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post #271 of 512 Old 01-05-2014, 12:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

So you have the clone on a 30amp breaker?

not sure if you can see the AC on the wall...its 220v. I will be pulling 220 into the equipment room but in the meantime I will be using the AC outlet after I swap plugs
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post #272 of 512 Old 01-05-2014, 02:57 AM
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The back of the amp says 110v, unless that's a china-ism (they rarely bother to reprint labels correctly).

I guess you'd only need a 15-20amp breaker then.
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post #273 of 512 Old 01-05-2014, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to have to seek more info because the manual says 110-120 or 200-240 but the back of the amp says 110. I prefer 220v.... My other amps will run at 220
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post #274 of 512 Old 01-05-2014, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by 316 View Post

Central valley.......got any test equipment biggrin.gif

I do....but I haven't learned how to use it yet. In waiting to finish my build to dive into REW.

My dual sealed LMS 5400 Ultra build
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...0-build-4.html
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post #275 of 512 Old 01-05-2014, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post

I do....but I haven't learned how to use it yet. In waiting to finish my build to dive into REW.

No problem, I'll try and arrange it so we can all meet together on the same day and learn from each other?


Also, thanks to the guys at the Clone forum, got the amp figured out:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1334237/lab-gruppen-fp14000-clone-amplifiers/3800_100#post_24163742


And special thanks to LTD02 for the PM!!

As you all can tell I'm methodically going through this process, I want to make sure everything is spot on before powering up the "Bass Cannons" and again many thanks to you all for your input and encouragement (and patience) !! smile.gif
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post #276 of 512 Old 01-06-2014, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh my head....oh it hurts! biggrin.gif Too much BASS eek.gif

I swear in the course of a few hours these things loosened up a lot! By the time I called it quits the tracks were rattling everything. Two tracks in particular "This is for the lover in you" by Babyface, and "Red light special" by TLC were just moving the walls! I opened up the patio door and went outside and the sound was so solid with big hitting bass, deep bass felt from outside, hard to describe but you could tell it had authority.

Okay let me contain my excitement a little bit and backup. I tested and verified the drivers as shown in the pics

4ohm load on both pairs (top & bottom)






Wired in series for 8ohm load




Removed jumpers otherwise I would have a 3.2 load or somewhere along those lines, can't remember the exact measurement but you get the point (two 4ohms loads paralleled are not 2 ohms)



Not the ideal location but this is all preliminary okay...im just testing the drivers and setup and breaking in the drivers



Now for the important part...what amp was I using? Sorry, not the FP14000.... I was using my Crown 2500 at 500watts per channel on an 8ohm load biggrin.gif and the "Bass Cannon's" are doing what at 500wpc!? eek.gif

Other tidbits, filter set at 12db, 80hz, played with it up to 200hz but the crown could not handle that at a decent volume. What I did find out thus far (will need more time, and the FP14000 hooked up etc to verify), is that I'm not getting the slam that I want in the upper bass region. Bottom end is going to be fine as predicted but I think I might have to go with the JBL2242's, The 3722's don't cut it on their own. I'm a little disappointed to be honest but that's with music. With movies I have no problem with them at all so they do what they are designed to do, and they do it well, but music is another story.

Remember my goal is to try (and it may not be attainable) to have a system that kicks a$$ with music and movies. I'm not expecting out of music what I would with a dedicated 2 speaker setup like I had with my Acoustat 2+2's and my 4-12" subs, or my Beveridge electrostats and my subs but I'm only saying this to make the point that I know what a good musical system and soundstage sounds like and no, I do not expect that with this system but I know I can get the music part to sound a lot better. The real test will come when I break out the jazz tracks and start listening to some real music and I have not even opened up my music collection yet smile.gif

The room is also my enemy right now but all that will be tamed when I build the HT but even in its current state I should be hitting higher highs and harder mids

, yeah I know some of you guys think I've lost my mind, lol but trust me, I still have a few brain cells left, lol. I know what my goal is that's all Im sayin...getting there is another story

JBL 2404H "baby cheeks" should be here in a few days. I need to get the top to extend more than it is... although its better than before, its still lacking, and my ears keep reminding my brain of that fact.

