Fanless or Quietest (with Fan) Amplifier to run DIY TC Sounds LMS 5400, 18" with Dual PRs - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 67 Old 10-28-2013, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi All,
Revisiting after a long time. I currently have dual CE4000s running dual subs (LMS 5400 18" with Dual 18" PRs). CE4000s are indeed the best suited for these subs but they are "LOUD". I tried fan mods and one of the amps died a few years ago which I had repaired by Crown so far. Amps have been solid so far and are currently in the garage so I don't hear them that much. However, I may have to relocate the amps back into the house. What are my options today when it comes to fanless amps or ones with fans that are really quiet.
Thanks,
-Jai
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post #2 of 67 Old 10-28-2013, 04:09 PM
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Those are great amplifiers, I'd remote the amps and let the fans operate as they're intended.

However, Brian Oppegaard @ http://www.speakerpower.net/, offers some wonderfully robust plate amps, in addition to his rack-mount models. Made in the US, with US sourced parts, and they're powerful.

Or, depending on your budget, check out LabGruppen, or Powersoft's sublime subwoofer amp offerings.

I can't comment on the clone amps, let alone fan mods for them ,... no first hand knowledge.

Good luck

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post #3 of 67 Old 10-28-2013, 04:27 PM
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I have a a Crown xti 3500 and I have to place my ear within a couple inches of the amp to hear the fan. CROWN xls series and yamaha p7000 amp also have quiet fans. The chase home theater sub 1 does not have any fans.
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post #4 of 67 Old 10-28-2013, 05:30 PM
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Hey Jai.. I know this is off subject, but I would love to hear what your impression is of the two dual LMS PR subs you built. Your DIY thread is quite long, so maybe a link to the right page? I just built my first dual PR (I really like it) so since PR isn't brought up very often around here, I have much interest in your opinion since I have thought about the LMS, or doing another with other drivers I have. Thanks!

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post #5 of 67 Old 10-28-2013, 05:35 PM
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Don't buy a CV5000 if you want a quiet amp! lol
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post #6 of 67 Old 10-28-2013, 06:25 PM
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Don't upgrade to an iTech then, they are hairdryers... loudest amp I own.
1000BTU on mute, 5000BTU at full output. Seriously Crown?

It's been dropping to just below freezing at night here and not much warmer in the day, and I haven't had to use the space heater in my theater yet; and the room stays at room-temp with no heat source other than my AV rack. eek.gifbiggrin.gif

So does that mean that I'm being Green by re-using the heat for half the year? I think so biggrin.gif
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post #7 of 67 Old 10-28-2013, 09:24 PM
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So does that mean that I'm being Green by re-using the heat for half the year? I think so biggrin.gif

Lol..

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post #8 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 12:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Hey Jai.. I know this is off subject, but I would love to hear what your impression is of the two dual LMS PR subs you built. Your DIY thread is quite long, so maybe a link to the right page? I just built my first dual PR (I really like it) so since PR isn't brought up very often around here, I have much interest in your opinion since I have thought about the LMS, or doing another with other drivers I have. Thanks!
Hi Steve,
This particular design was inspired by one of the folks here in avs and really it is the best sub I have ever owned. I have tried the Danley DTS-20, Dual JLf113s and also several other commercial subs like the SVS. I highly respect the offerings from JL and SVS. One thing about the PR design is that it is very important to use the correct setting for the subsonic HP filter. I learned from mistakes and don' t want others to go through the same thing. I used the simulation tools available and also used ETF to get the correct setting for the HP filter. The LMS is an amazing driver. Check out the measurements here that should give you an idea on what to expect. I worked closely with Ilkka when we arrived at this design and the CE4000 amps (suggested by Thy). Many folks contributed to this final design and I think after this was built there were several others who ventured with very good success rates. Good luck. Let me know if you have any specific questions.
Regards,
-Jai
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post #9 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 12:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

