AE TD12X vs AE TD12M - AVS Forum
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Old 11-16-2013, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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im torn between which driver to go with a SEOS 12 waveguide. my heart was set on going with a tempest 12 until i heard about AE. the guys over at AE  th. Johny would build me a baffle since erich only has flat packs for what he's selling. i'm looking to build a taller tower. like 40" high. i listen to mostly metal. im about 60% music 40% ht. i like it loud with some serious double kick-drum. my biggest concern with the AE TD12M is not having any lowend and requiring a sub at all times. other concern is with the AE TD12X... sacrifice efficiency and midrange. john also threw out there going with an AE TD15H in a two-way waveguide system. i dont know about that. 15's dont play to well above 1000hz. hell, what do i know... im just a newb. help please. i'm ready to build now! waiting on my alpine sub to get here to start building a lilwreck! video below is my man-cave. getting all new gear.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv5ouypB3pA

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Old 11-16-2013, 01:54 PM
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yeah, that's the problem everybody runs into because you need "loud" on both sides of the typical mains/sub crossover region.

i'm going to bet that you end up with some sort of horns for the subs. as for the mains, do you plan to run them off avr power or a separate amp?

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Old 11-16-2013, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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yeah, that's the problem everybody runs into because you need "loud" on both sides of the typical mains/sub crossover region.

i'm going to bet that you end up with some sort of horns for the subs. as for the mains, do you plan to run them off avr power or a separate amp?

im going with a separate power amp(s) paired up with an avr. also going to get a minidsp to control everything

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Old 11-16-2013, 03:22 PM
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mtg90 designed a passive version of the td15m (4ohm) / seos12 / dna360 for chop. they might really hit the mark for mains.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1457166/s-e-o-s-r-mega-build/1110#post_23796258

with outboard amps and 500 watts or so per channel, they should be up in the "louder than you want" ballyard, clean too.

then find some subwoofage that will get into the 130db ballyard for peaks and that should be it, unless you are completely insane.

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Old 11-16-2013, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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mtg90 designed a passive version of the td15m (4ohm) / seos12 / dna360 for chop. they might really hit the mark for mains.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1457166/s-e-o-s-r-mega-build/1110#post_23796258

with outboard amps and 500 watts or so per channel, they should be up in the "louder than you want" ballyard, clean too.

then find some subwoofage that will get into the 130db ballyard for peaks and that should be it, unless you are completely insane.

 

 

that design is very similar to what john at AE informed me of. did buddy ever build that speaker? sounds like a winner!

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Old 11-16-2013, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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 anybody else have experience with these drivers?

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Old 11-17-2013, 05:24 AM
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with the td15m?

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Old 11-17-2013, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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with the td15m?

with the td12m td12x and the 15's. AE in general lol.

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Old 11-17-2013, 09:50 AM
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Any of the AE "M" drivers will work best with SEOS waveguides. I've measured the 10M and 15M, both have very smooth response.

Mike
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Old 11-17-2013, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Any of the AE "M" drivers will work best with SEOS waveguides. I've measured the 10M and 15M, both have very smooth response.

they work best with the "M" drivers but you must run a sub at all times? never 2ch without a sub?

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Old 11-17-2013, 10:53 AM
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With the 15M in a ported enclosure, you may be fine without a sub for 2 channel music. With other AE drivers, you will have more low end excursion, but with rougher response up top. I will have measurements of the 15S this week.

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Old 11-17-2013, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
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With the 15M in a ported enclosure, you may be fine without a sub for 2 channel music. With other AE drivers, you will have more low end excursion, but with rougher response up top. I will have measurements of the 15S this week.

john at AE is recommending the TD15H with a SEOS15. here's his email regarding this matter to me. not sure if he has over-stock of the TD15H's and is trying to get rid of them.

 

 

 

"I am sure Erich will be offering some baffles soon.  If not, I could cut something on my CNC here also for similar to what he is charging for baffles.  A taller tower with the TD15H and SEOS15 would be great.  You can get it tuned down under 30hz covering the low B on a bass guitar nicely.  This is what I do for a lot of the smaller subs for live sound.  In a room that size would be able to get crazy loud. You would want to get about 17"-18" wide to do that.   You would want the waveguide to be about ear height when you are sitting.  40-42" which would make the total height about 46-48" then.  Overall I would say 48Hx17Wx 14 deep tuned to 26hz looks great.  Little bit of rolloff on the low end so it doesn't get boomy and overpowering but could play down to 25hz without issue.  And you are good to about 1000W input before you run out of excursion and are reaching almost 125dB."

