Dayton Audio UM18-22 18" Ultimax to be released - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 07:43 AM
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BBS, did you happen to read this post? http://www.avsforum.com/t/1500023/dayton-audio-um18-22-18-ultimax-to-be-released/180#post_24282247

It appears they have good reason for delaying the woofer. No need to be so hard on them as you're only discrediting yourself.
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post #362 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 08:39 AM
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BBS, did you happen to read this post? http://www.avsforum.com/t/1500023/dayton-audio-um18-22-18-ultimax-to-be-released/180#post_24282247

It appears they have good reason for delaying the woofer. No need to be so hard on them as you're only discrediting yourself.

Again, I'm not saying that the product shouldn't be delayed or do I care that it is delayed at this point. I'm not being hard on them for the inavailability of the product; I'm being hard on them for constantly presenting the image of a light at the end of a tunnel when, clearly, there isn't one as of yet and it shouldn't be presented that there is one. For the last time, if you read my post above my issue is with them constantly moving the release date every week out another month and another month. I feel bad for guys on this forum that have had their money tied up since Q4 2013 (and they have been charged). Their money should be refunded immediately.

Your link above only further punctuates my earlier point. Your link shows a release date in April which has since been moved to May, June, July etc.

It is what it is. Again, I've run businesses (and currently do) where my nature is to OVER-DELIVER on the expectations of the customer, not under-deliver and disappoint. I understand that not everyone shares my view on this, and that's cool.
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post #363 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 08:58 AM
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Brutal - I've got a similar business management background as you, and I think you are spot on with your comments.  The issue here is around the poor management of expectations and the continued incremental push back of delivery dates.  The "glass-half-empty" side of me says they are doing this to keep existing orders from being canceled.  As long as there is a delivery date that's somewhat in the near future, hope remains alive for anyone who's already ordered.   Which means Parts Express gets to hang on to that cash that's already been paid in.  I applaud their efforts to get their QC under control and deliver a quality product, just think the communication's been managed poorly.   Especially the last forum update, which was quickly followed by the date getting pushed back to July on their site. 

 

On a sort of related note - I've been watching your subwoofer threads closely.  I find myself in a similar position as you.  Not really seeing any good values in the market today, so in a bit of a holding pattern.  Someday. Someday.

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post #364 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 09:03 AM
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Again, I'm not saying that the product shouldn't be delayed or do I care that it is delayed at this point. I'm not being hard on them for the inavailability of the product; I'm being hard on them for constantly presenting the image of a light at the end of a tunnel when, clearly, there isn't one as of yet and it shouldn't be presented that there is one. For the last time, if you read my post above my issue is with them constantly moving the release date every week out another month and another month. I feel bad for guys on this forum that have had their money tied up since Q4 2013 (and they have been charged). Their money should be refunded immediately.

Your link above only further punctuates my earlier point. Your link shows a release date in April which has since been moved to May, June, July etc.

It is what it is. Again, I've run businesses (and currently do) where my nature is to OVER-DELIVER on the expectations of the customer, not under-deliver and disappoint. I understand that not everyone shares my view on this, and that's cool.
Has anyone attempted to receive a refund and been denied?

Keep in mind, many were pre-ordered during their holiday sale. A nice discount was available during that period, it may not make sense for those persons to have their orders canceled and to reorder them for a higher cost, so an automatic refund isn't sensible either.

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post #365 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 09:09 AM
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Keep in mind that when the purchase is made on PE they don't charge your credit card immediately. They make an authorization to make sure that the money is available but they do not hold the money when the order is placed. They won't take the money until the product ships.
I ordered a quad of these with the $100 off sale and saw the authorization and after a week the authorization expired and I have not been charged. It's not like they are holding the money and making interest money off of our cash.
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post #366 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 09:10 AM
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Has anyone attempted to receive a refund and been denied?

Keep in mind, many were pre-ordered during their holiday sale. A nice discount was available during that period, it may not make sense for those persons to have their orders canceled and to reorder them for a higher cost, so an automatic refund isn't sensible either.

