Synergy Horns-Dayton and PRV..... - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 129 Old 11-07-2013, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by SpeakerScott View Post

Licensing/home versions have been discussed many times, and the answer always ends up being: Tom and his business partner will do what works best for them. It's Tom's technology and will be for quite some time....

I wasn't trying to imply otherwise. I didn't know it had already been discussed several times previously and shot down.
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A mix of experiments and modeling in horn response. If you don't have frequency response measurement capability than these will be difficult speakers to design.

Scott.

Thanks.
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post #92 of 129 Old 11-07-2013, 09:23 AM
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To describe the sound the only words I have are this: It's the detail of electrostatics, tonal control of a full range, with the musicality of a min-monitor, precision imaging of headphones without the in your head soundtrack problem. Add in all the dynamics of a horn loaded system without the honk or listening distance requirements...and that's about what you get. You literally can't stop listening.

This times like 11ty billion. Can I just use that quote anytime someone asks me why I like my synergies?

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post #93 of 129 Old 11-07-2013, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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This times like 11ty billion. Can I just use that quote anytime someone asks me why I like my synergies?

Absolutely...just reference the source. ;-)

I may reference you with the "times like 11ty billion." if you don't mind.
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post #94 of 129 Old 11-07-2013, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rsvr79 View Post

I wasn't trying to imply otherwise. I didn't know it had already been discussed several times previously and shot down.
Thanks.

No worries, I just have seen too many Synergy threads turn into multiple pages of "please!!!!" . Tom has a business to run, and from external appearances it's pretty successful. I think he has like 1/5 or 1/4 of the NFL stadiums at this point.

Scot
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post #95 of 129 Old 11-08-2013, 04:35 PM
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I came across this reply from Tom Danley regarding crossover design and I thought you might find this interesting:

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Hi Miab
I can explain a bit more about this.
When you model any passive crossover and you sum the high and low outputs to get the result, the ideal is flat response.

If one looks farther into it, one also finds that the phase of that sum appears NOT to be one new output as if one source but to be that of an all – pass filter. An all pass filter has flat magnitude response BUT is not minimum phase, that is, there is a change in phase which is independent of a change in amplitude as a minimum phase relation has.
If one examines that phase as Group delay plot (the difference in time of one groups of frequencies vs another), one finds the low pass part of the filter is always behind the high pass in time.
All conventional crossovers above first order, cause the hf and lf portions to be separated in time, that is normal operation and is one reason why most multi-way loudspeakers do not preserve the harmonic time relationships or are able to reproduce a wide band waveform like a square wave in more than one location or frequency.

What I was explaining was that for all of our Synergy horns at work, I have been able to devise filters which take advantage of the fact that the drivers are not conventionally aligned, the tweeter is rear most and woofers most forward. That physical location allows a passive filter that sums without the all pass response and so looks like one single driver in time instead.
An indicator of preserving time is that one like the SH-50, can reproduce a square wave over a decade wide bandwidth spanning both crossovers and not just in one special spot. It’s not quite as good in time as the Manger driver I measured but it goes about >+40dB louder.

Anyway, I was suggesting to Freddyi that he look for those drivers because the hf driver is already behind the woofer AND there is only a small acoustic discontinuity where the hf horn couples to the cone as the horn. About 8 years ago I had designed a number of speakers for work that used it because one can make it sum into one source in time.
As the crossover in a real speaker has to not just sum properly but to sum it’s magnitude and phase plus the individual responses and phases of each driver and that fixed delay cause by location, it is not a text book job or filter.

Fwiw, if you’re interested in this stuff, you can look up “the man” who discovered the time aspect and developed a way to measure and describe it. He unfortunately passed away more than 25 years ago but his writings, his measurement system and my one single meeting with him have changed my audio life. Look up Richard Heyser and his work on loudspeaker arrival time and so on.

While we don’t sell any hifi speakers (I have been unable to interest my partner in that market in light of the growth of the sports stadium area) but when you can make a single source in time and space with constant directivty on a large scale, it sounds very different and much better than concert arrays and you can even hear that on an hand held camera video.

Here is a camcorder video of the first public demo of a J-3, used in large installations like the Michigan state football stadium (which uses 3 per side).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MOG_sPejGA

Its hard to tell how loud it was until you scale the volume when the operator walks up and talks to the guy holding the camera. As this was for a bunch of stadium sound people, at one point you can see them standing out in the field at about 400 feet.

There is a nice video of the first installation those were used in, taken from 700 feet. If you have ever head a large stadium sound system, even with headphones you can hear the difference. There are three of them per side and only at one end of the stadium. Normally the wind and sound quality both would be a huge problem with the array system, here the wind is hardly detectable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMkcyiijI7Y

Some places these new Synergy horns have already been installed (all replacing well known concert sound style pa’s and gear);

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/portfolio/

Anyway, my partner might be willing to let me supply a synergy style crossover for the B&C driver.
I will ask him today if he’s around.
Best,
Tom Danley
Danley Sound Labs
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post #96 of 129 Old 11-08-2013, 05:20 PM
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Anyway, my partner might be willing to let me supply a synergy style crossover for the B&C driver.

