If money is no object what would be the best DIY sub for home thester now? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 112 Old 11-02-2013, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Maybe he is sitting in a -30db null at 110hz and he doesn't even know it, or some such...."

what we do know is that at 110hz, the dts with a 4th order low pass at 80 should still be contributing about 2db worth of spl (but it is zero) and the mains have about a 5db spl gap in the 100-200hz ballpark, so that's 7db right there. and given that +10db relative to the higher frequencies wouldn't be completely out of line around 100hz or so for subjectively good sound, that is 17db off target. as was mentioned, reflections off the boundaries are likely killing things too. could have 1 or more big cancellations in the 100-150hz ballpark. but even with reflections eliminated as an issue, there is still 17db +/- missing. i'm surprised this fact isn't being given more attention.

So with that being said. What would you recommend to fill in for the 100hz to 200hz sections? Perhaps mid-bass cabs? If the DTS-10 drops off like a rock at 100hz, then I see no other possibility. I would just build some sealed cabs with the JBL-2225's or 2226's or, if money is no object, 2242's.
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post #92 of 112 Old 11-03-2013, 01:27 AM
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Can't just use EQ and boost the SH50's 100-200Hz range approx +5db??
SH69 dual 12's don't have enough punch? and 6 12's total with the SH50's .... I couldn't imagine not having enough chest slam with 6 12's covering that range eek.gif
On second hand maybe that range is covered by all the 5" drivers. That could be an issue to me.

I've three 10's covering that range; sure sure could always use more but how much is enough.

Come on MX48 do your stuff!

"I should really see what dB levels I'm pushing. Long as it can't foam my beer during a movie we are ok "
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post #93 of 112 Old 11-03-2013, 05:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I cant wait to have mx48 over to try his magic. Then I will know if I need to buy a extra sub to fill.
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post #94 of 112 Old 11-03-2013, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I cant wait to have mx48 over to try his magic. Then I will know if I need to buy a extra sub to fill.

Is that today? If at all possible, take notes to share

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post #95 of 112 Old 11-03-2013, 06:18 AM
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No, not today. We are going to work out a time in the next month or so.

Just to be clear I am not a professional calibrator so I don't know how much "magic" there will be. And I won't be charging Kutlow a fee just fuel money from SE Georgia to Central Alabama. I do have extensive use of REW and the MiniDSP, and EQ my own system with multiple subs and active speakers. Now whether it is done correctly I have no way of knowing since I haven't heard any systems beside my own and have never had anyone here that really knows what they are doing. Having said that it sounds great to me but we know how subjective that can be as well as the placebo effect of having done it myself.

Of course I can read an REW graph smile.gif and of course will immediately see if there is a big hole in the punch area. Kutlow may not be satisfied with anything less than a nearfield sub, which I am not sure he has room for anyway. He could play it at 140 db's to get the punch eek.gif, but how long can anyone really listen at that level and still be able to hear the next day.

Hopefully we can set up a time before the end of the month.

Moto
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post #96 of 112 Old 11-03-2013, 08:24 AM
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Well, I did recomend eq could solve his problem, but only if hes willing to sacrifice 5 to 7 db in peak output.
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post #97 of 112 Old 11-03-2013, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I do enjoy all the speculation, but until the room/system is measured properly, we can't be certain what's going on. I can't imagine more cabinets, or different cabinets, would be needed. I'd focus any expenditures on bass trapping.


Placement overview

SBIR (the 80-200 region, diffracts and folds back into the adjacent boundaries, then returns to blend destructively with the direct sound)

Crossover points (utilize whatever combo is nessesary to assure region of interest is adequately reproduced)

Time alignment (assure both sub system and mains are working in concert) (secondarily, often different low pass filters can help with disparate subs, manipulating how all the sources sum)

System EQ (as a last step)

System optimization is an iterative process, and can be tedious. Once thru the list, you have to constantly go back thru each respective control point, again and again,... zeroing in on the desired result. Each element is dependent on the others, resulting in a nearly infinitely variable number of combinations. The diligence pays off, and I'd guess very few really pursue it far enough.
---

Acoustically, bass traps damp the LF, tightening up the LF decay times, increasing punch, detail, note to note delineation.




