If money is no object what would be the best DIY sub for home thester now? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 112 Old 10-20-2013, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I have 3 dts -10 that have the LMSR upgrade. I feel if like to have more punch for music. I would keep these dts-10 and add the new subs in the mix. I am going to visit Danley when during the Thanksgiving School Break to demo the new BC-415. Room is 15 x 21 with 9ft ceilings and Id like to get around 140 db.
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post #2 of 112 Old 10-20-2013, 09:30 PM
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money no object? upgrade to a 100 amp service in your listening room, pile on loads of expensive amps. buy a truck load of lms ultras and go to town?

but where do you live that you can hit 140 db at the listeninng position without the blue lights getting turned on?
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post #3 of 112 Old 10-20-2013, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I live in a very upscale subdivision. I get on it till 9pm Mon - Fri AND WHEN I FEEL LIKE IT ON WEEKENDS. If they can have pool parties, fireworks, loud motorcycles I can have my loud sound. It is my understanding that as long as you don't do it past 10 pm on a weekday your fine. A cop can only ask you to turn it down.
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post #4 of 112 Old 10-20-2013, 10:22 PM
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post #5 of 112 Old 10-20-2013, 10:54 PM - Thread Starter
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you think 2 of these would do the trick? How much watts does this need?
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post #6 of 112 Old 10-20-2013, 11:51 PM
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I wouldn’t mind building a couple of these. http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/sealed-subwoofer-build-projects/9281-4-18-5400s-8-passives-wow.html

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post #7 of 112 Old 10-21-2013, 02:28 AM
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If money is NO object, then how much room can you spare for subs. smile.gif I mean 8 dual opposed 5400's would definitely give you more hurt than you can handle.

I must be guilty because people say I am guilty because they chose to call me guilty because they refuse to see the truth. Much easier to be part of the mob..
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post #8 of 112 Old 10-21-2013, 03:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I have 3 dts -10 that have the LMSR upgrade. I feel if like to have more punch for music. I would keep these dts-10 and add the new subs in the mix. I am going to visit Danley when during the Thanksgiving School Break to demo the new BC-415. Room is 15 x 21 with 9ft ceilings and Id like to get around 140 db.


Have you paid someone to come EQ your setup?? I remember awhile back that was an issue.


To answer the money no option maybe I'd go with a wall of XXX 18's and a rack full of K10 powersoft's or LabGruppen FP14k's. I'd have an app on my phone showing the power meter outside counting wildly while drinking beer during demos. biggrin.gif
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"I should really see what dB levels I'm pushing. Long as it can't foam my beer during a movie we are ok "
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post #9 of 112 Old 10-21-2013, 03:28 AM
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Hey Kutlow,
If you add more subs into your mix measuring becomes even more important.
You should really learn to use REW smile.gif.

But to answer the question the LMS5400 in multiples would surely take care of your needs. smile.gif again.

That BC415 looks extremely expensive. And heavy at 500 pounds!

Moto
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post #10 of 112 Old 10-21-2013, 05:25 AM
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Do you have any hearing left? lol biggrin.gif

Sounds like a fun neighbourhood if you're all doing crazy noisy things! tongue.gif
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post #11 of 112 Old 10-21-2013, 08:59 AM
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The BC412/415 is your best bet for punch or something similar. For DIY try the inlow sound mid bass horn.

High xmax drivers in a sealed enclosure have all the punch of a wet piece of paper. In my experience if punch is what your looking for avoid the XXX/LMS and other such drivers.

Money no object I would try and ask Tom Danley for a custom mid bass cabinet.
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post #12 of 112 Old 10-21-2013, 09:49 AM
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"The BC412/415 is your best bet for punch or something similar."

those subs are designed to provide their own boundary reinforcement outdoors. Indoors, the wall behind the subs will be doing that. A much better approach would seem to be four individual units so placement of the four units can be optimized. for example, one in each corner might be best, always tough to know...

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post #13 of 112 Old 10-21-2013, 09:54 AM
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You already have the equivalent of 1.5 othorns with 3 DTS-10 LMSR's in the midbass area(50hz) and more everywhere else.
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post #14 of 112 Old 10-21-2013, 09:55 AM
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"I feel if like to have more punch for music."