I have a a Crown xti 3500 and I have to place my ear within a couple inches of the amp to hear the fan. CROWN xls series and yamaha p7000 amp also have quiet fans. The chase home theater sub 1 does not have any fans.
Hi, This option looks interesting. Are the Crown XTI 3500's easily available now? Between the XLS and p7000 vs XTI which would be to top pick for noise/performance ratio? Minimum 2800 watts at 4 ohms preferred.
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Yes the XLI 3500 is a available at www.americanmusical.com as well as other online retailers. The Xli 3500 is noticeably louder than the XTI 4000 I had a few months ago. The noise to performance ratio between the XLI and XTI is roughly the same. Yamaha P7000 had the lowest distortion out of all three. But I feel the Crown XTI 3500 had the best mix of sound quality, low distortion and a good amount of power for $649. The XLI 3500 is listed at 2700 watts in bridge mode.
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post #11 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Hi Steve,
This particular design was inspired by one of the folks here in avs and really it is the best sub I have ever owned. I have tried the Danley DTS-20, Dual JLf113s and also several other commercial subs like the SVS. I highly respect the offerings from JL and SVS. One thing about the PR design is that it is very important to use the correct setting for the subsonic HP filter. I learned from mistakes and don' t want others to go through the same thing. I used the simulation tools available and also used ETF to get the correct setting for the HP filter. The LMS is an amazing driver. Check out the measurements here that should give you an idea on what to expect. I worked closely with Ilkka when we arrived at this design and the CE4000 amps (suggested by Thy). Many folks contributed to this final design and I think after this was built there were several others who ventured with very good success rates. Good luck. Let me know if you have any specific questions.
Regards,
-Jai

Hey that’s cool Jai! Thanks for sharing and I’ll be sure to check out your link. I recognize your name since we both go back. Most likely from our SVS days? 13 of them biggrin.gif lol. It’s funny you should bring up Ilkka though, the days. wink.gif Anyway with a driver such as the LMS I would definitely do the hp. I’m using the CSS SDX 12” driver now in a bedroom, but I do have a 15” SDX in a LLT stored away. I could also use one of my mae-x’s. Not so sure the mae-x would be a good candidate, seems like Josh tried one and it possibly didn’t work out so well? I dunno, seems like I always have 2-4 builds in thought though lol. One thing I do know, all the subs I’ve bought or built, the PR alighnment beats my previous bias against it into the ground! I most likely read a bad build or something, and just decided it wasn’t worth it?? Anyway thanks for the handout and I’ll keep your kind gesture in mind if I ever do the LMS-PR then.. much appreciated.

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post #12 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 07:06 AM
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The crown XLS's are great amps...quiet, light and have rca inputs. Only issue is they roll off at around 20Hz so you will loose your very bottom end. I love mine for full range but went to a peavey IPR for my sealed 18's and gained significant output below 20Hz.

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post #13 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Hi, This option looks interesting. Are the Crown XTI 3500's easily available now? Between the XLS and p7000 vs XTI which would be to top pick for noise/performance ratio? Minimum 2800 watts at 4 ohms preferred.

I own a couple Yamaha P series amps and the fans never turn on so they are as silent as you can get wink.gif
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post #14 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 08:42 AM
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"The crown XLS's are great amps...quiet, light and have rca inputs. Only issue is they roll off at around 30Hz..."

source?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #15 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"The crown XLS's are great amps...quiet, light and have rca inputs. Only issue is they roll off at around 30Hz..."

source?

There are other threads where amps are said to have roll off at a specific frequency. Admittedly, I know very little about the science of amplification. I am curious, however, as to how amps with similar power rating affect frequency response (if in fact they do). Suggested reading?

Thanks,

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post #16 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by subyguy View Post

The crown XLS's are great amps...quiet, light and have rca inputs. Only issue is they roll off at around 30Hz so you will loose your very bottom end. I love mine for full range but went to a peavey IPR for my sealed 18's and gained significant output below 20Hz.
I am curious about this 30Hz roll-off. What is the -3dB point or at 20Hz how much do I lose? Is it a HP filter that is kicking in?
Subs are tuned to 16Hz
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post #17 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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"The crown XLS's are great amps...quiet, light and have rca inputs. Only issue is they roll off at around 30Hz..."

source?
Source is the .1 LFE from an Integra preamp. The .1 is split as dual mono going thru a Rane. This might possibly change to individual sub outputs as I may update my preamp to take advantage of Audyssey XT32. The Audyssey right now, I pro calibrated but it is XT in the current integra. Not sure what the additional filters ROI is but I may give it a shot.
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post #18 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by realtight View Post

I own a couple Yamaha P series amps and the fans never turn on so they are as silent as you can get wink.gif
Hi, What are the P's driving? Is it a P7000? The quietness is definitely attractive and the specs look good. How do they sound?
Any thoughts on how this would work for my sub?
Thanks!
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post #19 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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I own a couple Yamaha P series amps and the fans never turn on so they are as silent as you can get wink.gif
Reviews are mixed on the P7000 and lots of opinions on why it is not a good heavy-duty subwoofer amp. Would like your opinon.
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post #20 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 12:58 PM
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Hi, What are the P's driving? Is it a P7000? The quietness is definitely attractive and the specs look good. How do they sound?
Any thoughts on how this would work for my sub?
Thanks!

