Woofer to equal TD12m - AVS Forum
DIY Speakers and Subs > Woofer to equal TD12m
MX48's Avatar MX48 03:28 AM 09-27-2013
I am looking for a woofer to use in a future project and want TD12m quality without the 1 month+ wait.

I have looked on US Speaker and PE and there are many options out there. Would, for example purposes, the B&C 12 NDL76 or the FaitalPRO 12FH520 be equal replacements?

-I would be crossing to subs no lower than 80hz. and cross to the tweeters from 1000-1500.
-This would be an active W-T-W arrangement with a MiniDSP.
-Or are there advantages to a Tweeter on top with the 2 woofers side by side below. I can do either in my room.

Thanks for any help.
Moto

LTD02's Avatar LTD02 03:52 AM 09-27-2013
LTD02's Avatar LTD02 03:53 AM 09-27-2013
is it a full range project? what are you using for the top end?
MX48's Avatar MX48 04:10 AM 09-27-2013
Thanks for the link.
Don't you sleep?!

I usually don't put out all the info on an open forum as sooner or later (usually sooner) I show my ignorance.

However, this may help some other ignorant dufuss (sp?) so I will go ahead.

-I will cross to subs no lower than 80hz so no not full range.
-I have been wanting to try a ribbon tweeter and would love the TPL 150H but sadly it is out of my price range. Thinking about the CSS Planar 2.
-I have Deltalite 2512's now but have assumed that they were a step or 2 down from the TD's.
-Is it better to put the woofers side by side below the tweeter or W-T-W? I can do either in my room.

As always, thanks to you and everyone that has continued to help me and many others here.

Moto
LTD02's Avatar LTD02 04:33 AM 09-27-2013
"Thanks for the link.
Don't you sleep?!"

<-- sleep?


:-)


have you seen this?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1484902/creative-sound-solutions-planar-2-tweeter



also, have you tried the 2512/seos/dna360/bwaslo crossover combo?
MX48's Avatar MX48 04:43 AM 09-27-2013
Quote:

That is where I got the idea from. smile.gif

I am using a DNA 360/SEOS with two of the 2512's (active). I just am ready to try something different and was wondering what woofers were considered upgrades.

LTD02's Avatar LTD02 05:28 AM 09-27-2013
"I am using a DNA 360/SEOS with two of the 2512's (active). I just am ready to try something different and was wondering what woofers were considered upgrades."

i see.

have you taken a look at the 12nmb420 from 18sounds?
MX48's Avatar MX48 05:42 AM 09-27-2013
A quick search didn't show any place to buy it in the US.
Looks good tho.
servojohn's Avatar servojohn 07:09 AM 09-27-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by MX48 View Post

A quick search didn't show any place to buy it in the US.
Looks good tho.

18 Sound distribution is sketchy in the U.S., and I don't have a lot of confidence that it'll improve.

BMS, B&C, and Faital Pro are available, and make high quality products. It's a matter of seeing if they have one that suits your intended design.

Best regards,

John
tsloms's Avatar tsloms 07:38 AM 09-27-2013
In the tests that are in the link in post 2 the Faital Pro 12PR300 was tested and found to be closest of the group to the TD12M. I'm using them in my LCR's in my theater now and they sound very clear and punchy.
tuxedocivic's Avatar tuxedocivic 07:45 AM 09-27-2013
I've been eyeing the 10" Faital Pro 500 and 530 models since PE started carrying them. But they don't seem to offer a very good bass/sensitivity ratio. The 12" might be better.

I wouldn't do side by side woofers unless crossing VERY low. Like 600hz or something. I only have one experience with side by side drivers and the directivity was really strong.

I guess I should update my Planar 2 thread with my XO and photos. I keep forgetting redface.gif
MX48's Avatar MX48 07:56 AM 09-27-2013
Great, thanks for the help. Leading contender for now is the 12PR300, @ $215 it's not too bad. Good to know someone has used and liked them.

Will definitely go W-T-W which is what I have always done anyway.

Moto
LTD02's Avatar LTD02 08:05 AM 09-27-2013
just out of curiosity, is there some reason to believe that a superior driver to the 2512 or just different?
MX48's Avatar MX48 08:10 AM 09-27-2013
Quote:
just out of curiosity, is there some reason to believe that a superior driver to the 2512 or just different?

