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post #1 of 33 Old 09-28-2013, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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So I have my BMS 4594 on the XR1464 horn and TD10X TMM speakers all finished up and am powering them with Crown XTI4002 on the woofers and XTI2002 on the 16 ohm 4594 through the BMS xo. I need to post pics of these soon!
They sound just incredible so far but I'm getting a bit of hiss on the horns with no input or even with the inputs shorted together.
What are my options in order to slink oat this hiss or at least greatly reduce it? Would a MiniDSP and different amp work better?
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post #2 of 33 Old 09-28-2013, 05:58 AM
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slick.

have you gone through and disconnected each piece of equipment one at a time in order to isolate which one is contributing the noise? for example, do you get any noise from the driver when the amp is plugged in to the power, but no other cables are plugged into it?

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post #3 of 33 Old 09-28-2013, 06:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I've completely disconnected the inputs from the amp and even shorted the inputs of the amp and there is no change. I also tried a cheater plug with no change.
Is it possible that my 2002 is just a noisy amp? One thing I could try is to plug in my 4002 to the BMS to see if that one is noisy. That would point to an amp issue. Btw I also have a 40uf cap on the BMS for protection in addition to the internal xo in the amps.
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post #4 of 33 Old 09-28-2013, 06:18 AM
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"Is it possible that my 2002 is just a noisy amp?"

i was just looking at that. it is spec'd at >100 db signal to noise, a weighted, at 800 watts, which means it could be down around 71db actual with no signal. that's kind of at the low end for s/n among pro amps.

have you tried switching amps? i assume you don't have any fluorescent lights or dimmers on the power circuit.

might even try switching circuits, just for kicks.

worst case, a resistor may help.

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post #5 of 33 Old 09-28-2013, 06:32 AM
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also, does it change if you turn the gains all the way up or down?

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post #6 of 33 Old 09-28-2013, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I was hoping that using the amp into the 16 ohm load would help with noise.
I was testing in my garage with no lights on just yesterday. I will try to run a cord into my house to try a different circuit. I think the hiss stayed the same with different gains but I'll have to double check that tomorrow when I get home.
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post #7 of 33 Old 09-28-2013, 09:55 AM
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The noise from your amp is expected...no need to play around with different outlets.

How loud do you like to listen? The Crown D75 is one of the quietest amps around and won't break the bank.

-Mike Bentz
~It's all about compromise~
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post #8 of 33 Old 09-28-2013, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBentz View Post

The noise from your amp is expected...no need to play around with different outlets.

How loud do you like to listen? The Crown D75 is one of the quietest amps around and won't break the bank.
Id like to have perhaps 100 watts or so to each 4594 as I do like to crank them up on occasion. That's the reason for 1200w per channel on the woofers.
I'm currently using the DSP in the 2002 for XO and eq. Is there an option in a newer amp that has built in DSP and 100w ish of power. Otherwise I'd need to get a MiniDSP and an amp.
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post #9 of 33 Old 09-28-2013, 12:42 PM
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Try running the latest firmware, and also boost the BP gain and lower the output gain.

For giggles you could even try adding a 20khz filter.

That's about all you can do...

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post #10 of 33 Old 09-28-2013, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I do have the latest firmware on the amp already. I have tried lowering the attenuators in the software and there is no change unless I mute the output. I haven't tried changing the attenuation level by the external knobs but I assume they will not improve things at all. I'm thinking a different amp may be in order but I just need to find the right one for my needs.
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post #11 of 33 Old 09-28-2013, 02:41 PM
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sometimes the attenuators/gain controls can introduce noise if not "full up", which is why I mentioned it.

others have reduced noise by adding a series inductor in line with the driver, but that would be the last thing on my list before swapping out amps.

ati amps have the highest s/n ratios that i have seen. the emotive upa-500 also tested *extremely* well for noise.