Will play around for a few days with the Crown until my XLR cables get here then I'm going to fire up the FP1400...I'm also planning on playing with the EP4000's in a dual 4ohm setup, one amp per cabinet. I will "calibrate" voltages. So basically I'm going to have some fun playing with different amps and verify for myself what has the best feel with the subs, if that makes sense.
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post #277 of 512 Old 01-06-2014, 06:46 PM
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Damn!
Perfect! Great job! They look bad ass in their new home!

You will have no problem getting enough output there...provided you can get enough power to 'em.

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post #278 of 512 Old 01-06-2014, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! Yeah I'm sure you're correct smile.gif The only thing really bugging me is the midbass and the highs....I can't wait to hear what some real power is going to do though ! biggrin.gif
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post #279 of 512 Old 01-06-2014, 07:30 PM
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Awesome 316! Lots of good feedback from the group! Kick a$$. biggrin.gif
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post #280 of 512 Old 01-06-2014, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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tongue.gif You played a big part in it....
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post #281 of 512 Old 01-06-2014, 07:43 PM
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Hey. For more slam, try putting a whole bunch of EQ right around 120hz with a nice steep slope. A parametric EQ will do this best. Also, try easing up on the 12db and go to six db and cross over higher. You are just playing right now.

How do your neighbors like you? biggrin.gif:D
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post #282 of 512 Old 01-06-2014, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
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It was a strategic "bass hit" I was in and out before they knew it biggrin.gif
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post #283 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

Oh my head....oh it hurts! biggrin.gif Too much BASS eek.gif

I swear in the course of a few hours these things loosened up a lot! By the time I called it quits the tracks were rattling everything. Two tracks in particular "This is for the lover in you" by Babyface, and "Red light special" by TLC were just moving the walls! I opened up the patio door and went outside and the sound was so solid with big hitting bass, deep bass felt from outside, hard to describe but you could tell it had authority.

Okay let me contain my excitement a little bit and backup. I tested and verified the drivers as shown in the pics

4ohm load on both pairs (top & bottom)






Wired in series for 8ohm load




Removed jumpers otherwise I would have a 3.2 load or somewhere along those lines, can't remember the exact measurement but you get the point (two 4ohms loads paralleled are not 2 ohms)



Not the ideal location but this is all preliminary okay...im just testing the drivers and setup and breaking in the drivers



Now for the important part...what amp was I using? Sorry, not the FP14000.... I was using my Crown 2500 at 500watts per channel on an 8ohm load biggrin.gif and the "Bass Cannon's" are doing what at 500wpc!? eek.gif

Other tidbits, filter set at 12db, 80hz, played with it up to 200hz but the crown could not handle that at a decent volume. What I did find out thus far (will need more time, and the FP14000 hooked up etc to verify), is that I'm not getting the slam that I want in the upper bass region. Bottom end is going to be fine as predicted but I think I might have to go with the JBL2242's, The 3722's don't cut it on their own. I'm a little disappointed to be honest but that's with music. With movies I have no problem with them at all so they do what they are designed to do, and they do it well, but music is another story.

Remember my goal is to try (and it may not be attainable) to have a system that kicks a$$ with music and movies. I'm not expecting out of music what I would with a dedicated 2 speaker setup like I had with my Acoustat 2+2's and my 4-12" subs, or my Beveridge electrostats and my subs but I'm only saying this to make the point that I know what a good musical system and soundstage sounds like and no, I do not expect that with this system but I know I can get the music part to sound a lot better. The real test will come when I break out the jazz tracks and start listening to some real music and I have not even opened up my music collection yet smile.gif

The room is also my enemy right now but all that will be tamed when I build the HT but even in its current state I should be hitting higher highs and harder mids

, yeah I know some of you guys think I've lost my mind, lol but trust me, I still have a few brain cells left, lol. I know what my goal is that's all Im sayin...getting there is another story

JBL 2404H "baby cheeks" should be here in a few days. I need to get the top to extend more than it is... although its better than before, its still lacking, and my ears keep reminding my brain of that fact.

