2 or 4 sealed subs small room - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 37 Old 11-08-2013, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a small closed dedicated HT room of 13 X 14 X 8. I have 4 5ft x 16in DIY bass traps in each corner.
http://web.archive.org/web/20090809093338/http://geocities.com/jonrisch/basstrap.htm
I have B&W 604 towers up front, 603, for sides, and 601 for rear so I do have some mid bass from my mains.

Currently I have a SVS PC-12 plus in the front left corner, and a small DIY CSS SDX-10 ported for smoothing in the back right corner. These locations were determined after doing a sub crawl as I have not yet bought measurement gear. Before doing the EQ with my flagship HK 7550 HD receiver there was a noticeable boom to the bass. The HK 7550HD EQs both subs separately and blends them well. With my small sealed room and the bass boom I got before going with the EQ thinking that I would need less EQ going with a sealed setup.

I moved into this new house over a year ago and have been looking at getting myself new subs since then. Having a 2 and 4 year old in the house I don't get to really play them often but as we all know that does not stop me from wanting new subs.

So I am wondering if it will be harder to blend 4 smaller subs with each sub 1.5 ft out from the each corner along the front and back wall, or just go with 2 larger subs. I am thinking if I go 4 subs I would build using the CSS SDX 12 sealed in a 15-18in box, or maybe just go a little bigger and get the SI HT 18 in the 4 cu ft DIY sound group . I plan to use one crown xls-2500 for each set of subs if I go 4, or for each sub if I go with 2 larger. Thinking if I go with 2 subs I will get the new Sundown Audio ZV4 18, or wait for SI to develop one using the new crazy big surround that Sundown is using. Thinking I will need to go with about a 6 cu ft box for this sub in the same places I have my current subs. Thinking 4 subs would make it harder to pinpoint the subs but also might make it harder to blend well, but having the 2 really big 18s would be quite something to behold when looking at that driver with the huge surround all the time.
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post #2 of 37 Old 11-08-2013, 09:49 AM
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My theater room is a little bigger than yours, 14x20x8. I have two SI 18s, each in a 5cft box, being fed by a single EP2500 in stereo mode. realistically, I have more bass than I'll ever need.
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post #3 of 37 Old 11-08-2013, 10:15 AM
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Regardless of the type, four subs would likely be easier to blend properly, in my opinion/experience. It just affords you much more flexibility.

Just took a look at the SDX12, nice motor, nice driver. Four of those, in four sealed cabs, in your room, with the tools to implement them properly, would be fantastic. I'd be a bit wary of the Crown amp, and it's -3dB point, perhaps a Behringer product may be better suited. If you're after the deep FR that accompanies a sealed alignment, in a small space, you need to be mindful of your electronics signal path Fr. The Crown may compromise that effort.

How much power per driver are you intending for the CSS drivers?

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post #4 of 37 Old 11-08-2013, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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It looks like in a sealed configuration that they could take 1000 watts per driver. Not too worried about the really deep bass. From a thread the last couple of days it seemed that anything below 16Hz was not really noticeable, and I think that is about the crown -3db point. I really want a quiet amp, hence the Crown XLS. Even thinking the dayton plate amp since there is not fan might work to power 2 of them, but that would be 2 ohms and the amp is not supposed to be 2 ohm stable. I put my 7550 HD in the room closet but I already ran RCA cables under the carpet to the sub locations so putting both amps in the closet and having to run speaker cable across the carpet is not desirable. The yamaha P series could also be a possibility since I hear they are quiet.
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post #5 of 37 Old 11-08-2013, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christmclean View Post

It looks like in a sealed configuration that they could take 1000 watts per driver. I really want a quiet amp, hence the Crown XLS. Even thinking the dayton plate amp since there is not fan might work to power 2 of them, but that would be 2 ohms and the amp is not supposed to be 2 ohm stable. I put my 7550 HD in the room closet but I already ran RCA cables under the carpet to the sub locations so putting both amps in the closet and having to run speaker cable across the carpet is not desirable. The yamaha P series could also be a possibility since I hear they are quiet.