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post #12 of 33 Old 09-28-2013, 04:51 PM
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http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-383 I always liked this little guy driving the mids and highs of some JBL 3731. Your BMS coax is hugely efficient you won't need anything approaching 100 watts even at ridiculous levels.
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post #13 of 33 Old 09-28-2013, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

So I have my BMS 4594 on the XR1464 horn and TD10X TMM speakers all finished up and am powering them with Crown XTI4002 on the woofers and XTI2002 on the 16 ohm 4594 through the BMS xo. I need to post pics of these soon!
They sound just incredible so far but I'm getting a bit of hiss on the horns with no input or even with the inputs shorted together.
What are my options in order to slink oat this hiss or at least greatly reduce it? Would a MiniDSP and different amp work better?

just build a 15db lpad and call it a day should cut all of the noise. just build it so it can handle 50 or so watts i would use caddock resistors and mount it to some sheet metal.
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post #14 of 33 Old 09-28-2013, 10:44 PM
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what impedance is used in the calculation?

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post #15 of 33 Old 09-29-2013, 03:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

what impedance is used in the calculation?

Excellent question. Would it be necessary to use the impedance at the XO point? If so I have a DATS coming since my last one crapped out on me. Parts Express support is the best!!
Currently I have the 2002 attenuation set to -16db in the amp so that the knobs on the front can be set to wide open so it looks like I would be nearly right on with a -15db lpad.

Would adding an lpad hurt the sound quality at all?
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post #16 of 33 Old 09-29-2013, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

So I have my BMS 4594 on the XR1464 horn and TD10X TMM speakers all finished up and am powering them with Crown XTI4002 on the woofers and XTI2002 on the 16 ohm 4594 through the BMS xo. I need to post pics of these soon!
They sound just incredible so far but I'm getting a bit of hiss on the horns with no input or even with the inputs shorted together.
What are my options in order to slink oat this hiss or at least greatly reduce it? Would a MiniDSP and different amp work better?

Get a smaller amp for the tweeters.

Your BMS 4594 has 118 dB sensitivity.

Your TD10X has : 92dB sensitivity.

Ask your third grader to subtract the two, because obviously you haven't! ;-)

OK, I'll take pity on you, the difference is 26 dB. ;-)

That is a power difference of 400 to 1. Four freaking hundred to one (1)!!!!!

Depending what the wavegude does to the sensitivity of the horn driver (might even knock off 10 dB), the tweeter amp that compares with your woofer amp would be something like a XTi0100, if Crown made such a thing.! In all seriousness, a 50-100 watt amp for the tweeter would give you a ton of headroom.

Active speaker design 101: Size the power amps for the efficiency of the drivers, at least just a little. 2:1 doesn't make it when you are using speakers whose efficiency is 400:1 different.

Think of it this way, you need a motobike motor for the tweeter, and you put in a 800 HP NASCAR Sprint Cup engine, and now you are complaining about it being loud at idle. ;-)
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post #17 of 33 Old 09-29-2013, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

what impedance is used in the calculation?

Excellent question. Would it be necessary to use the impedance at the XO point? If so I have a DATS coming since my last one crapped out on me. Parts Express support is the best!!
Currently I have the 2002 attenuation set to -16db in the amp so that the knobs on the front can be set to wide open so it looks like I would be nearly right on with a -15db lpad.

Would adding an lpad hurt the sound quality at all?

The problem with L pads for speakers is that their source impedance to the speaker driver is relatively high and depends strongly on the amount of attenuation. Driving a speaker with a high efficiency source adds another potentially very significant source of frequency response variations.

If you are going to eventually apply system equalization and not change the setting of the L pad without redoing the equalization, this could work.

The impedance of a horn driver can be strongly affected by the waveguide, so I won't even hazard a guess what it is.

Here is what appears to be a good L-pad calcuator:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm

I plug in 8 ohm (which turns out to be its input impedance) 15 dB attenuation, and its source impedance eyeballs out to be about 1.5 ohms. This could change the response of your tweeter/driver combination by a few dB. That is the order of magnitude of the problem with L-pads in your application. What it means to you is up to you.

