Uh oh.....SALE ON TD18H+ WITH DUSTCAP ( new PB18H+) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 11-01-2013, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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From AE FB page....

"Due to some surplus motor parts we are excited to be able to offer a great deal on an 18" woofer. This will be for a limited time and quantity is limited to 24pcs.

This model PB18H+ is identical to the TD18H+ but has a dustcap instead of a phase plug. They have a suggested upper response limit of 500hz. They have the same high efficiency at 98dB at high 14mm Xmax and all parameters are identical.

All parts are currently in stock except the cones which have a lead time of approximtely 3 weeks. Lead time to deliver the woofers would be 4-6 weeks.

Normally the TD18H+ sells for $449. For a limited time, through Nov15 we are able to offer this woofer with the dustcap instead at a discounted price of only $349! This will be a small quantity limited to 24pcs. After these pieces are gone they will return to the normal pricing. Contact us to get your order in while these are still available!"


Which on of you maniacs are going to grab all 24? tongue.gif
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post #2 of 24 Old 11-01-2013, 10:25 AM
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Hmmmm.

Crap!

Must.......resist.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #3 of 24 Old 11-01-2013, 11:09 AM
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I looked for this on their website and couldn't find anything about PB18H+.
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post #4 of 24 Old 11-01-2013, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I looked for this on their website and couldn't find anything about PB18H+.

It doesn't look like it has been updated yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Hmmmm.

Crap!

Must.......resist.

I had the same reaction! biggrin.gif
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post #5 of 24 Old 11-02-2013, 09:15 AM
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That is tempting!
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post #6 of 24 Old 11-02-2013, 10:15 AM
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Ohhh man.. I WANT!!!!

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #7 of 24 Old 11-02-2013, 11:27 AM
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I haven't put anything up on the website yet. We had about 80 vented T-yokes left over from the AV motors. Some went to an OEM customer leaving about 24pcs where I can pass on a discount to the DIY guys. The T-yokes are the exact same size as the TD18 T-yokes. They just have a vented pole and dustcap instead of the solid pole with phase plug. Parameters are identical to the TD18H+. The dustcap adds about 5 grams to the Mms of the driver but that is the only change. That is within tolerance of the overall Mms anyway.

The PB18H+ could become a standard product but the pricing will be similar to the TD18H+. This deal is good for only the 24pcs. We had 3 people get quotes yesterday and we are waiting on payment. If they buy them as expected, we are about half through this quantity already. After they are gone the pricing goes back up $100.

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post #8 of 24 Old 11-03-2013, 01:08 AM
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John,

Is there a benefit to buying the woofer with the phase plug over the woofer with the dustcap?

Thanks,
jeff

Edit: Nevermind, I found your answer on diyAudio. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/192215-phase-plug.html#post2633826
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post #9 of 24 Old 11-04-2013, 08:20 AM
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The benefits are the extra power handling and extra bandwidth. The TD18H+ get used in live sound applications where they are fed 1000-1500W each and abused for hours on end. One local sound company runs dual 18's off bridged Crest 8001 amps. Drivers are seeing 1400W continually for electronic shows that are very bass heavy. I wouldn't recommend that with the dustcaps instead of phase plug. If they will only be seeing occasional peaks of 1000W or so, the dustcaps will be fine. The heat will still be pulled from the coil quickly. It is just exchanged through the pole vent into the cabinet. This is the same as nearly every other pro audio woofer though. Also unless they are going to be used upwards of 500hz the dustcap driver will function just fine. There is a slight resonance with the dustcap about 800hz. If that is well out of your usable range then there is no issue.

For these reasons they will work very well for most subwoofer/midbass use in the home theater realm making them a great deal at this price.
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post #10 of 24 Old 11-04-2013, 10:16 AM
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sweet deal.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #11 of 24 Old 11-05-2013, 08:06 AM
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If only I needed mid-basses for some reason. Oh the person on here making that active system with focal and JL drivers could have jumped on this deal.