The Yamahas are quiet. I'd not get a plate amp unless it was a high end one, like SpeakerPower.

A fan modded Behringer may be an option, as they're well vetted. You'll benefit from a lot of power, even in the small room.
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Not too worried about the really deep bass. From a thread the last couple of days it seemed that anything below 16Hz was not really noticeable, and I think that is about the crown -3db point.

Likewise, there's a significant amount of others that do enjoy the effects below 16hz.

There's a multitude of factors conspiring against one pursuing such realistic and deep playback. However, being mindful of the signal path, possessing a modestly sized room, utilizing a sealed or IB sub system that mates up properly with the acoustic transfer function and reciprocal gains found below a room's modal region, one can find out for themselves.

Our enjoyment of such deep bass isn't purely hearing based. It's a blend of both hearing and a tactile, visceral element, that's not unlike how we encounter potential infrasound sources in our lives. Given sufficient level, I suspect you'll enjoy these benefits too. Our perception doesn't shut down at 16hz, and it's difficult to separate hearing from the motional forces that accompany the deep stuff. I know this, I enjoy playback down to about 7-8hz.

Here's Bruce Thigpen take on ULF, the Rotary.

Best of luck, those drivers are superb. Remember, you can remote your amps, hidden somehow, in a hush box, another room, etc. Fan modding is always an option. Also, if you want the Crown, they are fine amplifiers, they'll serve you well.

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post #6 of 37 Old 11-08-2013, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry I meant the Dayton sa 1000 rack amp but it probably does not have enough power. The amount of power needed for under 20 Hz makes me think I'll need an electrician to get another dedicated 20 amp circuit.

I do like the idea of having four subs. Hoping someone who has gone from 2 to 4 can give me their experience.
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post #7 of 37 Old 11-09-2013, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christmclean View Post

Hoping someone who has gone from 2 to 4 can give me their experience.

Get out of your mind!

Boom, Boom.

Boom, Boom...




http://www.avsforum.com/t/1465660/quad-tc-lms-18-ultra-build-complete

Nuff said! tongue.gif
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post #8 of 37 Old 11-09-2013, 01:02 PM
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I have 6 Trio 12s from CSS and enjoy the <16hz content. Don't need tons of power to get infrasonic. Especially in that room.

I'd definitely go with 4 instead of two. You should get a really nice response.
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post #9 of 37 Old 11-09-2013, 02:25 PM
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Christmclean,

I have a very slightly bigger room...14x17x8 and I can assure you that 4x 12 would sound awesome in your room!
I had 4 MFW-15 in my room and had plenty bass!
I have way more now but you don't sound like you need that much. (I on OTOH need ALOT!)

I am absolutely sure with 4x 12 that you're talking, you'll be plenty satisfied!


Re: 7550HD

What an under rated amp you got there!
I should know cause I have the exact same model...it is an amazing amp and don't get rid of it!
Earlier this year I made a big mistake and bought a 3313CI and couldn't believe how bad it sounded compared to the 7550HD!
I tried everything! Audessy and without. it just couldn't keep up with the 7550HD. Completely different sound!
It amazed cause on Graph it look very flat but it had no oomph! It sounded thin and backgrounded.
I had to resell it cause I couldn't take it anymore!

One thing you should know about the 7550HD...I can't stand the EZSet EQ and what it does to the sound!
I've gone 3 times to HK repair site (Here in Canada) and the third time was invited to the engineering department.
They were 3 guys and we went through a bunch of tests.

I specifically told them to graph the results and it ALWAYS destroyed the low end
It dramatically cuts the low end (20HZ down if I remember)

When done and after the engineer saw the graph he finally acknowledged that this was WRONG and would report it back to head quarters!
I've never heard back from him. He probably thinks I'm a wacko! wink.gif

Despite that I still love the sound the 7550HD produces..I just don't use the EZSet EQ crap.

Just thought you should know...
You have a great (under rated) amp!