L pads have lower source impedance the more attenuation you design into them, but in your case I wouldn't even try to go past 20 dB.

There are other kinds of attenuators - T pad being an example. T-pads. However T-pads are designed to produce a higher source impedance, so that added complexity goes the wrong way for your application.
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post #18 of 33 Old 09-29-2013, 04:25 AM
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I dont know much about passive crossovers/filters, but would it not be possible to "dump" some power in a passive filter without affecting the SQ of the tweeter. That way more power would be delivered to the speaker (tweeter arrangement) and the total S/N ratio would rise.

EDIT: Never mind :-)
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post #19 of 33 Old 09-29-2013, 05:02 AM
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good points, but doesn't answer the question of which impedance to use in the equation to size the resistors. the nominal impedance is 16 ohms. is that what is used or is it the minimum impedance or some other value?

also, other than a minor change in frequency response, which can be eq'd out no problem in an active system, are there any other problems introduced by an L-pad assuming the resistors are sized appropriately to dissipate the heat?

"Think of it this way, you need a motobike motor for the tweeter, and you put in a 800 HP NASCAR Sprint Cup engine, and now you are complaining about it being loud at idle. ;-)"

that's why we have mufflers and they drop spl by much more than 16db. :-)~

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post #20 of 33 Old 09-29-2013, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

good points, but doesn't answer the question of which impedance to use in the equation to size the resistors. the nominal impedance is 16 ohms. is that what is used or is it the minimum impedance or some other value?

Under the conditions (power to burn) as low as possible to get the flattest possible frequency response. Measuring the impedance of the driver on the horn could form a good guide. I would seriously consider 8,4 maybe even 2 ohms. You need to keep the wattage up which raises some other issues. The kind of wirewound resistors we commonly use in speaker systems generally have a huge positive temperature coefficient. We're talking big Dale or Arco non-inductive precision resistors with big wattages.
Quote:
also, other than a minor change in frequency response, which can be eq'd out no problem in an active system, are there any other problems introduced by an L-pad assuming the resistors are sized appropriately to dissipate the heat?

Nothing comes to mind. Padding tweeters down is one of the oldest problems in speaker system design. This time the problem is on steroids.
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"Think of it this way, you need a motorbike motor for the tweeter, and you put in a 800 HP NASCAR Sprint Cup engine, and now you are complaining about it being loud at idle. ;-)"

That's why we have mufflers and they drop spl by much more than 16db. :-)~

Sorry man, but adequately muffling an 800 Hp racing engine is a non-trivial pursuit. ;-)
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post #21 of 33 Old 09-29-2013, 05:27 AM
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thanks.

"Sorry man, but adequately muffling an 800 Hp racing engine is a non-trivial pursuit. ;-)"

you said idle...not w.o.t. :-)~

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post #22 of 33 Old 09-29-2013, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Keep in mind that I have a pair of the 10X's in parallel so each tower will be nearly 99db of sensitivity at 4 ohms with 1200 watts pushing them. The horns are 118db of sensitivity at 16 ohms with maybe 275-300 pushing them so the differential isn't quite that bad. An XTI1002 would surely decrease the lpad needed or perhaps eliminate it altogether.

I was mainly looking to use amps that had built in DSP to simplify my wiring as these will be living room speakers and if like to keep a tidy av rack. I'll begin with taking measurements of the BMS on the horn to see what the impedance is across the operating range of the cd. From that I'll build an lpad to pad it down slightly. Of course after that I'll tweak the eq to bring the response back inline.
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post #23 of 33 Old 09-29-2013, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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It looks like I'll either need a super quiet amp and a MiniDSP to quiet the system down or the aforementioned Lpad. I'll see what I have for resistors laying around to see if I can experiment with padding these down.