Will play around for a few days with the Crown until my XLR cables get here then I'm going to fire up the FP1400...I'm also planning on playing with the EP4000's in a dual 4ohm setup, one amp per cabinet. I will "calibrate" voltages. So basically I'm going to have some fun playing with different amps and verify for myself what has the best feel with the subs, if that makes sense.

What are your plans for the JBL-2404h high frequency compression driver? Are you planning on adding it to the top end of your JBL-2404h used as a super tweeter? Or are you building something totally different?

I wish that we could see more builds with those various JBL's and have discussion on how the JBL stuff, such as your 2404h's, compares to the other stuff out there, such as compression drivers from BMS, Radian, DNA-360, B&C, ect...

Also, last question! What were you thinking about with regards to using the JBL-2242? Mid-bass cabinets, perhaps?
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post #284 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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" What are your plans for the JBL-2404h high frequency compression driver? Are you planning on adding it to the top end of your JBL-2404h used as a super tweeter?"

Yes, above the horn, as a super tweeter



I wish that we could see more builds with those various JBL's and have discussion on how the JBL stuff, such as your 2404h's, compares to the other stuff out there, such as compression drivers from BMS, Radian, DNA-360, B&C, ect...

Beyma CP25 is the Spanish version of the 2404H and much cheaper but I'm going full JBL. Parts express had another version from Beyma that was similar to the 2404H ("H" designates 8ohm) that sold for 30.00 each at the buyout special...someone scored on those!! I hear the Beyma is hard to tame though.



Also, last question! What were you thinking about with regards to using the JBL-2242? Mid-bass cabinets, perhaps?"


Exactly. I'm going to play with the crossover points first but I believe because the 2242 is a totally different type of driver and more "snappier" with higher output for the type of bass I'm looking for in the mid, the horn will also help bring it out if I understand correctly. Now if I had a horn type loaded cabinet I think the lense would make the "snap" more pronounced on the 2242. (A challenge someone?) Hopefully an expert can chime in here, I'm not real technical with all the terms but I know the sound when I hear it and I don't think the SI18's will ever deliver because they have too much mass with that rubber surround. Besides I think its hard if not impossible to get one driver to play two different types of bass. How can it grunt the bottom end while at the same time snapping the lower mid? Again its just my understanding of it in laymans terms... I will be gathering more info. LTD02 also mentioned the 18sound as a possibility.

Another thing I was considering last night was 4-EP4000's in bridge mode would give me 2kwatts per driver and really handle that mass from the SI18's.... That would deliver more than the LG clone and from what I understand the EP4000 is a more dependable amp and laughs at 2ohm loads...just thinking out loud here smile.gif
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post #285 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 10:23 AM
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Just addressing your plan regarding additional power. I also have 8 SI 18s in sealed boxes driven by one FP14K at 4ohms per side. A relatively small sealed box is a worst case scenario on an amp because it typically requires a lot of boost down low which chews up amp power. I've only seen a clip light once and that was listening to TIH just shy of reference. The SIs don't require a lot of power to get going in the first place and in your configuration just loafing along even more.
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post #286 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, yes I remember in the back of my mind you saying that in a previous post. Looking back I think my biggest mistake was buying the SI4 instead of the SI2. Now because of the 8ohm load per side I am going to be way overpowered or underpowered.

With the Crown for example it is underpowered at 500wpc (125w per driver)

If I bridge the FP14000 it may not be able to handle the bridged 4ohm load if I parallel the two cabinets at 8 ohms (which btw, is my ideal scenario) I would be looking theoretically (paper watts based on amp claims, not actual measurements) at 1625w per driver which would be fine and I could live with that but because I'm worried about the amp running it bridged at 4ohms.