Go for the 12's I'm sure you'll be happy!

And ENJOY!
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post #10 of 37 Old 11-09-2013, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christmclean View Post

The amount of power needed for under 20 Hz makes me think I'll need an electrician to get another dedicated 20 amp circuit.

I do like the idea of having four subs. Hoping someone who has gone from 2 to 4 can give me their experience.

Utilizing a multi sub approach, helps lessen the room's incredible dominance down below the Shroeder frequency. The room absolutely owns the bass experience down in the bass range. We're talking below 100-200hz and below, depending on the room size.

I always like to share this image, illustrating how strong the room shapes the response;



As you can see, regardless which sub, from which mfr.,.. was measured, they all were relatively uniform in their FR in the listening position. This is the modal resonances imparting their influence on the final sound. When you properly use a multiple sub/multiple location approach, you take the response back into your hands, lessening the modal issues.

There are differing ways to go about this, multiple subs being one solid approach. The sweet spot in the multi-sub approach is four. Any more, and one doesn't fully realize the modal smoothing benefits that are enjoyed moving from one to two, and up to four. Headroom benefits, yes.

If you've not seen these, you'll get a lot out of them, Part 1 is a good overview. However, Part 2 is even more focused on subs, in a room, acoustics etc.

Those four drivers, in four boxes, in your room, will be superb one everything is blended EQ'd, and time aligned. Remember, it's all about the room, and the integration of the subs to the space. Bass traps will help smooth the response further, and tighten up the note-to-note delineation and clarity. Again, time alignment with your mains, and bass trapping will increase perceived speed, clarity and tight punchy sound. EQ'ing will smooth the sound, allowing all notes to be equally heard as the engineer intended.

If you only have the capability to manipulate two set of two subs, that's fine. You'll still get nearly all the benefits possible with a four sub approach. Headroom wise, you go up 6dB from 1 to 2 subs, and from 2 to 4 again you yield a 6dB gain. So 12dB (this is huge) over a similar 1 sub approach, plus the smoothing.

This, is Toole's paper on bass in listening rooms, good stuff for sure.

Granted, you may have seen those papers, maybe not, hope this helps.
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post #11 of 37 Old 11-09-2013, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I really do like the HK 7550HD. I do use a Boston Acoustics A7200 7 channel amp, so the HK 7550HD is only the pre. The sound is more detailed with the HK7550HD but it has more mid full rich sound using the amp. I mostly bought the amp as I could not stand the main fan coming on when I had it out in the main listening room. The HDMI board fan still comes on but I know have the equipment rack in the closet so I don't hear the fan. I really want a quiet amp for my subs so still thinking the Crown XLS even though it does have some rolloff under 20Hz.

I agree with the EZSet EQ that the bass does get lowered. I did not realize that it was cutting off frequency I thought it was just smoothing. I had a power outage and the HK 7550HD lost all the settings so there was not EQ applied. The bass sounded quite boomy at the same levels the subs were set at. I am going to have to get a measurement unit so I can check what it is doing. I tried looking to see if there was a new firmware version for the HK but I could not find it. Maybe they included your findings in a new firmware update. But last time I had to send mine in to get the firmware to upgrade it to 3D capable. I keep thinking about getting another pre but I am pretty happy with the HK 7550HD, but Audyssey does seem like it keeps getting better with XT32 and Sub EQ.

Thanks for all for the push to four subs. Now if I can just talk myself into 4 really big subs instead of 12s, although I would probably be happy with just 12s.
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post #12 of 37 Old 11-09-2013, 04:46 PM
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You don't care about low end, you don't play loud: 12s are fine.
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post #13 of 37 Old 11-09-2013, 07:57 PM
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Christmclean,

Check what it does with this graph
This says it all


Look at what it does on the low end!!!
I changed NOTHING. I only ran it to show the difference,
I'm telling you, when I showed the engineer, he really had nothing to say! I know he was dumbfounded.
I'm sure when I left they gathered together and said...ah don't worry guys he's the ONLY one who will notice this FLAW!