Question about time alignment. Am I accomplishing that if I use the minidsp to adjust delay times on my subs while watching omnimic sweeps until the frequency response is as even as possible throughout the crossover region with the speakers? Will that get it done?


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post #98 of 112 Old 11-03-2013, 11:16 PM
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"Question about time alignment. Am I accomplishing that if I use the minidsp to adjust delay times on my subs while watching omnimic sweeps until the frequency response is as even as possible throughout the crossover region with the speakers? Will that get it done?"

it probably won't. not only is that point difficult to see, but it is also confused by reflections and modes. perhaps start with the subs and the mains co-located. then reverse polarity, play some tones, adjust delay for the deepest null at the crossover point. then reverse polarity. subs and mains should be time aligned. delay is most likely needed on the mains to accomplish this. then based on the physical placement of the subs relative to the mains, adjust the delay to compensate approx. 1ms per foot. that method may not give the smoothest in room response, but they will be time aligned, at least in some sense.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #99 of 112 Old 11-04-2013, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Question about time alignment. Am I accomplishing that if I use the minidsp to adjust delay times on my subs while watching omnimic sweeps until the frequency response is as even as possible throughout the crossover region with the speakers? Will that get it done?"

it probably won't. not only is that point difficult to see, but it is also confused by reflections and modes. perhaps start with the subs and the mains co-located. then reverse polarity, play some tones, adjust delay for the deepest null at the crossover point. then reverse polarity. subs and mains should be time aligned. delay is most likely needed on the mains to accomplish this. then based on the physical placement of the subs relative to the mains, adjust the delay to compensate approx. 1ms per foot. that method may not give the smoothest in room response, but they will be time aligned, at least in some sense.

All true, but still I'd manipulate the relative delay further until I achieve the summation that yields the smoothest FR across the listening area. Perfect time/phase aligned coherency is the goal, but ultimately of paramount concern is the smoothing of the FR. Also, in a multi-sub approach, manipulating the low pass adjustment of the group, or individually, is another tool for response smoothing, if you possess that capability.

Carp, I'm not sure, but iirc, you have all your subs essentially collocated up front, right? The individual sub time or freq tuning may be of less consequence in that instance, but worthy of mention nonetheless. As many control points as possible, adds a higher degree of granularity to the adjustment ... another arrow in the quiver. cool.gif

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------------------------------------
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(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
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post #100 of 112 Old 11-04-2013, 06:37 AM
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When I had my sealed system I had to adjust the delay of the subs to 7.6 feet and the speakers were 14 feet. This cleared up an huge null at the crossover region and did not effect the rest of the response. Many people just watch the spl meter while adjusting phase until it is at a higher level but this could be a peak(I use to do this too).
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post #101 of 112 Old 11-04-2013, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Question about time alignment. Am I accomplishing that if I use the minidsp to adjust delay times on my subs while watching omnimic sweeps until the frequency response is as even as possible throughout the crossover region with the speakers? Will that get it done?"

it probably won't. not only is that point difficult to see, but it is also confused by reflections and modes. perhaps start with the subs and the mains co-located. then reverse polarity, play some tones, adjust delay for the deepest null at the crossover point. then reverse polarity. subs and mains should be time aligned. delay is most likely needed on the mains to accomplish this. then based on the physical placement of the subs relative to the mains, adjust the delay to compensate approx. 1ms per foot. that method may not give the smoothest in room response, but they will be time aligned, at least in some sense.



Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

All true, but still I'd manipulate the relative delay further until I achieve the summation that yields the smoothest FR across the listening area. Perfect time/phase aligned coherency is the goal, but ultimately of paramount concern is the smoothing of the FR. Also, in a multi-sub approach, manipulating the low pass adjustment of the group, or individually, is another tool for response smoothing, if you possess that capability.