Would really be great if someone with experience with the 2 can answer that question. I already have 6 of these.
LTD02's Avatar LTD02 08:12 AM 09-27-2013
faital likes to "smush" their plots which is fine, just makes them difficult to compare to the eyeball.

here is the 2512 and the 12pr300 on the same scale.


tsloms's Avatar tsloms 08:19 AM 09-27-2013
There was an old thread on here a while back that compared the Faital and 2512. They were very close to each other but it was deemed that the Faital was easier to design a XO for since it does not have the response rise like the 2512.
MX48's Avatar MX48 08:41 AM 09-27-2013
Quote:
IMO it's hardly better than an Eminence Basslite 2012, and pales compared to a Deltalite II 2512.

This is a quote from a speaker designer on another forum discussing the Faital Pro PR300.
tsloms's Avatar tsloms 09:20 AM 09-27-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by MX48 View Post

This is a quote from a speaker designer on another forum discussing the Faital Pro PR300.

Did he perform testing to verify that the faital wasn't good? The link in that 2nd post does have several measurements to compare between the 2. I actually am using the exact 12pr300 that was tested back then. I have a pair of the 2512's in my garage speakers as well. The 2512 and 12pr300 are much more similar than different. For me as I said previously it was a matter of making for a simpler xo design which swayed my decision.
I'm putting 300 watts into the faitals and they sound great.
MX48's Avatar MX48 09:37 AM 09-27-2013
I really don't know how he came to that conclusion. I think the important part there is the IMO part.

I probably shouldn't have posted that without some sort of explanation.
MX48's Avatar MX48 11:43 AM 09-27-2013
How about the 2206H's.

They can be had on Ebay at reasonable prices.
LTD02's Avatar LTD02 11:57 AM 09-27-2013
it's not quite as delicate as some of the others, which is good and bad.
MX48's Avatar MX48 12:08 PM 09-27-2013
Quote:
it's not quite as delicate as some of the others, which is good and bad.

How do you mean?
LTD02's Avatar LTD02 12:12 PM 09-27-2013
the beefier coil leads to higher normalized inductance. the more rugged suspension is tighter. i mean it to be a great mid-woofer, but maybe not the first choice if that last bit of sound quality is what someone is shooting for.
MX48's Avatar MX48 12:13 PM 09-27-2013
OK, thanks.
John_E_Janowitz's Avatar John_E_Janowitz 03:32 PM 09-27-2013
Parameter wise, there are similarities with the 12PR300. They can work in the same size enclosure and have similar response curve. The Faital is really not a replacement though if you look at the measurements. It is a good driver as are many others. Once someone listens to the TD woofers though then tries to go back, they notice the huge differences. Quite simply there is no driver available that can do everything the TD12M can do from the low distortion, linearity, and high bandwidth without resonance. Unfortunately lead times are long because of the extensive process we go through here and the care we put into building them here in the US. It is hard to keep up with the demand when I am personally building most every driver.

As far as the comparison of the Faital goes, take a look through the measurements on drivervault and you will find the following:

The Faital has over 20dB more 3rd Harmonic Distortion than the TD12M everywhere in the midrange band.
There is nothing to linearize inductance in the Faital as evident in comparing the Le(x) curves between the two.
If you look at the CSD plot of the Faital there is a massive resonance at 2KHz due to the dustcap breakup
The multi tone distortions show huge increases in distortion in the Faital

https://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/driver-measurements/tang-band-75-1558se/ae-speakers-td12m/
https://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/driver-measurements/tang-band-75-1558se/faitalpro-12pr300


For an inexpensive ribbon to use, the Dayton AMTPRO-4 looks to be a good option and very reasonably priced. I haven't used one yet, but they look very promising. I intend to get a few soon to experiment with.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=275-094
MX48's Avatar MX48 03:41 PM 09-27-2013
Thanks John,
If it weren't for the long lead times I would undoubtedly go with the TD's.

Thanks for the response.
John_E_Janowitz's Avatar John_E_Janowitz 04:20 PM 09-27-2013
Just FYI, the last of the current DIY retail orders on our build list are in process and are expected to be finished next week. We had been waiting on steel parts that arrived back earlier this week. As those are finished up, I then have some room to be building over the next two weeks. An order placed now I would expect to ship by Oct 11 as long as a large amount of orders don't come in first.
Up
Mobile  Desktop