I will ask him today if he’s around.

Wow, how did I miss that?

Which B&C driver, and did anything come of it?

I guess not, or I'd probably know about it already.

Noah
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post #97 of 129 Old 11-08-2013, 06:43 PM
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Wow, how did I miss that?

Which B&C driver, and did anything come of it?

I guess not, or I'd probably know about it already.

I am very curious about this. Unfortunately, as much as I would love to have a setup of Synergy horns for my ht, even with the crossover design sitting right in front of me, there is no possible way I could ever build the enclosure as my woodworking skills just are not advanced enough to do something like this. Oh well, it's nice to dream....
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post #98 of 129 Old 11-09-2013, 09:43 AM
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Wow, how did I miss that?

Which B&C driver, and did anything come of it?

I guess not, or I'd probably know about it already.

B&C 8CX21
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post #99 of 129 Old 11-09-2013, 04:39 PM
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B&C 8CX21

Ok, thanks; maybe it's good that nothing came of it, or I'd have over $500 worth of XO's that I don't need.

Noah
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post #100 of 129 Old 11-10-2013, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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More pictures of wrapping an enclosure around the horn.


When doing this, the idea is to keep everything as square as possible. I put some serious time in here... The best part is, this way you can use a bunch of off-cuts and odd sizes...since very few pieces are very large it's efficient sheet good usage.



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post #101 of 129 Old 11-11-2013, 04:59 AM
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SpeakerScott- that is some very impressive wood working! How long did it take you to get these cabinets completed?
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post #102 of 129 Old 11-14-2013, 02:17 PM
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Thanks for the pics- very nice work. Regarding your crossover: do you have to use an all-pass filter, ie ladder delay network to perfect the time alignment? I saw this, which is pretty cool:

http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZD5.html

John
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post #103 of 129 Old 11-15-2013, 07:55 PM
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Can the B&C DE250 be substituted for the PRV D290, since I already have them? When will the crossover scematics be available?
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post #104 of 129 Old 11-19-2013, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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SpeakerScott- that is some very impressive wood working! How long did it take you to get these cabinets completed?

About 2 months working nights and weekends.....the project kept me sane after a court decision took our foster girls away from us.
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post #105 of 129 Old 11-19-2013, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the pics- very nice work. Regarding your crossover: do you have to use an all-pass filter, ie ladder delay network to perfect the time alignment? I saw this, which is pretty cool:

http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZD5.html

John

No, but I am very familiar with all-pass ladders...Sound Easy isn't very easy...so I will be trying new crossover revisions in the future.
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post #106 of 129 Old 11-19-2013, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Can the B&C DE250 be substituted for the PRV D290, since I already have them? When will the crossover scematics be available?

Doubtful....I wouldn't substitute any drivers without measurements/adjustments.
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post #107 of 129 Old 11-19-2013, 08:18 PM
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Doubtful....I wouldn't substitute any drivers without measurements/adjustments.

Thanks for the reply, we'll keep the PRV then, thats what I wanted to know. Every time I see someone say well what about this substitution or this one it's always the same, stick to the plan. Just had to ask because I already have the drivers, trying to save some money. I suggest anyone building this speaker to check for surround clearance by pressing the 8" woofer to the clearanced speaker panel and playing high Xmax music to check for proper clearance. I had clearance issues at first, but kept grinding away until I didn't have any more nasty sounds. The last thing you wan't in a speaker of this caliber is a strange buzzing sound coming from insufficient driver clearance.
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post #108 of 129 Old 11-19-2013, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Doubtful....I wouldn't substitute any drivers without measurements/adjustments.

Thanks for the reply, we'll keep the PRV then, thats what I wanted to know. Every time I see someone say well what about this substitution or this one it's always the same, stick to the plan. Just had to ask because I already have the drivers, trying to save some money. I suggest anyone building this speaker to check for surround clearance by pressing the 8" woofer to the clearanced speaker panel and playing high Xmax music to check for proper clearance. I had clearance issues at first, but kept grinding away until I didn't have any more nasty sounds. The last thing you wan't in a speaker of this caliber is a strange buzzing sound coming from insufficient driver clearance.

Yeah, I had a bunch of different tries..finally found a chamfering/surround relief that worked. I also played both the woofers and mid-range drivers at high excursion and listened for any chuffing noises indicating air speed too high through the tap ports. Once the chuffing stopped near xmax...that's where I stopped enlarging the holes for the woofers. The mids were limited by how high I wanted them to play...larger holes higher frequency response. More aggressive frustrum....better high frequency response.
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post #109 of 129 Old 11-20-2013, 04:42 AM
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So with regards to these horn speakers that the OP has built, how far back does the listening position need to be for the optimal sound quality? Would it be ok to be less than 10' away? Do these need more than 10' so that all the drivers sum properly?
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post #110 of 129 Old 11-20-2013, 04:59 AM - Thread Starter
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So with regards to these horn speakers that the OP has built, how far back does the listening position need to be for the optimal sound quality? Would it be ok to be less than 10' away? Do these need more than 10' so that all the drivers sum properly?