YID DIY
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post #12 of 24 Old 11-05-2013, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

The benefits are the extra power handling and extra bandwidth. The TD18H+ get used in live sound applications where they are fed 1000-1500W each and abused for hours on end. One local sound company runs dual 18's off bridged Crest 8001 amps. Drivers are seeing 1400W continually for electronic shows that are very bass heavy. I wouldn't recommend that with the dustcaps instead of phase plug. If they will only be seeing occasional peaks of 1000W or so, the dustcaps will be fine. The heat will still be pulled from the coil quickly. It is just exchanged through the pole vent into the cabinet. This is the same as nearly every other pro audio woofer though. Also unless they are going to be used upwards of 500hz the dustcap driver will function just fine. There is a slight resonance with the dustcap about 800hz. If that is well out of your usable range then there is no issue.

For these reasons they will work very well for most subwoofer/midbass use in the home theater realm making them a great deal at this price.

Hi John, I am interested in your thoughts. I currently have a TD15M with a SEOS 12 (soon to be a SEOS 15 then soon to be a SEOS 18). I am interested in adding these 18's to the mix. I would go passive on the CD and use the minidsp to go active between the td15M and the 18. Where would you recommend crossing these? What sized sealed enclosure would you recommend for the 18? The td15m is in a sealed enclosure of about 3 ft^3.

I use this system for movies and music. I would love to be able to run these in two channel mode full range for music.

I have two JTR Captivators for subs so I would be interested in your thoughts on how low the 18's you are selling would optimally be run.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Brian
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post #13 of 24 Old 11-13-2013, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btinindy View Post

Hi John, I am interested in your thoughts. I currently have a TD15M with a SEOS 12 (soon to be a SEOS 15 then soon to be a SEOS 18). I am interested in adding these 18's to the mix. I would go passive on the CD and use the minidsp to go active between the td15M and the 18. Where would you recommend crossing these? What sized sealed enclosure would you recommend for the 18? The td15m is in a sealed enclosure of about 3 ft^3.

I use this system for movies and music. I would love to be able to run these in two channel mode full range for music.

I have two JTR Captivators for subs so I would be interested in your thoughts on how low the 18's you are selling would optimally be run.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Brian

If used in a stereo pair you could go anywhere from 200hz up to 500hz while still keeping about 90 degrees from them. I would typically measure response and see where the baffle rolloff is affecting the TD15M's and then cross right in that area. Most likely somewhere around 250hz.

I'm not sure which Captivators you have. It really doesn't matter too much in this case though.

You have a couple options for the enclosure. For maximum output, a vented enclosure 6-8cf tuned from 28-32hz will give you a massive amount of output and lots of efficiency. You will be able to input close to 1500W while staying within Xmax limits and reach almost 125dB range at 30hz from a single woofer. If you do have this much room available and can go vented, I would suggest taking them as low as possible. The woofers in the Captivator will move more air due to the higher excursion, but I don't believe they have anything done in terms of reducing flux modulation, linearizing inductance, etc. The PB18H+ (TD18H+) is extremely low distortion due to the Lambda motor design and also about 7dB more efficient than the woofer in the Captivator. You could play with the crossover point easily if you are using the minidsp, but I would be willing to bet the PB18H+ will sound significantly better all the way down to 30hz. I guarantee you will hear details in fast bass guitar notes that never seemed to exist before. It will also give you more overall output than the Captivator is capable of all the way down to that point. You could also go smaller, maybe 4 cf tuned to 38hz as another option if that is too big.

Sealed is an option, although you give up output and efficiency and EQ is required to extend the response. The larger you go with the enclosure, the more efficient the low end becomes.

The following shows 18" in 8cf vented tuned to 28hz in green, sealed 3cf in red, sealed 4cf in orange, and sealed 6cf in yellow.



My overall suggestion though is to go vented, as large as you can up to 6-8 cubic foot, then take them down as low as possible.

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post #14 of 24 Old 11-13-2013, 08:49 AM
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Additionally just a reminder that the 15th is coming up quickly. Several people were waiting to get an order in but I don't want anyone to miss the cutoff.

John E. Janowitz
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post #15 of 24 Old 11-13-2013, 09:07 AM
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A quick image of the PB18H+ with the dustcap


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post #16 of 24 Old 11-13-2013, 05:41 PM
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"I guarantee you will hear details in fast bass guitar notes that never seemed to exist before."

have you found a measurement yet that reveals that difference? perhaps spectral contamination or something along those lines?