Anyways...
Green is EZSet OFF
Purple is EZSet ON!
Oh an BTW I must've ran the EZSet at least 300 times!!!!!!
Always the same results...

It just boosts all the signal but completely destroys the low end!
When I had the Denon 3313CI..Audessy did a GREAT job flattening ALL the signal and actually boosted the low end (which is a good thing for me)
But the sound was terrible to me compared to the 7550HD. It felt empty, distant, no authority like the 7550HD.

Re the last firmware: it's version 4.43.
I'm pretty sure that's what yours is at.

BTW, I say you'll be happy with 4x 12's cause you liked the sound that EZSet did for you.
With 12's that could be a good thing cause it will protect your subs from playing the ULF stuff.
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post #14 of 37 Old 11-10-2013, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I think EZ Set has reduced the boomy sound and it makes the vocals more discernible. It looks like it does some smoothing but I would have thought it would do a better job. It looks like is using EZ Set EQ that you don't need a HPF on your sub amp. 4.43 is the firmware version that I have. I am guessing they don't think it is a flaw since only a few of you crazies have flat response down below 20, let alone 10. I had the HK 3550 as a loaner from HK for awhile and it did not quite have the large sound that the 7550HD has. Maybe you need to step up in the denon line like the 4520 would be more comparable. I could try turning off the EZ Set EQ and just turning down the subs, but my current ported subs drop have similar drop after 20 anyway.
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post #15 of 37 Old 11-10-2013, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is a screen shot of the Dayton RS 18 in a 4cu ft versus a TC sounds 12 in a 1cu ft box.


There is only a 3-5 DB difference in the response. Not too bad comparing a 12 to an 18. The SDX 12 models very closely to a the lmd-r 12.

It looks like the system might not play as loud with 4 12s to compared to 4 18s but it will play as low.
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post #16 of 37 Old 11-10-2013, 06:49 AM
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Yup, like I said, I use 12s and have no problem playing low. I just can't get the output some of these guys can. My subs die before my mains, which is backwards to most here. But you will most likely have huge room gain below 30hz. Unlike a winisd model which will show the anechoic response. 4 12s in your room is nuts. My room is 11 x 33 and open to all other areas of the house. Yet I get loads of gain.

And then I won't be alone in the 12 club smile.gif
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post #17 of 37 Old 11-10-2013, 07:15 AM
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I'd vote for four subs too, I went from one crappy commercial to four 15" sealed DIY boxes. It was easy to get fantastic response by positioning only. I've got a miniDSP but it's not even in the chain. Pop in for a listen next time you're in the ABQ.

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post #18 of 37 Old 11-10-2013, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
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I'd vote for four subs too, I went from one crappy commercial to four 15" sealed DIY boxes. It was easy to get fantastic response by positioning only. I've got a miniDSP but it's not even in the chain. Pop in for a listen next time you're in the ABQ.

Good points, the need for EQ'ing is lessened too

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post #19 of 37 Old 11-10-2013, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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It seems that the HK 7550HD EZ Set EQ has similar characteristics to the crown XLS amps. Both look to have a -12 DB filter at 20HZ. It does seem if I am going the sealed route it would be a shame to miss out on the ULF from the subs. Might have to consider another amp and look at not using the HK EZ Set EQ. As FOH has said 4 subs would lessen the need for EQ.

I hope I can get down to ABQ for a listen soon, love to hear what 4 subs can do. It is awesome having another basshead in NM.
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post #20 of 37 Old 11-11-2013, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christmclean View Post

It seems that the HK 7550HD EZ Set EQ has similar characteristics to the crown XLS amps. Both look to have a -12 DB filter at 20HZ. It does seem if I am going the sealed route it would be a shame to miss out on the ULF from the subs. Might have to consider another amp and look at not using the HK EZ Set EQ. As FOH has said 4 subs would lessen the need for EQ.
I hope I can get down to ABQ for a listen soon, love to hear what 4 subs can do. It is awesome having another basshead in NM.

