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post #61 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 10:33 AM
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unsmushed.

i wonder what causes those peaks and dips. maybe it is the same thing that gives it "time alignment"? my guess is the reflection 1/4 wave back off the throat comes back and destructively interferes with the front wave (coming through the holes).


Listen. It's All Good.
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post #62 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

Looking at it's FR, I'm not sure I'd want to listen to that in a home environment. http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/SM-60F-spec-sheet1.pdf

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Originally Posted by mikela View Post

I am not sure if you are referring to my post. Like Beast, I own a set of SM60Fs and find that the quality of sound from them surpasses that of my other speakers. I suppose one of these days, I will pull out my DEQX and try smoothing out the response to see if additional benefits will be gained. Being that it is a point source should mitigate some of the concerns of DSP i.e., optimized for one location.

Mike

Here is what I managed to accomplish, "un smushed" biggrin.gif :



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post #63 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 10:54 AM
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"Being that it is a point source should mitigate some of the concerns of DSP i.e., optimized for one location."

that is a great point. to the extent that those peaks and dips are a function of the loudspeaker itself, correcting them shouldn't introduce many of the problems associated with trying to 'eq the room' from the mids up.

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post #64 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 10:56 AM
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You can see the peaks and dips in your measurement beast. I imagine the point source sound and high output trumps smooth response for you. I do wonder if you would find it sounds better with a smoother response. It may smooth out a little off axis too.
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post #65 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsvr79 View Post

I wonder if a licensing deal could be worked?

Licensing/home versions have been discussed many times, and the answer always ends up being: Tom and his business partner will do what works best for them. It's Tom's technology and will be for quite some time....

Let's not turn this thread into a beg/plead/request for a home version/flat-pack thread. Tom has always been very generous with his time and knowledge for DIY'ers. I've known him online for almost 20 years, and he has always been consistently forthcoming and truthful at all times.

They'll do a home version when they want to. They'll license a home kit if/when they want to. End of story.
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post #66 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rsvr79 View Post

Scott, how did you determine what size holes were required for the speaker taps?

A mix of experiments and modeling in horn response. If you don't have frequency response measurement capability than these will be difficult speakers to design.

Scott.
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post #67 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 11:08 AM
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Isn't that frequency-response plot for the SH-50 a little exaggerated? Since the scale starts at 70dB and ends at 120dB, it looks worse than it is. Is a variation between 95dB and 105 dB considered below average?
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post #68 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Wow! That looks nice! Did you have a blueprint or existing design to copy? I am just curious as to how you figured out the proper deminsions and such??

No, this is my design based on the information that has been posted on many different forums and Tom's patents themselves.

SCott
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post #69 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

You can see the peaks and dips in your measurement beast. I imagine the point source sound and high output trumps smooth response for you. I do wonder if you would find it sounds better with a smoother response. It may smooth out a little off axis too.

Tuxedocivic:

Have you heard one? You should hunt some down....give them a listen. They really are that special.

The average in-room response of a conventional speaker has bumps and dips far exceeding anything posted in the FR response of the Synergy horns, including my own. I've measured some high end speakers that are generally well regarded with far worse frequency response performance, and others with phenomenal frequency response that just sound...bleh.

Scott
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post #70 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MarkHotchkiss View Post

Isn't that frequency-response plot for the SH-50 a little exaggerated? Since the scale starts at 70dB and ends at 120dB, it looks worse than it is. Is a variation between 95dB and 105 dB considered below average?

It's not even representative of modern production, design. Tom has stated that it's from one of the original models under less than ideal conditions.
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post #71 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

You can see the peaks and dips in your measurement beast. I imagine the point source sound and high output trumps smooth response for you. I do wonder if you would find it sounds better with a smoother response. It may smooth out a little off axis too.

Smoother? Are you serious? don't know how you can get much smoother in room at your MLP than that.

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post #72 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 11:32 AM
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Hey Scott. No I have not, but I have heard very point source speakers like coaxials and full rangers and I fully know the grand benefits of point source sound. I've touted it quite a bit on these forums. So I don't doubt very much that you and beast have phenominal speakers.