That's one of the advantages of the Synergy horn. The drivers have summed properly before the sound leaves the horn mouth. I listen at about 10' but the sound literally does not change tonal character until your head is in the horn, past the woofer ports.

Scott
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post #111 of 129 Old 11-20-2013, 03:11 PM
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I look forward to the crossover details, I kind of wonder if these would be better suited to an active crossover.
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post #112 of 129 Old 11-20-2013, 04:56 PM
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Hi Scott,

Thanks for keeping us informed on your progress. I am also interested in Marty's and Stumbo's questions.
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That's one of the advantages of the Synergy horn. The drivers have summed properly before the sound leaves the horn mouth. I listen at about 10' but the sound literally does not change tonal character until your head is in the horn, past the woofer ports.
So, is that to say that the near-field ends at the woofer ports, and everything in front of that is the far field?


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I look forward to the crossover details, I kind of wonder if these would be better suited to an active crossover.
Specifically, how much phase correction is required in the crossover? I suspect that frequency-response equalization might be best done by an active crossover, but you can't really correct electrical phase from the far-side of the amps, can you?

I understand that the relative phase of the speakers are handled just by the physical design (do I have that right?) - I'm more concerned about the electrical phase, which is typically compensated in a passive crossover.
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post #113 of 129 Old 11-26-2013, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry for the delay...life and work got in the way.

One thing that might be asked is my finishing schedule. I'm a fan of the following:

1. Seal multiple spray coats of de-waxed shellac. I use a $15 Harbor Freight gun for most spraying jobs. I've owned fancier guns...and they do a better job. Not 20X better. I use automotive glazing compound to cover any scratches or rubs. (That's the pink stuff.)

2. Sand, down to ~300 grit...do not skip grits...do not rush...go slow. It will go faster in the long run.

3. Seal one more very light coat.

4. Build coats of finish with the recommended adhere coat...this will also expose any spots you missed in 1 and 2 for glazing and sanding.

5. Start with glazing and go to 2 again...repeat until you're happy.

I love Target Coatings products....they always work very well. The horns are as follows:

De-Waxed Shellac.
Glazing
De-Waxed Shellac (alcohol based).
Target Shellac as a bond coat (water based)
Target White Lacquer (roughly 3 coats...more glazing, sealer of Target water based shellac and 10 more coats of lacquer)

Yes...there are 14 (ish) coats of lacquer on the horns, and with the water based stuff it only took a long weekend.

And yes I used the $15 Harbor Freight HVLP gun, and I didn't build a booth.


















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post #114 of 129 Old 11-27-2013, 05:21 AM
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Those look beautiful!
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post #115 of 129 Old 11-27-2013, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Those look beautiful!

Thank you...did a bunch of listening last night...the precision of imaging still startles me.
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post #116 of 129 Old 12-01-2013, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Next up is the midrange cup. I had to dremel out the inside lip of a 3" PVC endcap...but otherwise they work very well. They are hot glued to the horn. Be patient...it takes a while for the glue to cool enough to hold them on. Once completely cool...it's actually hard to get them off. They can be removed by slow careful cutting with a utility knife...for driver replacement.

Note that the wires come through the end of the end cap and all surfaces are sealed.

Also note that the compression driver is held in place by the compression action of a board with two strips of foam. Holds in in place easily...and well. Probably not suitable for something that's needed for touring...but for carrying up my stairs...just fine.

The outside finish is Duratex....love it.






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post #117 of 129 Old 12-01-2013, 08:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Last...for now is the crossover.

I have two version...A and B....A uses 9mH in series with the woofer and 40 Ohms in parallel with the mid. B uses 8 mH in series with the woofer and 13 Ohms in parallel with the mid. The difference is a bit more midbass and less midrange. I found the A version a bit too analytic ...but I left it as the center channel for the home theater. Made voices absolutely intelligible in HT usage...even if the rest of the track is busy and rubbish.

The comparison plot shows A vs. B....A has a bit more output in the midrange and less in the bass.

I think I've explained before that SoundEasy should be called Sound "Really kind of difficult, but with a enough work will get the job done, though you'll practice cursing a lot" I don't buy the measurements below about 200 Hz for the woofer...so I'm running a bit blind. I'll re-take and see what's actually happening and refine the crossovers as needed. These aren't the last crossovers....for sure. Plenty of optimization for measured time domain and frequency domain performance.

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post #118 of 129 Old 12-02-2013, 12:09 PM
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Really enjoying the pics here man! Excellent work biggrin.gif

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post #119 of 129 Old 12-02-2013, 12:10 PM
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Really enjoying the pics here man! Excellent work biggrin.gif

Definitely. Amazing work!

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post #120 of 129 Old 12-12-2013, 05:25 PM
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+1 For the home version or diy. These things could be killer esp. with an active crossover/dsp setup. I'm sure Mr. Danley has a design worked out. The excess headroom would allow for FR refinement and lower extension...(to quote Carl Spackler, from "CaddyShack"..."i think". Considering the numerous crossover parts used in these designs, active might even be less expensive?
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