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Old 11-17-2013, 11:28 AM
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john at AE is recommending the TD15H with a SEOS15. here's his email regarding this matter to me. not sure if he has over-stock of the TD15H's and is trying to get rid of them.
I would doubt that to be the case as he doesn't stock anything. The 15M has very smooth response past 1K, but the 15H still may have useable response up to the SEOS-15's lower cut off, I'd love to see some measurements of them.

Mike
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Old 11-17-2013, 03:42 PM
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they work best with the "M" drivers but you must run a sub at all times? never 2ch without a sub?

What's the matter with using a sub for music?

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Old 11-17-2013, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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What's the matter with using a sub for music?

well... to me, pro audio drivers lack in midbass. therefore, you have to cross the subs higher to compensate. if your running multiple large cone subs with 2ch, you have to play with the eq and placement of the sub(s) when you want to switch to watching movies. or run different subs for each application.

 

sound waves from both your speakers are colliding with each other and due to the phase angles not lining up with each other they will add and subtract from each other, not necessarily amounting up to more volume. Again more speaker and power will not alleviate this effect. This also causes severe deviations of amplitude at higher frequencies causing what is known as the comb filter effect. When comb filtering happens your brains ability to sample that sounds qualities is greatly diminished because much of the information is either physically being destroyed due to phase cancellation or being discarded by your brain as it is perceived as invalid. This will actually make your highs sound metallic and harsh not to mention trashing any chance that you have at good imaging or authoritive mid bass

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Old 11-17-2013, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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wow... my post are being moderated. weird

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Old 11-18-2013, 01:49 PM
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well... to me, pro audio drivers lack in midbass...

Interesting; a lot of people around here use them exactly for punchier, more dynamic/uncompressed midbass.

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Old 11-18-2013, 05:28 PM
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"john at AE is recommending the TD15H with a SEOS15. here's his email regarding this matter to me. not sure if he has over-stock of the TD15H's and is trying to get rid of them."

if you want full range, the td15h has a lot more xmax than the td15m, but lower sensitivity on the top end. the 15x might be the best way to go, but would works best in a nice big box. the only time that john j seems to "get rid of drivers" is when he offers special discounts around here and then folks jump all over them. :-)

"...pro audio drivers lack in midbass..."

midbass is precisely what pro audio midwoofers are designed for. maybe there is misunderstanding here...and we aren't sure what you are getting at?

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Old 11-19-2013, 01:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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every pro audio driver i ever stood in front of at a show or in a custom car audio system was loud as hell and sounded like pure hell without subs.

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Old 11-19-2013, 01:43 AM
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But didn't it slap your body pretty good?

I'd say that the low bass was missing, not the midbass

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Old 11-19-2013, 03:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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But didn't it slap your body pretty good?

I'd say that the low bass was missing, not the midbass

mid bass to me is the bringing the subs to the front. listening to bands that drop tune... hear the bass from a guitar, not the bassist.

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Old 11-19-2013, 07:28 AM
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I don't have much experience but i so agree with what you said that the 15M has very smooth response past 1K, but the 15H still may have useable response up to the SEOS-15's lower cut off, I'd love to see some measurements of them.

MhX8ndt

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Old 11-19-2013, 08:42 AM
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I don't have much experience but i so agree with what you said that the 15M has very smooth response past 1K, but the 15H still may have useable response up to the SEOS-15's lower cut off, I'd love to see some measurements of them

All the non-M TDs share the same cone/surround/etc etc, only thing that changes is the coil. For an idea of how the 15H would look up high, you can look at the 15X results from AE themselves, or 3rd party.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:03 AM
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Any of the TD15's can play quite cleanly up to over 1KHz on axis. The TD woofers are not like standard pro style woofers because they have extremely low and linear inductance. The TD15's will have cleaner midrange than most 6"midrange drivers while having massive amounts more headroom and efficiency. The issue is not the on axis response though, but the off axis response of any 15" driver. Once you get to a 15" diameter, the response will be about 3dB down at 800hz at 45 degrees off axis. This is a function of diameter not an individual driver. Most typically 800hz is the upper end limit of using a 15" driver if 90 degrees is required. The difference between 800hz and 1000hz isn't too substantial though and if the woofer has smooth response past that point you are able to push that limit a little. You will have a slight narrowing in response but for most practical purposes this isn't an issue.