Carp, I'm not sure, but iirc, you have all your subs essentially collocated up front, right? The individual sub time or freq tuning may be of less consequence in that instance, but worthy of mention nonetheless. As many control points as possible, adds a higher degree of granularity to the adjustment ... another arrow in the quiver. cool.gif


Thanks guys, saving these posts for the next time I get the omnimic out.


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post #102 of 112 Old 11-04-2013, 06:44 PM
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rgQ-tu_mAwM&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DrgQ-tu_mAwM

BC415 is no joke. I heard the beast at Infocomm 2013. Made me miss my TH50 and DTS10s.

You will need the dts10s for 25 down.

Denon 4311ci with Mini DSP and antimodeL/R -DIYSOUND tempest towers (40" tall towers)C - DIYSOUND alchemy 8LS/RS - community D6MACHTSUB SYSTEM2-Stereo Integrity HST-18 D1 subs (happy dance) in dual 12 cuft ported tuned 16hzSub amp- Speakerpower SP2-12000
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post #103 of 112 Old 12-10-2013, 10:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking at the data bass chart it looks like 3 dts-10 with the lmsr upgrade perform as 2 of RICCI Gjallarhorns. So im thinking of adding two of ricci other subs the orthorns. Im thinking that will give me the punch Im looking for in the mid section.
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post #104 of 112 Old 12-11-2013, 03:47 PM
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we already pointed out that the reason your punch is lacking is likely due to your choice of danley tops. try boosting the eq in the 100 to 200 range on your mains before you drop 2k in drivers.
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post #105 of 112 Old 12-11-2013, 05:38 PM
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Graph what you have first.


"Knowledge is power, and when facing an enemy, there are things that you Know that you Know;
and there are things that you Know that you Don't know;
and there are things that you Don't know that you Don't know."
-Secretary of National Defense and Foreign Intelligence

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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post #106 of 112 Old 12-12-2013, 06:22 AM
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Ohhh, that's who said that - I had heard the quote in a chopped down version but didn't know who said it! biggrin.gif
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post #107 of 112 Old 12-12-2013, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
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Graph what you have first.

Still no graphs? lol.


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post #108 of 112 Old 12-12-2013, 11:02 AM
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What about the things you don't know that you know? biggrin.gif
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post #109 of 112 Old 12-12-2013, 11:36 AM
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Seems like some MBM's would be a good here to fill in that 50-200hz area.


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post #110 of 112 Old 01-28-2014, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I am going to add 2 Othorns with the 18 inch driver and get them calibrated in with my 3 lmsr dts-10's.
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post #111 of 112 Old 01-28-2014, 11:00 PM
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This thread needs graphs - not sub recommendations - IMO. I'm totally in the camp with the guys who have said this system already in place should have no shortage of output or midbass punch with proper EQ/setup.

kutlow,

Omnimics cost $300 and are so incredibly easy to setup and use that I'll wager you don't need help to get started! Plug the mic into the USB port on your Windows laptop. Play track 2 on the included CD. Place the mic in listening position. Capture the frequency response and post it here for us to review. You can move the mic around the seating area a bit and see how much it changes. Only measure 1 DTS-10 at a time, after measuring all three - then start adding them 1 at a time. When you measure all three you may find that something is out of phase and throwing the whole operation off.

Don't buy new drivers yet.

Buy an omnimic. It's the CLEAR next step. If there's one piece of gear I'd hold onto the strongest in my entire setup - it's the omnimic.

You say money is no object. Well this will be the best $300 you ever spent on your system.
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-omnimic-v2-precision-measurement-system--390-792

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #112 of 112 Old 01-29-2014, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Im going to buy an Omni mic but I still want two othorn's with the 18 inch driver. I looked on parts express and they have the basket for the pro 5100 on clearance but I don't see the motor??? Is this line being phased out or why is the basket on clearance?
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