Synergy Horns-Dayton and PRV..... - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #121 of 145 Old 12-12-2013, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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I bet they would be killer...but I doubt that a DSP + 3 channels of amplification would be cheaper than the design I posted above. Mine is a pretty minimalist design considering the number of parts in posted Danley designs......

Scott
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post #122 of 145 Old 01-10-2014, 07:18 AM
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SpeakerScott -

I was just re-reading this thread, and noticed the way you mounted the PRV compression driver. Clever. That has always been a problem in my Synergy designs, allowing for access to the traditional screws or studs on the CD. I might have to steal that one smile.gif

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post #123 of 145 Old 01-11-2014, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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SpeakerScott -

I was just re-reading this thread, and noticed the way you mounted the PRV compression driver. Clever. That has always been a problem in my Synergy designs, allowing for access to the traditional screws or studs on the CD. I might have to steal that one smile.gif

Bill

That's why they're called compression drivers right? (See what I did there? I find myself very funny. )

Steal away....I would point out that I think it will work well with metal backed drivers. Some of them (cheaper PRV, Dayton...etc)...have a polymer back that may not hold up it's shape under the pressure needed to hold it against the horn. A thicker wider layer of foam would help.

Scott
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post #124 of 145 Old 02-23-2014, 11:54 AM
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Any updates on the crossover Scott? I am in the process of collecting parts and going to start a pair of these, thanks for all the hard work and documentation. I am fascinated by this design and cant wait to try some. I kinda sorta want to build a high power prosound version for a DJ system I am going to build for my house too.
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post #125 of 145 Old 03-07-2014, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey!!! Sorry...don't mean to be silent. I still haven't updated the crossover on these....I do have a UMIK-1 and REW working on a laptop now so it'll be easier. (I don't have to move my big desktop outside) I've got a speaker commission I'm working on now (SEOS-12 design) so I'll be one of the few who have heard both Synergy and SEOS pretty soon.

I'll post an update on that in a separate thread.

Scott
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post #126 of 145 Old 03-07-2014, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by SpeakerScott View Post

Hey!!! Sorry...don't mean to be silent. I still haven't updated the crossover on these....I do have a UMIK-1 and REW working on a laptop now so it'll be easier. (I don't have to move my big desktop outside) I've got a speaker commission I'm working on now (SEOS-12 design) so I'll be one of the few who have heard both Synergy and SEOS pretty soon.

I'll post an update on that in a separate thread.

Scott

Hey! Just like me! I still have my SEOS in house even though the 50's won't be getting supplanted for any reason...
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post #127 of 145 Old 03-07-2014, 01:51 PM
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I've got a speaker commission I'm working on now (SEOS-12 design) so I'll be one of the few who have heard both Synergy and SEOS pretty soon.

Can you say more about the SEOS-12 design?

Noah
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post #128 of 145 Old 03-07-2014, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, Faital 12FH520 12" neo woofer with a PRV D290 in a 60L two way. Customer has a 30WPC tube amp and is looking for something with reasonable efficiency and bass response.
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post #129 of 145 Old 03-07-2014, 04:55 PM
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Interesting, thanks

Noah
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post #130 of 145 Old 01-18-2016, 10:42 AM
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Woofer Frustum

Let's have a go at resurrecting this thread. At long last circumstances are favorable for me to do this build. To begin, my wife and I are trying to come up with well formed frustums for the mids and woofers. It's not something that comes naturally for Enroute cnc software, but I think maybe the results are adequate. Overall diameter is 7-3/8" and starting depth is 1/4". The rim of the aperture is 1/8". Cutting was done with 1/2" ball end mill. I plan to touch up with hand sanding. Question: are there guidelines to defining the shape of these frustums?
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post #131 of 145 Old 01-18-2016, 12:33 PM
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The goal of the frustrum is to thin out the horn wall where the hole goes through while minimizing the amount of air trapped between the speaker cone and the horn wall. You've done a nice job of that but there is more to it and that. The Danley patent shows an example where there is no tapering and that can work well too. It all depends....on a lot of different things. You really need to do a simulation (e.g. HornResp) where you tune hole diameter, wall thickness, trapped air volume, hole location, .... to get the best response.
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post #132 of 145 Old 01-19-2016, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Let's have a go at resurrecting this thread. At long last circumstances are favorable for me to do this build. To begin, my wife and I are trying to come up with well formed frustums for the mids and woofers. It's not something that comes naturally for Enroute cnc software, but I think maybe the results are adequate. Overall diameter is 7-3/8" and starting depth is 1/4". The rim of the aperture is 1/8". Cutting was done with 1/2" ball end mill. I plan to touch up with hand sanding. Question: are there guidelines to defining the shape of these frustums?
So....I've never go to that much effort to cut frustums for the woofer. It looks like it would work, but I haven't had to do that...I cut smaller frustums for the woofer, and a ring to make sure the surround would clear in heavy excursions.