I checked the hiss level with my SPL meter all the way inside the horn with no signal applied to the amps. My Rane MA6S was not tested. Below is a list of the amps I have laying around:

Crown XTI4002 62db
Crown XTI2002 (currently using) 62db
Crown XLS2000 61db
NAD 3155 preamp/amp 56db
Sure 4x50W T amp 56db
Older Dayton similar to DTA-1 56db
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post #24 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

good points, but doesn't answer the question of which impedance to use in the equation to size the resistors. the nominal impedance is 16 ohms. is that what is used or is it the minimum impedance or some other value?

A 20 dB improvement would get you 1/4 as much hiss, so lets go with a 20 dB pad

Zin= 16 ohms Zout about 1.6 ohms, damping factor = 10

Zin= 8 ohms Zout about 0.8 ohms, damping factor = 20

Zin = 4 ohms Zout about 0.4 ohms damping factor = 40

Zin = 2 ohms Zout about 0.2 ohms damping factor = 80

8 or 4 ohms seems just fine.

Parts value calculator at http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm
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post #25 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 07:13 AM
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i'm not following what you are saying arny.

the device in question is a nominal 16 ohm driver. it that what goes in for "speaker impedance" or is it some other value such as the minimum measured impedance of the speaker?

if we use the nominal impedance 16 ohms for the driver, and the 20db of attenuation that you suggest, this is what we get:



when you say "8 or 4 ohms seems just fine." how/where is that an option unless changing to completely different driver?

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post #26 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
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i'm not following what you are saying arny.

the device in question is a nominal 16 ohm driver. it that what goes in for "speaker impedance" or is it some other value such as the minimum measured impedance of the speaker?

if we use the nominal impedance 16 ohms for the driver, and the 20db of attenuation that you suggest, this is what we get:



when you say "8 or 4 ohms seems just fine." how/where is that an option unless changing to completely different driver?

The point is that the attenuator will serve your purposes even if you design it for a lower impedance driver. The attenuation won't be exactly 20.00 dB, but it will be close.

The benefit of designing the attenuator for a lower impedance is that you get a better damping factor or in other words fewer frequency response variations due to any variations in the impedance curve of your tweeter driver.
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post #27 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 07:47 AM
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got it. that makes it clear. thanks arny.

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post #28 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 07:50 AM
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now for double jeopardy...if damping factor is zin/zout, why are the damping factors increasing and not all just constant at 10?

Zin= 16 ohms Zout about 1.6 ohms, damping factor = 10

Zin= 8 ohms Zout about 0.8 ohms, damping factor = 20

Zin = 4 ohms Zout about 0.4 ohms damping factor = 40

Zin = 2 ohms Zout about 0.2 ohms damping factor = 80

or did you mean to put the nominal 16 ohms in for all of those like this?

Zin= 16 ohms Zout about 1.6 ohms, damping factor = 10

Zin= 16 ohms Zout about 0.8 ohms, damping factor = 20

Zin = 16 ohms Zout about 0.4 ohms damping factor = 40

Zin = 16 ohms Zout about 0.2 ohms damping factor = 80

so, just so that i have it, using the 4 ohm l-pad, for example, with the 16 ohm driver, gives zout of 0.4 ohms, so 16/0.4 = damping factor of 40.


EDIT: i think i figured out what you meant now.

Using the 16 ohm driver configured with the following l-pad arrangements from the calculator gives:

Zin= 16 ohms Zout about 1.6 ohms, damping factor = 10

Zin= 8 ohms Zout about 0.8 ohms, damping factor = 20

Zin = 4 ohms Zout about 0.4 ohms damping factor = 40

Zin = 2 ohms Zout about 0.2 ohms damping factor = 80

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post #29 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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What would be the best type of resistor to use for this? They will need to dissipate quite a bit of wattage to attenuate that much.
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post #30 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 04:45 PM
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Mini DSP and a 10wx2 Sonic T amp, or Dayton brand T amp.

YID DIY
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