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post #17 of 24 Old 11-13-2013, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I guarantee you will hear details in fast bass guitar notes that never seemed to exist before."

have you found a measurement yet that reveals that difference? perhaps spectral contamination or something along those lines?

I haven't ever tried to pin down a measurement showing this. The FEA models clearly show massive differences between drivers with and without shorting rings. This is apparent in comparing cone position with respect to time. Especially in cases when more than one tone is played at a time. Flux modulation clearly can cause this. The permanent magnetic field moves with each stroke in and out. The more current in the coil, the worse it moves. The magnetic field generated in the coil causes motion when it pushes against this permanent field. Whenever this permanent magnetic field is moving rather than stationary, the coils position is going to be affected. Shorting the eddy currents completely in simulation puts the cone position back to where it should be in the time domain.

Most people never consider how strong the coils own magnetic field can be. They think it is just a minor amount and not really a factor. In some woofers it is massive though. Looking at a field coil woofer gives a good comparison of the amount of magnetic strength that is seen. Lambda had looked into doing field coil motors on the TD woofers at one point. From what Nick explained, it would take about 1lb of copper in the windings to make an electromagnet that equals the strength of the current TD motor. Again, that is 453 grams of copper to equal the full motor strength of a TD woofer. Now consider how much copper may be in some large coils. If a coil had 200+ grams of windings in it, energized with a high amount of power it is easy to see how this could have a significant affect on the permanent field.

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post #18 of 24 Old 11-13-2013, 08:07 PM
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thanks.

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post #19 of 24 Old 11-14-2013, 10:47 AM
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I have had a few people PM me and ask about using these for actual subwoofer use with EQ. There is no concern with doing this. It is something that is done regularly in applications like recording studios to cover the bottom octaves. They can move a significant amount more air than most pro woofers, about 3.4L peak-peak at the 14mm rated Xmax. Also realize that these are built for pro audio use where they take a lot of abuse. The suspension is designed to allow them to move much further than the rated Xmax. They can move as much as 5.2L before reaching the suspension limits without concerns of damage.

This is a video showing the TD18H+ operating at high excursion with no suspension noise to upwards of 1.5" peak to peak.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152464322525501&set=vb.85313456865&type=3&theater

They are a great candidate for a low tuned box with EQ or a sealed box with EQ when you want to get down to the lowest octave. The only drawback would be large enclosure size, but if that is not an issue, these can be a great value. In comparison, the LMS Ultra 5400 will give 5.4L peak to peak displacement at Xmax. A pair of the PB18H+ will give 6.8L displacement at 14mm rated Xmax. You get more low end output while also having a massive 12dB more efficiency in the midbass.

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post #20 of 24 Old 11-14-2013, 08:31 PM
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I'd be willing to put a couple, or four, of these to the test against my pair of 2011 captivators --- I've heard a lot of different subs at meets, but I haven't heard anything in all the a/bing I've done that clearly had more detail than anything else when quality tiers were comparable, and sub systems kept within their means.

desertdome lives pretty close - it seems he's an advocate - if he buys a set maybe we can make it happen.

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post #21 of 24 Old 11-28-2013, 08:54 AM
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What diameter and length for the ports for the 4 cubic foot 38hz tune?
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post #22 of 24 Old 12-05-2013, 04:38 AM
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"If you went with a slot vent 2" x 18" and about 15" long would get you the required tuning and good to over 1000W input before running into vent velocity issues. If you were to go with a 3" x 18" vent 23" long is good to upwards of 1500W before running into vent velocity issues." This is the answer I got from John in case anyone else was curious as well. Does anyone know the driver displacement so I can subtract that from the enclosure volume? I couldn't find it on any specs listed.
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post #23 of 24 Old 12-05-2013, 06:55 AM
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I've seen this before and used the numbers:
Quote:
The average displacement of various driver sizes:

8 inch - 1.0 liter
10 inch - 1.5 liters
12 inch - 2.5 liters
15 inch - 4.0 liters
18 inch - 6.5 liters
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post #24 of 24 Old 12-05-2013, 09:04 AM
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Thx dd
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