Running the FP1400 at stereo 8ohms I drop to 587w per driver which is way better than the 125w per driver with the crown but way down from the 1625wpd.
If I would have bought the SI2 I would be cruising at 1100wpd which is right where I would be content I think. But that cannot happen with the FP14000 because of the 8ohm load per cabinet.

So...what I am left to deal with is this:
587wpd (not reaching my goal) with the FP14000 in stereo mode or,


Enter EP4000,

700wpd in stereo with one amp driving one cabinet at two 4ohm loads per side (which is why I left that option open in wiring the cabinets) Under goal.
bridged with two amps per cabinet at 4ohms I would end up with 2,000wpd (overpowered)
bridged at one amp per cabinet at 8phms 700wpd (not reaching my goal, underpowered)

Now if I would have planed better with the SI2 I would be done with almost any amp/driver combination so with my current amp/driver combinations I have 3 options:
587wpd single FP14000 stereo mode
700wpd dual Behringer EP4000 stero mode
1625wpd (putting the FP1400 at risk)

Again, paper power, actual watts per driver will be less. I will be trying the 3 combinations because that is what I have and it very well could be that everything will be fine BUT, at least I know that I have an "ace in the hole" (because of the way the cabinets are wired) with the option of adding two more EP4000 amps or one more FP14000 eek.gif

Based on your comments the 587wpd or 700wpd might very well be enough, the 125wpd sure is makin a whole lot of shakin biggrin.gif ........I shall see, er hear, lol smile.gif
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post #287 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 03:43 PM
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I have 1100 watts going to my si18 d4 and I think that is the ideal amount . However with 8 of those bad boys I think sending 500-600 watts will be just fine. smile.gif
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post #288 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Just addressing your plan regarding additional power. I also have 8 SI 18s in sealed boxes driven by one FP14K at 4ohms per side. A relatively small sealed box is a worst case scenario on an amp because it typically requires a lot of boost down low which chews up amp power. I've only seen a clip light once and that was listening to TIH just shy of reference. The SIs don't require a lot of power to get going in the first place and in your configuration just loafing along even more.

That is where we differ other than the sealed vs the ported. I have 8ohms per side.
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post #289 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I have 1100 watts going to my si18 d4 and I think that is the ideal amount . However with 8 of those bad boys I think sending 500-600 watts will be just fine. smile.gif

Yeah for some reason I just don't feel warm and fuzzy knowing I don't have at least that amount per driver which is what I would have if not for the SI4's...it's just really eating at me..LOL biggrin.gif

I know from my car stereo days what a difference it makes when you have a lot of power behind that driver to manipulate that cone. It does not mean you will use it all but at least the headroom is there in case you need it when called upon.
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post #290 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 04:51 PM
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That is where we differ other than the sealed vs the ported. I have 8ohms per side.
I gotcha now, I didn't realize that before. smile.gif
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post #291 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay guys, some more info.

First I must say that the FP14000 is totally useless...if its in the same room with you! LOL. That fan IS LOUD!!!!!! eek.gifeek.gif

But, the good news,

IT KICKS SOME SERIOUS A$$ BIG TIME BOOTY!! eek.gif

Okay for those of you who have flown in an airplane. When you take off with a prop driven plane you can feel the power as you are lifting off, compare that to a Jet. The power is felt by both but with a jet you can feel the raw power behind that plane, now that's not even close to the difference between the 125wpd and the 587wpd I am now getting with the FP14000....what the heck does 700 or 1100 feel like!!??? WOW !!! eek.gif

This time it literally scared me at first!! I though my windows were going to blow out and this is not hyperbole! Oh man this is NUTS!!


Okay, another thing I found out which is very important, the 3722's need LOTS of power to come alive. For giggles I hooked up my Emotiva XPA3 and it pumps 325wpc on a 4ohm load. It could not handle the 3722 and sounded so veiled it was offensive. I plugged the crown 2500 back in and Bam! Opened up with authority but still missing on top but you get my point....So I will bridge my two 2500's and see if they open up even more. Some speakers are like that, they just like lots of power to come alive.