I can't imagine that would would need more than this:

http://www.basspig.com/

scroll down.

6 premium high sensitivity 18's with good power behind them is $2-3k, so it doesn't need to cost a fortune. td18h+, 18lw2400, 2242h, pd1850, ev180b, lots of options...

but it is tough to argue with horns. :-)

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post #15 of 112 Old 10-21-2013, 12:08 PM
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how are your build chops?

~842 liter front loaded horn (something in the ballpark of 4' x 4' x 2' roughly), 1 x 18lw2400 driver. 1100 watts. 2pi space.

max spl (red is excursion limited, black is power limited zones):


hornresp response, 1 watt:


same graph, smushed:


efficiency:


efficiency in the passband is up around 30% on average. that is r-f-h!

1 db of ripple in spl in the passband and hornresp tends to overstate ripple and that is with compression ratio of only 2:1, so we aren't destroying the driver in the process.

just a rough back of the envelope to see what is possible...

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post #16 of 112 Old 10-21-2013, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I have 3 dts -10 that have the LMSR upgrade. I feel if like to have more punch for music. I would keep these dts-10 and add the new subs in the mix. I am going to visit Danley when during the Thanksgiving School Break to demo the new BC-415. Room is 15 x 21 with 9ft ceilings and Id like to get around 140 db.

Time to take some measurements and make sure you have the subs in the right spot to deliver the punch you are after. Once you confirm the location which will transfer the energy you're after to the listening position, then look at different options. I'd suggest taking a look at 2-4 of the JTR Orbit Shifter Pros (passive) or the Danley BC-412, or DBH-218. If you want to build, an Orthorn or a set or column of ~4-8 sealed AE TD-18 drivers or TC-Pro-5100. The multiple sealed box route offers the most flexibility in placement, but the Orbit Shifter Pro's very reasonable in size compared to other horn options and the LF/LFU version.

I'm going to re-iterate again how important placement and integration with the main speakers is for what you are after. I have scrapped huge scale builds and started over after testing locations with real subwoofers. A simple sealed subwoofer or two is generally the best way to investigate a room's response.
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post #17 of 112 Old 10-21-2013, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I have 3 dts -10 that have the LMSR upgrade. I feel if like to have more punch for music. I would keep these dts-10 and add the new subs in the mix. I am going to visit Danley when during the Thanksgiving School Break to demo the new BC-415. Room is 15 x 21 with 9ft ceilings and Id like to get around 140 db.

Money no object? Well then... 64 Ultra's and 64 rotary woofers outta do 'er. and 128 bridged LabGruppen FP14k's or their newer PLM's, and a 3200amp service.

Why 64? because it's a nice power of 2. and we are all about powers of two around here... biggrin.gif
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High xmax drivers in a sealed enclosure have all the punch of a wet piece of paper. In my experience if punch is what your looking for avoid the XXX/LMS and other such drivers.

I don't know about that, I've had people run screaming out of my room clinching their ears (but not bassheads so muich), and all my stuff is sealed. I almost broke my beer fridge from the SPL. and that's only with two SEOS's as mains for treble.
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post #18 of 112 Old 10-21-2013, 07:16 PM
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Except it doesnt fit in the room lol!
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post #19 of 112 Old 10-21-2013, 09:09 PM
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All joking aside.

Check out this video This is only with 1 LMS and half of my iTech 8000.

This is what I had BEFORE I added an additional 12db of bass and an additional 12db of treble.
12db is a quadrupling of acoustical-energy output FYI. Most rooms would fly apart at the seams. eek.gif

and NotNyt has another 6db more output than me, as of today. eek.gif

Are you still sure you would need more? wink.gif


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Except it doesnt fit in the room lol!
Ah, but if money is no object, so just build a bigger room. Throw 5 stacks of 10g's at the electricians face and tell him to "get to work!!!", and then do the same to ALL the contractors. hehe tongue.gif
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post #20 of 112 Old 10-21-2013, 09:40 PM
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Here is what 12db more bass than that, sounds like.

This is more than 10 18's and 33kW.

This is quad LMS (plus some).


and then I added another 12db more treble afterwards (as I mentioned already).