What you have stated in this thread is that you place a higher importance on the FR at the LP where as I place highest importance on the anechoic FR with uniform polar response. Even in my own room where I can control the LP frequency response. I typically prefer a wider polar response than something to narrow also. So from my position, I agree with Face that there is room for improvement here, despite the incredible benefits a synergy horn provides. I think those benefits do out weigh the FR abnormalities.

There's way to many variables to accept your statement that some good speakers have bad FR and some speakers with good FR sound "bleh". There's a myriad of reasons why this may have been.



JUST to be clear. I think the synergies are probably mind blowing. I just think in the home setting I'd want to improve the FR.
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post #73 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


Here is what I managed to accomplish, "un smushed" biggrin.gif :


Looks better, but how much smoothing is there?

Mike
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post #74 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 01:23 PM
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1/12th

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post #75 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Smoother? Are you serious? don't know how you can get much smoother in room at your MLP than that.

Oops, missed your comment beast. The peaks and dips line up really well with the spec sheet, so even though you may have measured at the LP, the anechoic response is reaching your seat. Most HiFi stuff targets +/-2db anechoic. The stuff above 500hz isn't affected by the room as much as people think, but it does soften the anechoic response. Which is what your plot looks like. It's only a few db up and down. Which is really quite good. But what a LP frequency response doesn't tell us, is what is reflected sound and what is direct sound. The brain will do that.

If you cut your graph off at 100hz and made the left side a little taller like LTD did, it would be a little easier to read. Omnimic graphs are difficult to read sometimes.



Really, I'm not knocking this speaker. It's great. I just agree with Face that there's some response irregularities that could be smoothed out for really high end performance. I think in HT, a smooth response often isn't a critical item for some people. For me, it's very important. I'm not sure what these costs, but iirc they're fairly expensive. $2000 each?? For that money, I'd be very very critical. They certainly have a lot going for them though smile.gif
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post #76 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 01:49 PM
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Does anyone know what type of mid/hi driver the SM60F uses? The DSL site just says 5".
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They'll do a home version when they want to. They'll license a home kit if/when they want to. End of story.

Fair enough, but the chance of it happening is greatly reduced if ideas on how to do it with a minimum of hassle factor for DSL aren't ever proposed or discussed.

That said, now they have, so let's a hope a seed has been planted and will sprout.

Noah
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post #77 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I wouldn't try to get any Synergy flat packs or kits made up without permission from Tom. Plus there would be royalties added in to pay him. Bwaslo and I had discussed talking with Tom about getting some kits made up, or small completed versions. I send Tom an email about 6 months ago to see if it would be feasible, but didn't hear back. Maybe he was too busy, or he forgot to reply, I'm not sure.

My guess is that they don't offer the 'residential' kits because it would require a lot of extra resources to deal with all the questions that would come with it. But I could handle all of that and would clearly tell people that they had to direct questions to me versus Danley. Doing this would certainly sway me into working on audio kits and speakers full time. biggrin.gif

Ivan, I'd really like to get either a DIY kit or smaller residential model made up for the Synergy and maybe even a smaller tapped horn (kit or completed).

I realize it wouldn't be cheap but I could get the funding together to get the project completed and make it 'residential friendly'. I'd also do all the grunt work to get the kits manufactured, do all the packaging/shipping, and handle the emails. We would obviously pay royalties for the design.

Would be amazing if you could make it happen.
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post #78 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Does anyone know what type of mid/hi driver the SM60F uses? The DSL site just says 5".
Fair enough, but the chance of it happening is greatly reduced if ideas on how to do it with a minimum of hassle factor for DSL aren't ever proposed or discussed.

That said, now they have, so let's a hope a seed has been planted and will sprout.

BMS 5CN140
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post #79 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 03:38 PM
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Ah, a 5" coax; thanks

Noah
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post #80 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Ah, a 5" coax; thanks

Figure 6 & 7 describe how it is used http://www.goodsoundclub.com/PDF/Synergy_Patent.pdf
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post #81 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 05:19 PM
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Thanks for the link, Mike.

From Fig. 7 it looks like the cone section isn't used, or is the back wave used, or is that a skinny open section that the front of it feeds into?