I thought the JBL's could cruise at low power but really they do not perform properly with low power and as thought, the Crown is a good match with that speaker which I assumed they would be since they come from the same family. Now I'm not saying other amps won't pair up well with the 3722, just saying in my case the Crown works best and seems like a good match. I'll have to check the spec sheet because it could be that bridging the 2500's might present a problem at 4ohms...we'll see.

UPDATE: Crown XLI2500:
- Power Output:
- - 4 Ohms Stereo: 750 watts per channel (my setup)
- - 8 Ohms Stereo: 500 watts per channel
- - 8 Ohms Bridge Mono: 1,500 watts (probably safe to not push it at 4ohms bridged)

I have a feeling that JBL is protecting that horn with their crossover network. I have heard that the drivers a built like tanks and one supplier has never heard of anyone ordering replacement drivers (woofers) but that horn is another story, I bet they are filtering the heck out of it. It runs parallel to the LFE section on the bottom so how much power is actually getting through the network? Hmm, sounds like a bi-amp is in order??
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post #292 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 06:35 PM
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Now that's a much improved progress report! At the beginning of the FP thread there is a link to mod the fans.
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post #293 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 06:43 PM
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"Oh man this is NUTS!!"

Awesome! I think that is about the level of bass you were after! Do the cannons dig deep? How do you think they will do for home theater?
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post #294 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
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You know with fan mods I normally dismiss them because some guys are so anal with fan noise which is okay, I'm just speaking the truth here, not judging, but with me I have never really heard a fan that is offensive..until now. I can understand someone complaining about this fan noise but to complain about the noise that comes from my 2500,,,is just nuts. I'm sorry but really its a night and day difference. Even when my fans kick on high they are silent especially when compared to the FP14000. The good news is that my gear will be in a separate room so I will probably never hear it but thanks for the heads up on the fan mod.

The same thing applies to my projectors with fan noise...its really a non issue with me. THIS, is an issue if you had the FP14000 in the same room that you are in. I'm curious what the EP4000's will sound like. No way they can be this loud.
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post #295 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

"Oh man this is NUTS!!"

Awesome! I think that is about the level of bass you were after! Do the cannons dig deep? How do you think they will do for home theater?


do they dig deep? lol, is a smurfs butt blue? biggrin.giftongue.gif Joel, I've only listened to music and its insane why would I want more....I'm like a bass junkie, I do! LOL

I'm done playing for the day but maybe tomorrow I'll pop in WOW and see how they do.
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post #296 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 07:02 PM
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do they dig deep? lol, is a smurfs butt blue? biggrin.giftongue.gif Joel, I've only listened to music and its insane why would I want more....I'm like a bass junkie, I do! LOL

Kick a$$. tongue.gif
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post #297 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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excellent.

LTD02, your design is da bomb!!! biggrin.gif
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post #298 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by 316 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

excellent.

LTD02, your design is da bomb!!! biggrin.gif

That guy has dozens of happy people including me enjoying bass every night smile.gif
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post #299 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 09:20 PM
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That guy has dozens of happy people including me enjoying bass every night smile.gif

That's the reason his name is carved into the sides of these beauties!
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post #300 of 512 Old 01-07-2014, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

do they dig deep? lol, is a smurfs butt blue? biggrin.giftongue.gif Joel, I've only listened to music and its insane why would I want more....I'm like a bass junkie, I do! LOL

I'm done playing for the day but maybe tomorrow I'll pop in WOW and see how they do.

Do you have any measuring gear to see what kind of output you're getting?

I'm just curious because the build that I'm going to do is a slightly smaller build and is somewhat modelled after your build.
I read that your room is 16ft wide but what are the other dimensions? I'm just trying to gauge the size of your room, and compare it to the size of my room.
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