Now double all this; and then you'd have something more like NotNyt's system.

eek.gif
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post #21 of 112 Old 10-21-2013, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Time to take some measurements and make sure you have the subs in the right spot to deliver the punch you are after. Once you confirm the location which will transfer the energy you're after to the listening position, then look at different options. I'd suggest taking a look at 2-4 of the JTR Orbit Shifter Pros (passive) or the Danley BC-412, or DBH-218. If you want to build, an Orthorn or a set or column of ~4-8 sealed AE TD-18 drivers or TC-Pro-5100. The multiple sealed box route offers the most flexibility in placement, but the Orbit Shifter Pro's very reasonable in size compared to other horn options and the LF/LFU version.

I'm going to re-iterate again how important placement and integration with the main speakers is for what you are after. I have scrapped huge scale builds and started over after testing locations with real subwoofers. A simple sealed subwoofer or two is generally the best way to investigate a room's response.

+ 1

If space is not an issue and integration can be done correctly a multi way approach that many dance systems utilize could work very well with things such as the Void Hyperfold or Funktion One DS15 with subs underneath them. The old Martin 215MK2 and horns similar to them have a great reputation for being punchy. The void looks like it would do an outstanding job if positioned and integrated correctly. Rog Mogale also has plenty of experience with the old Martin style cabs so I am sure he has built something that can punch well.

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I don't know about that, I've had people run screaming out of my room clinching their ears (but not bassheads so muich), and all my stuff is sealed. I almost broke my beer fridge from the SPL. and that's only with two SEOS's as mains for treble.

Sealed subs will go loud (when there is enough of them) as you mention people run screaming out of the room clinching their ears which implies its loud, not punchy. I've been in SPL demo cars with a bunch of sealed 15s and it would numb your ears for a short period but it had no punch, just a lot of rumble of the lower thicker bass around 30-60Hz. SPL alone does not create the desired effect. Punch tends to be dominated by the time domain and the right response shape in my experience.
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post #22 of 112 Old 10-22-2013, 09:03 AM
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Food for thought on XXX RE's. Here's a 15 in action on 10k.




Oh and guess I'll jump in and ask how much for your LMSR drivers? How much for the dts-10's?smile.gif
Just buy a couple TH-221's from Danley discussed earlier and call it a day.

"I should really see what dB levels I'm pushing. Long as it can't foam my beer during a movie we are ok "
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post #23 of 112 Old 10-22-2013, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post

+ 1

If space is not an issue and integration can be done correctly a multi way approach that many dance systems utilize could work very well with things such as the Void Hyperfold or Funktion One DS15 with subs underneath them. The old Martin 215MK2 and horns similar to them have a great reputation for being punchy. The void looks like it would do an outstanding job if positioned and integrated correctly. Rog Mogale also has plenty of experience with the old Martin style cabs so I am sure he has built something that can punch well.
Sealed subs will go loud (when there is enough of them) as you mention people run screaming out of the room clinching their ears which implies its loud, not punchy. I've been in SPL demo cars with a bunch of sealed 15s and it would numb your ears for a short period but it had no punch, just a lot of rumble of the lower thicker bass around 30-60Hz. SPL alone does not create the desired effect. Punch tends to be dominated by the time domain and the right response shape in my experience.

... of course a car is going to be dominated by low rumble. its a cabin gain machine.

sealed roll of about 6 db per octave below tuning.... this means that above tuning (in the punch section) they are louder until LE causes them to roll off up top.

"Room is 15 x 21 with 9ft ceilings" this says it all really. a pair of any danley cabs will smash it (minus obligatory room nodes). I'd be partial to a pair of dbh218. but this isnt going to cut it for Hometheater, and good luck integrating without measurment tools.
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post #24 of 112 Old 10-22-2013, 11:10 AM
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Commercial:

Whatever Danley suggests once you describe your situation to them (if you can afford it)

or

JTR Orbit Shifters x 4

DIY:

4 Othorn's powered by 2 LG FP14000 clones (one per channel) or 4 Crest CC5500 (or equivalent) bridged per sub. Will give you 150db+ at 1m before room gain (assuming no cancellation) everywhere above 33hz and you'll retain the horn sound.
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post #25 of 112 Old 10-22-2013, 11:22 AM
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Commercial:

Whatever Danley suggests once you describe your situation to them (if you can afford it)

or

JTR Orbit Shifters x 4

DIY:

4 Othorn's powered by 2 LG FP14000 clones (one per channel) or 4 Crest CC5500 (or equivalent) bridged per sub. Will give you 150db+ at 1m before room gain (assuming no cancellation) everywhere above 33hz and you'll retain the horn sound.

money is not an object! he gets real lab gruppens, or Itechs, or powersofts!
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post #26 of 112 Old 10-22-2013, 06:28 PM
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money is not an object! he gets real lab gruppens, or Itechs, or powersofts!

Kutlow asked for answers that weren't bounded just by funds. He didn't ask for the most expensive setup possible regardless of performance. While it is common for various salespeople to enthusiastically misdirect or mislead someone into spending more than is warranted, everyone wants to know they are getting something of value for the money spent. Some lean more toward the intangibles while others more toward the quantifiable and everywhere in between. IMO the most important reality check is to insure that the expectations don't get way ahead of reality just because significant funds are involved. 8x 18" LMS-5400 drivers stacked in the wrong spot in a room could easily result in a serious plug-n-play disappointment.

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post #27 of 112 Old 10-22-2013, 06:48 PM
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i'll kick in another idea just for fun:

8 of these:



http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=24

in 2 of these:



http://www.avsforum.com/t/1494429/help-with-speaker-subwoofer-design/90#post_23856188

gets you 130 db down to 15hz or so and 140db+ in the midbass.

dump the dts 10's because they will just confuse the setup.

place the towers at 1/4 distances from the walls and the ceiling/floor modes as well as the left/right wall modes will be cancelled.

$4k for drivers + cost of cabs. 4 behringer inuke 6000 dsp amps for $500 a piece. all in, less than $7k.

spend a little bit of money to treat the back wall in order to absorb the 5/4 wave cancellation and use eq to reduce down the first front/rear wall room modes.

flat, deep, clean, impactful...scary...you name it...

cheers,
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post #28 of 112 Old 10-22-2013, 07:04 PM
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LTD..http://www.basspig.com/

scroll down.

I like your last, but only if the screen at the bottom comes with it. wink.gif

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post #29 of 112 Old 10-23-2013, 09:38 AM
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In my mind there are 2 categories as far as recomendeding a system goes.

"my budget is xxxx dollars, get me the best system i can get for this amount"

"Money is no object, get me the best system"



Now, OP may have meant to say the first one, which *MIGHT* mean he would be a contender for LabG clones. however, he's yet to give us a tangible dollar amount, so until that point, I'm going to recomend super overkill (and full warranty support) until they do. Thus, I say get real labs, powersofts, or itechs, with a very hefty power service install

OP has defined the room. I know you say upgrade the room bassthathz (and sticking hard and fast to category 2, your suggeston would be valid), but since its the only limitation that was described, we should stick to it.
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post #30 of 112 Old 10-23-2013, 09:44 AM
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Kutlow,

Don't take this the wrong way here, but it seems like your setup has never been right to begin with. Your room is under 3000cu ft and you have 3 DTS-10's. Don't you also have large Klipsch heritage mains as well or am I remembering that wrong? Anyway that system should be plenty for most anyone. The DTS-10's are rather more difficult than most systems to integrate and setup. They are not plug and play by any means with all of the wiring between the drivers and amplifier, the construction of the cabs and the response of the TH in the upper bass register after it is hooked up right. Add to that the room acoustics and integration with the mains and there are a lot of things that can go wrong. I suspect that there are some things going on in your system that are hampering its performance using the current equipment and the only real way to get to the bottom of things or to even make a recommendation as to what a "best" system upgrade would be, is to start measuring what is going on and take the guess work out. Otherwise you are simply throwing money at the issue blindly.

I seem to recall that you had reached out and asked if there was anyone who could come down to help you take some measurements and work on your setup. This is the right course of action. Did no one ever respond? Was there no one close who has REW going or Bill's system who could help out? Did you try to learn REW or Omnimic so you could do this yourself?
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