I've never had great luck modeling the frustum cutting in HornResp...others have had far better luck in AkBak, but I don't have an XP machine anymore.


I tested my frustums by practicing them on a flat board, with the hole I intended to use for the Synergy horn. I measured with a microphone about 3 " away. It's a relative deal...in practice you'll never get the horn to go significantly higher in frequency than the raw response this way. It's not ideal, but it works.

Thanks for resurrecting this thread....these Synergy horns are still my main speakers...and have lasted longer than any other speakers I've ever built or owned.

Since then I built another set...but it's smaller and doesn't have quite the performance. Still stunning...but there is magic to be gained from a large mouth area.

Scott
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post #133 of 145 Old 05-02-2016, 10:11 AM
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So....I've never go to that much effort to cut frustums for the woofer. It looks like it would work, but I haven't had to do that...I cut smaller frustums for the woofer, and a ring to make sure the surround would clear in heavy excursions.

I've never had great luck modeling the frustum cutting in HornResp...others have had far better luck in AkBak, but I don't have an XP machine anymore.


I tested my frustums by practicing them on a flat board, with the hole I intended to use for the Synergy horn. I measured with a microphone about 3 " away. It's a relative deal...in practice you'll never get the horn to go significantly higher in frequency than the raw response this way. It's not ideal, but it works.

Thanks for resurrecting this thread....these Synergy horns are still my main speakers...and have lasted longer than any other speakers I've ever built or owned.

Since then I built another set...but it's smaller and doesn't have quite the performance. Still stunning...but there is magic to be gained from a large mouth area.

Scott
Thank you for the hard work and participation in this project. Do you have the latest drawing and crossover that you could share? ....quietspeaker
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post #134 of 145 Old 05-02-2016, 10:20 AM
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but I don't have an XP machine anymore.
Microsoft have a free XP VM.
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post #135 of 145 Old 10-26-2016, 06:39 PM
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Great build (still reading all the info)! I am also planning on building a Synergy Horn, but I am going to try and go bigger. I am planning on doing a 2 way setup with 10-12" woofers, and EVDH1A drivers.

Why did you go with a 3 way instead of a 2 way (I know Danley did a 3 way, but I am thinking a 2 way would also work well)?

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post #136 of 145 Old 10-26-2016, 07:48 PM
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^^ You're going to have trouble with upper bandwidth on the lower drivers and may have difficulty in correct placement of the ports into the side of the flare. Just go 3 way. I'm not yet convinced there is a need for a domestic 3 way with all 3 feeding into the flare. My Unitys are 3 way with external 15s for LF and work exceptionally well.
Plus soon, I'll have 4 more.
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post #137 of 145 Old 10-26-2016, 08:20 PM
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^^ You're going to have trouble with upper bandwidth on the lower drivers and may have difficulty in correct placement of the ports into the side of the flare. Just go 3 way. I'm not yet convinced there is a need for a domestic 3 way with all 3 feeding into the flare. My Unitys are 3 way with external 15s for LF and work exceptionally well.
Plus soon, I'll have 4 more.
Thanks, my goal is to have a full range speaker that I can crossover to my DTS-10 subs at 60-80Hz. Currently i am using 1/4 Pie bass bins with JBL 2360A horns with EV DH1A drivers. My current setup sounds great but it is awkward to try, and aim all 3 of the bass bins the same as the JBL horns. If I can make a setup that is 3-4' wide, and 3' or less in depth I will be happy.