The TD15M has the advantage that it is has slightly smoother response between 500hz and 3KHz and additional efficiency. The other TD woofers can still play this range better than most other 15" drivers available. They do have a little more irregular response due to the foam surround instead of the cloth. If you take a look at the 1m and 2m curves on the drivervault measurements though, you can see that the TD15's with foam surrounds are still very smooth.

In this case when desire is for fullrange music without a subwoofer, you typically want to get down a little under 30hz. The low A on piano is 28hz, low B on bass guitar is 32hz. The primary hits on a kick drum are up higher around 90hz, but there is still a lot of information down in that 30hz region. Especially with music that has a lot of double bass and triggers and electronic music. Covering that well is important.

Most of the subwoofers I do for live sound use are tuned in that 28-32hz range. This puts the power band right in that area. This is really the same situation but will have less overall output demand. A single TD15H in 5 cubic foot tuned to 28hz gives this extension. Peaks of 1000W can be input without over excursion of the driver as long as the proper highpass is used. With the efficiency of the woofer it is capable of reaching 120dB at 30hz and 125dB in the midbass and above. It will also have the detail and clarity in the midrange.

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Old 11-19-2013, 03:39 PM
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"The issue is not the on axis response though, but the off axis response of any 15" driver. Once you get to a 15" diameter, the response will be about 3dB down at 800hz at 45 degrees off axis. This is a function of diameter not an individual driver. Most typically 800hz is the upper end limit of using a 15" driver if 90 degrees is required."

horns are spec'd at -6db, so a 90degree horn is down 6db at 45 degree off to each side. so a typical 15" matches just fine at around 1khz or so where the driver is also down about 6db at 45 degrees off axis, but it also depends on the shape of the cone and as john j. mentioned there is some wiggle room to cross higher or lower, but that's the ballpark.

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Old 11-19-2013, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

Any of the TD15's can play quite cleanly up to over 1KHz on axis. The TD woofers are not like standard pro style woofers because they have extremely low and linear inductance. The TD15's will have cleaner midrange than most 6"midrange drivers while having massive amounts more headroom and efficiency. The issue is not the on axis response though, but the off axis response of any 15" driver. Once you get to a 15" diameter, the response will be about 3dB down at 800hz at 45 degrees off axis. This is a function of diameter not an individual driver. Most typically 800hz is the upper end limit of using a 15" driver if 90 degrees is required. The difference between 800hz and 1000hz isn't too substantial though and if the woofer has smooth response past that point you are able to push that limit a little. You will have a slight narrowing in response but for most practical purposes this isn't an issue.

The TD15M has the advantage that it is has slightly smoother response between 500hz and 3KHz and additional efficiency. The other TD woofers can still play this range better than most other 15" drivers available. They do have a little more irregular response due to the foam surround instead of the cloth. If you take a look at the 1m and 2m curves on the drivervault measurements though, you can see that the TD15's with foam surrounds are still very smooth.

In this case when desire is for fullrange music without a subwoofer, you typically want to get down a little under 30hz. The low A on piano is 28hz, low B on bass guitar is 32hz. The primary hits on a kick drum are up higher around 90hz, but there is still a lot of information down in that 30hz region. Especially with music that has a lot of double bass and triggers and electronic music. Covering that well is important.

Most of the subwoofers I do for live sound use are tuned in that 28-32hz range. This puts the power band right in that area. This is really the same situation but will have less overall output demand. A single TD15H in 5 cubic foot tuned to 28hz gives this extension. Peaks of 1000W can be input without over excursion of the driver as long as the proper highpass is used. With the efficiency of the woofer it is capable of reaching 120dB at 30hz and 125dB in the midbass and above. It will also have the detail and clarity in the midrange.
well, john... you have me sold. i was just concerned about giving bass just to have a higher efficient driver. im going with the TD15H. now all i need you to do is build the enclosure and paint it piano white :)
 
 
 
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Old 11-19-2013, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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here is a great example of some serious midbass. rhythm guitar  is shelling pure bass! be warned... it will blow your monitor speakers up. headphones and real speakers only 

 

 

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Old 11-22-2013, 08:31 PM
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I can post pictures next week, but the 15S is indeed clean out past 2k. Nice bottom end too!

Mike
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Old 11-22-2013, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I can post pictures next week, but the 15S is indeed clean out past 2k. Nice bottom end too!


cant wait to see! are you using the 15S in a waveguide?

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:27 PM
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cant wait to see! are you using the 15S in a waveguide?
Using it under a SEOS 24.

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