Noah
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post #82 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 05:36 PM
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I'd guess it is the skinny opening used. If you look at a SM60M you will see four openings for the cone.

JoshK on most other audio forums
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post #83 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Thanks for the link, Mike.

From Fig. 7 it looks like the cone section isn't used, or is the back wave used, or is that a skinny open section that the front of it feeds into?

I'm really impressed by the SM. More than the multi-driver Synergies, to be honest. Basically, horn fits down on top of the tweeter's waveguide "snout," sealing it, and the mid is loaded into a bandpass cabinet with exits at the appropriate distance from the center.

Sheer genius.

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post #84 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Thanks for the link, Mike.

From Fig. 7 it looks like the cone section isn't used, or is the back wave used, or is that a skinny open section that the front of it feeds into?

The Tweeter (compression driver) throat feeds directly into the apex of the horn and is sealed off from the midrange cone. The 5" midrange cone drives four small ports further down the throat of the horn.

This is a great thread for understanding the design http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/88237-suitable-midrange-cone-bandpass-mid-unity-horn-137.html
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post #85 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 08:09 PM
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Sheer genius.

Without a doubt cool.gif
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post #86 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Hey Scott. No I have not, but I have heard very point source speakers like coaxials and full rangers and I fully know the grand benefits of point source sound. I've touted it quite a bit on these forums. So I don't doubt very much that you and beast have phenominal speakers.

What you have stated in this thread is that you place a higher importance on the FR at the LP where as I place highest importance on the anechoic FR with uniform polar response. Even in my own room where I can control the LP frequency response. I typically prefer a wider polar response than something to narrow also. So from my position, I agree with Face that there is room for improvement here, despite the incredible benefits a synergy horn provides. I think those benefits do out weigh the FR abnormalities.

There's way to many variables to accept your statement that some good speakers have bad FR and some speakers with good FR sound "bleh". There's a myriad of reasons why this may have been.



JUST to be clear. I think the synergies are probably mind blowing. I just think in the home setting I'd want to improve the FR.

I wasn't taking your comments as you thought the speakers didn't sound good. (It wouldn't bother me if someone thought that...It's like wine if.. I like it...I like it. If you don't like the exact same wine...you don't like it.)

In my mind I still have a question as why you place such high importance to frequency response in an anechoic chamber and not at the listening position? After all, the listening position is where...you listen. I've heard Manger, Lowther, Voxativ, MarkAudio, and many other full rangers. (Also Quad, Magnepan, and any other exotic you can name except for plasma based drivers.) At the end of they day they are dependent on the room to not screw them up and typically have limitations with uniformity of off-axis response, total output, or...limitations at the low end. The Synergy concept removes those limitations...and then adds the potential for better time domain performance, lower distortion, directivity control all while maintaining the point source benefits.

To describe the sound the only words I have are this: It's the detail of electrostatics, tonal control of a full range, with the musicality of a min-monitor, precision imaging of headphones without the in your head soundtrack problem. Add in all the dynamics of a horn loaded system without the honk or listening distance requirements...and that's about what you get. You literally can't stop listening.
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post #87 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Not much time to post tonight...but here's some photos about how I started to wrap the enclosures around the horns.






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post #88 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeakerScott View Post

In my mind I still have a question as why you place such high importance to frequency response in an anechoic chamber and not at the listening position?

There are those who argue that what we hear (different from what a mic "hears") is much more weighted to the direct response over the room response.

That said, looks like you can have it all, as the irregularities aren't so narrow/jagged that they can't be corrected with EQ.

Noah
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post #89 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 09:44 PM
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Exactly. The research and my own findings have taught me that the direct sound is very important. In a proper setup of course.
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post #90 of 129 Old 11-06-2013, 09:51 PM
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Not to put words in Mr. Danley's mouth, but I truly think I remember him making a comment in a thread around here somewhere to the effect that, he could see room to finesse the crossovers in his designs a bit more for smoother FR if he was designing for home systems. Of course he may just recognize the value of pretty graphs in that market segment. But tweaking for that final 1% makes no sense for his current market.

As in all things audio there is room for folks to have differing priorities. All the more in light of the seemingly game changing nature of certain other attributes the Synergies bring to the table.
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