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post #138 of 145 Old 10-27-2016, 09:25 AM
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^^ You're going to have trouble with upper bandwidth on the lower drivers and may have difficulty in correct placement of the ports into the side of the flare. Just go 3 way. I'm not yet convinced there is a need for a domestic 3 way with all 3 feeding into the flare. My Unitys are 3 way with external 15s for LF and work exceptionally well.
Plus soon, I'll have 4 more.
Whoa whoa whoa.... A9 man, you gotta post a pic of that or else you are lying
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post #139 of 145 Old 10-27-2016, 12:15 PM
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Whoa whoa whoa.... A9 man, you gotta post a pic of that or else you are lying
If I can be bothered when I finish rebuilding them I will. In the mean time, there are a few pics here of when I got them from Nick (Lambda). The four for the surrounds have been ordered but not yet delivered.
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post #140 of 145 Old 10-27-2016, 01:04 PM
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Thanks, my goal is to have a full range speaker that I can crossover to my DTS-10 subs at 60-80Hz. Currently i am using 1/4 Pie bass bins with JBL 2360A horns with EV DH1A drivers. My current setup sounds great but it is awkward to try, and aim all 3 of the bass bins the same as the JBL horns. If I can make a setup that is 3-4' wide, and 3' or less in depth I will be happy.
I would be tempted to "glue" woofers onto the sides or top and bottom of that jbl2360a horn, as close to the apex as possible, and make a 2-way synergy with the EV DH1A CD. You may not be able to squeeze in 12" woofers there but 10" should fit from what I can see on the spec sheet.
On DIY audio, Weltersys did a synergy (SynTrip) with 10" woofers and a 1.4" CD. On the Klipsch site, someone synergized a K402 horn with 15" woofers, so it is definitely do able. And yes, you may need to do some work (fashion a "volume plug") to extend the high end of the woofer.
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post #141 of 145 Old 10-27-2016, 01:26 PM
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I would be tempted to "glue" woofers onto the sides or top and bottom of that jbl2360a horn, as close to the apex as possible, and make a 2-way synergy with the EV DH1A CD. You may not be able to squeeze in 12" woofers there but 10" should fit from what I can see on the spec sheet.
On DIY audio, Weltersys did a synergy (SynTrip) with 10" woofers and a 1.4" CD. On the Klipsch site, someone synergized a K402 horn with 15" woofers, so it is definitely do able. And yes, you may need to do some work (fashion a "volume plug") to extend the high end of the woofer.
That is what I originally had thought of, but someone said you couldn't do it because of the way the throat is shaped. It would def be a lot easier to do. I looked at the one on the Klipsch Forum, but Klipsch has stopped letting people just by the horn for $300...now they want you to buy the whole assembly for $1200.

If it is doable on the JBL 2360A... I would rather go that route.

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post #142 of 145 Old 10-27-2016, 02:22 PM
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That is what I originally had thought of, but someone said you couldn't do it because of the way the throat is shaped. It would def be a lot easier to do. I looked at the one on the Klipsch Forum, but Klipsch has stopped letting people just by the horn for $300...now they want you to buy the whole assembly for $1200.

If it is doable on the JBL 2360A... I would rather go that route.
I agree if it is the version with the really long throat/throat adapter it might not be suitable. but if not, its worth at least serious thought. you are the guy that owns the horns and has them to look at so you have to make the final judgement. Is there a big enough flat space to epoxy on a piece of plywood to mount the driver? Can you get the holes close enough to the apex so the reflection null doesn't kill you?
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post #143 of 145 Old 10-27-2016, 02:34 PM
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I agree if it is the version with the really long throat/throat adapter it might not be suitable. but if not, its worth at least serious thought. you are the guy that owns the horns and has them to look at so you have to make the final judgement. Is there a big enough flat space to epoxy on a piece of plywood to mount the driver? Can you get the holes close enough to the apex so the reflection null doesn't kill you?
Mine has the long throat adapter. I just checked and it is only about 1 1/2" wide (top/bottom), and about 10" long. The adapter is cast metal. I think I could cut the slot in the top and bottom of the adapter, and that would give several inches between the 2 woofers. The other option would be to do it from the sides which would require grinding off the loops for hanging, and the ports would be maybe 1" from each other. Would the driver have to be directly on the horn...or could it be remotely mounted at the end of a port? At least if i can do it on the adapter (or make a new adapter) it wouldn't be as costly as replacing the horn.

Without the throat adapter I have about a 10" flat area on each side, but we are still talking about 1 1/2" apart for the side walls.

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post #144 of 145 Old 10-27-2016, 03:09 PM
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Mine has the long throat adapter. I just checked and it is only about 1 1/2" wide (top/bottom), and about 10" long. The adapter is cast metal. I think I could cut the slot in the top and bottom of the adapter, and that would give several inches between the 2 woofers. The other option would be to do it from the sides which would require grinding off the loops for hanging, and the ports would be maybe 1" from each other. Would the driver have to be directly on the horn...or could it be remotely mounted at the end of a port? At least if i can do it on the adapter (or make a new adapter) it wouldn't be as costly as replacing the horn.

Without the throat adapter I have about a 10" flat area on each side, but we are still talking about 1 1/2" apart for the side walls.
the problem with that long throat adapter,, or an exponential horn in general, is that it has a cutoff frequency below which it won't give any output. This one is designed for horn loading probably only above 300 hz or so. If you "stick" woofers on it, you won't get much output below the cutoff frequency, whatever it is. I'm not sure what you'd get removing the long throat adapter and making a much shorter one. that is where some horn response sim would come in
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post #145 of 145 Old 10-27-2016, 03:22 PM
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the problem with that long throat adapter,, or an exponential horn in general, is that it has a cutoff frequency below which it won't give any output. This one is designed for horn loading probably only above 300 hz or so. If you "stick" woofers on it, you won't get much output below the cutoff frequency, whatever it is. I'm not sure what you'd get removing the long throat adapter and making a much shorter one. that is where some horn response sim would come in
Well it was worth a try. I guess it will be back to designing a whole horn then. Thanks for the info.

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