I have a P7000s pushing 2 sealed Ascendant Audio Avalanche 18's and a P5000s pushing a pair of large 13cft Avalanche 18's.

They sound fantastic! My system is ruler flat down to 10hz so if there is any type of roll off on the amp - I'm not seeing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 
Reviews are mixed on the P7000 and lots of opinions on why it is not a good heavy-duty subwoofer amp. Would like your opinon.

I would ignore anyone saying these amps shouldn't be used for home theater subs... ridiculous!
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post #21 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtight View Post

I have a P7000s pushing 2 sealed Ascendant Audio Avalanche 18's and a P5000s pushing a pair of large 13cft Avalanche 18's.

They sound fantastic! My system is ruler flat down to 10hz so if there is any type of roll off on the amp - I'm not seeing it.
I would ignore anyone saying these amps shouldn't be used for home theater subs... ridiculous!
Hi. Thanks for clarifying. The FR maybe flat, but as you push it close to reference levels, is it compressing in the lower end is what I am wondering. What Max SPL are you observing in your primary seating position? I am assuming you have an SPL meter. Size of the room and sealed or open? War Of The World (Pod Emerges, ground implosion and Thunder) has some really low stuff and if you push your system to anything close to -6, you should see well in the 120dBC vicinity (set to fast, max, C weighted). Your inputs will be very helpful. Thanks!
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post #22 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"The crown XLS's are great amps...quiet, light and have rca inputs. Only issue is they roll off at around 30Hz..."

source?

That was a typo...meant to say 20Hz. The source is my own personal experience and measurements. It may not be exactly 20Hz but I picked up 10dB at 10Hz when I switched to the IPR with no other changes.

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(2) DIY Eminence 10" coax (rear Surrounds)
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(2) Mach5 UXL-18's sealed
(2) Soundsplinter 15's sealed
Speakers powered by 6 crown xls 1500's
UXL's powered by Peavey IPR-7500

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post #23 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Hi. Thanks for clarifying. The FR maybe flat, but as you push it close to reference levels, is it compressing in the lower end is what I am wondering. What Max SPL are you observing in your primary seating position? I am assuming you have an SPL meter. Size of the room and sealed or open? War Of The World (Pod Emerges, ground implosion and Thunder) has some really low stuff and if you push your system to anything close to -6, you should see well in the 120dBC vicinity (set to fast, max, C weighted). Your inputs will be very helpful. Thanks!

I literally just finished my ported boxes and have only watched a handful of movies so no db measurements yet, sorry! frown.gif Getting everything flat always first priority since the ported subs are actually in the middle of my sidewall in a hidden and now converted bomb shelter.

My room is in my basement so three walls are concrete, dimensions are 24' x 18'. Room is sealed.

Watched Tron last weekend and the scene where he goes into the Tron world was the lowest/loudest part of the movie. My wife was upstairs and said it was the loudest, deepest noise she's ever heard.
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post #24 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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For the P7000. I see the following ratings for Output power; 20Hz-20kHz.

4ohms
950W x 2

8ohms
750W x 2

8ohms; Bridge
1900W

My woofers are 4 ohms. The ratings here don't have anything for 4 ohms bridged. Does it mean, it is not built to deliver for this? The 1Khz ratings specified may not apply to the subwoofer application. Also, 950 watts is not going to be adequate. Thoughts?
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post #25 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 07:11 PM
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4ohms bridged works perfectly fine on both my amps. Had one of my sealed sub's on my p5000 bridged at 4ohms and could pound the crap out of it all day without any issues, fans not even turning on.
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post #26 of 67 Old 10-29-2013, 08:01 PM
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I beat the crap out of my p5000s in a 4ohm bridge and I couldn't get the fans to turn on. Dead quiet. It worked great as a sub amp and had plenty of power.
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post #27 of 67 Old 10-30-2013, 05:59 AM
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Yamaha has a burst spec for their P, and XP amp series @ 4ohm bridged, Not until the more robust tour grade amps do they publish 2ohm stereo, or 4ohm bridge capability.

Their topology (Eee) is essentially über efficient class D, hence the low fan noise, etc. So very little thermal waste, lessens the fan requirement.

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Glad I still have my Crown K2 :-D
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post #29 of 67 Old 10-30-2013, 09:18 AM
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Glad I still have my Crown K2 :-D

It must be due to break down though smile.gif

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post #30 of 67 Old 10-30-2013, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Folks,
Thanks for all the feedback. You know my sub configuration. Between the P7000 and the XLS which would you recommend as a replacement for the CE4000?
-Jai
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