Lessen the need, not do away with it, by that I mean lessen the need for modal resonance EQ'ing ... you'll still need L/T EQ'ing, overcoming the small box volume/airspring.

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post #21 of 37 Old 11-11-2013, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I am going to do this in stages. I am going to build 2 sealed subs with an amp, and use the SVS PC 12 plus with them Hopefully. I can get the ported and sealed to work well together. I have been reading that some people have been having good luck blending the two. I will see how the two go and see if it puts me over the top for 2 more, or if I think that I have plenty.

I will need to get an amp to do some L/T EQ'ing. Hoping the Crown XLS will work for this part. The fan noise really bothers me and, hence the XLS, and I already ran cables under the carpet to the sub locations so putting them in the gear closet will not work well. Why couldn't I have ran speaker wire instead of RCA cables.
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post #22 of 37 Old 11-12-2013, 05:09 AM
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Hi Chris,

Just a couple thoughts.

1. Get a measurement MIC and download REW for free. Having measurement capability is a requirement IMO. You might find that your response is flat enough with the two sub positions you have and in that case two would be better than four. Four will likely be a flatter response but if two works adequately well I would pick the extra output with a little EQ to smooth. I am a bit of a bass head also *disclaimer*.

2. I would recommend the Behringer Inuke amps with DSP. Their fans are easily switchable to quiet versions and the dsp is robust and user friendly.

3. The Ultimax 12s are decent little drivers and are much cheaper with free shipping. IDK how they model against the CSS drivers both are excellent choices. You can get the Daytons with the flat packs shipped for less than the CSS ones though, just sayin.

4. You will never have too much output, forget that notion. biggrin.gif

Have fun and good luck!

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post #23 of 37 Old 11-12-2013, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the tip. I will have to get some measurement gear. I hear REW is a little hard to use but very powerful. Is there any easy button measurement gear, or should I just bite the bullet and learn REW.

Having only 2 subs would make it easier than building 4. When looking at the dayton flat packs I was thinking the 18HO. I emailed Dayton on the SA 1000 on running 2 of them on the same amp. They got back to me yesterday and said it could be done if wired in series as parallel would be a 2 ohm load that they are not rated for. I emailed back and said that would only be 250 watts per driver. He agreed but said that the full power would only be 6DB increase. I guess that is true but I could not see running a 18HO on 250 watts.
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post #24 of 37 Old 11-12-2013, 07:25 AM
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^Agreed. 250W on the Dayton 18 is a waste.

Get the SI18 D4s if you want to use the Dayton SA1000. That way you can net a 4ohm load mono to the SA1000.

Also the SA1000 is a mono amp so you lose multi sub advantage since its one channel just FYI.

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post #25 of 37 Old 11-12-2013, 07:27 AM
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Also on REW I didn't find it that hard to use.

There is a Quick start guide on HTS and here as well. I was up and measuring in a day but I'm still learning all it can do. Very powerful software in the right hands.

Basic FR measurements are pretty darn simple if you take the time to read the how to......

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post #26 of 37 Old 11-18-2013, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I downloaded REW and took a frequency response. My response is pretty flat with a small hump at 75 Hz. I will post a graph later.

I purchased a crown XLS 2500 off another AVS member.

However I just purchased four 18 inch Dayton Ultimax subwoofers. I think I'm going to need a second amp or a one bigger one to power them. I figured why stick with 12s when you can have four of these 18 inch beasts for the same price. Is going to be hard to hide them in my small room so I think my wife might be surprised.
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post #27 of 37 Old 11-18-2013, 12:16 PM
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Hey,

I think you mean HO18, I haven't seen any ultimax 18s?

Nice choice on the woofers, you can never have too much(woofage) just don't cram them into a tiny box and you'll be good.

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post #28 of 37 Old 11-18-2013, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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post #29 of 37 Old 11-18-2013, 12:42 PM
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Sweet!

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post #30 of 37 Old 11-18-2013, 12:55 PM
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Notice the UM 18s won't be in stock until the end of January.
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