I requested a refund and was offered a similar product instead (HO 18). I declined and insisted on the refund. But have not heard back yet.
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post #367 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 09:10 AM
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Keep in mind that when the purchase is made on PE they don't charge your credit card immediately. They make an authorization to make sure that the money is available but they do not hold the money when the order is placed. They won't take the money until the product ships.
I ordered a quad of these with the $100 off sale and saw the authorization and after a week the authorization expired and I have not been charged. It's not like they are holding the money and making interest money off of our cash.

Unless you ordered through paypal
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post #368 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 09:13 AM
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On PayPal they have to give a refund after 30 days though. So a purchase on paypal will be refunded.
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post #369 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 01:35 PM
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Parts exp shows 15" ultimax are available on the 16th (next 3 days)... Is that pretty accurate?

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post #370 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 01:41 PM
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Parts exp shows 15" ultimax are available on the 16th (next 3 days)... Is that pretty accurate?

possibly, but this thread is about the 18"

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post #371 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 01:46 PM
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possibly, but this thread is about the 18"

With all the issues about delays in 18's i was reading, was trying to figure out if this is a general dayton audio issue with backorders

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post #372 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 01:47 PM
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Scott,

I am new to home DIY; I've been involved in mobile DIY and never run into such droughts.

"Tough it out or go buy something else." That's fabulous advice, thanks so much for that. LOL. Look, I wasn't looking for advice. I'm not whining about the inability of product. I'm not talking about the SI18 or the UXL-18 both of which aren't available either. I'm not even talking about the UM-18 not being available. What I'm talking about principle and simply stating my opinion on it. I've been the GM of 3 different businesses and if at any time I don't have a product for which there is demand (which happens all the time) if I'm not sure when I'll get it back, that's exactly what I tell the potential buyer. If anything I over deliver. If I think it may really take a week I say it could take a month and then they're happy when you have it in 2-3 weeks. Again, it's principle and perhaps because I do business differently as a supplier I have a different set of expectations as a consumer. I just find it ridiculous that anyone every week would add a 1 month extension to the release date of their product for four consecutive weeks and somehow think it's a good practice to continue doing so. I find it laughable. Again, that's my opinion which clearly you and others on this forum don't share with me which is absolutely fine.

Heh. It's funny. You sound exactly like me but how I am with video games. I've gone through a lifetime of countless times some hot new game is announced or teased and oh they promise all these things, put out a very convincing (yet always fake) video of "gameplay". So years and years go by, countless delays and promises. Often the product comes out and is NOTHING like was promised. This has made me incredibly cynical with games. All your thoughts here are completely mirrored by me but with this other market. This is way too common with videogames. DIY audio? Rare. Very rare. Now delays and such? Oh sure. It happens.

We still haven't even got the product. You're upset cuz the time table keeps shifting. I get that and I feel for you all that are waiting. But be mad when the product comes out and it does not deliver on any of the promises of performance. That's worth getting upset about.

Or you know... keep on ... ummm....
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With all the issues about delays in 18's i was reading, was trying to figure out if this is a general dayton audio issue with backorders

No. This is isolated to the 18" Ultimax which has not ever been released yet. The 15" is just probably a new batch yet to come in. Every one here is still waiting for the first release of the 18".

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post #373 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 01:53 PM
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Heh. It's funny. You sound exactly like me but how I am with video games. I've gone through a lifetime of countless times some hot new game is announced or teased and oh they promise all these things, put out a very convincing (yet always fake) video of "gameplay". So years and years go by, countless delays and promises. Often the product comes out and is NOTHING like was promised. This has made me incredibly cynical with games. All your thoughts here are completely mirrored by me but with this other market. This is way too common with videogames. DIY audio? Rare. Very rare. Now delays and such? Oh sure. It happens.

We still haven't even got the product. You're upset cuz the time table keeps shifting. I get that and I feel for you all that are waiting. But be mad when the product comes out and it does not deliver on any of the promises of performance. That's worth getting upset about.

Or you know... keep on ... ummm....
No. This is isolated to the 18" Ultimax which has not ever been released yet. The 15" is just probably a new batch yet to come in. Every one here is still waiting for the first release of the 18".

Ok sirs... Carry on in misery

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post #374 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 02:02 PM
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Ok sirs... Carry on in misery






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post #375 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 02:03 PM
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Brutal - I've got a similar business management background as you, and I think you are spot on with your comments.  The issue here is around the poor management of expectations and the continued incremental push back of delivery dates.  The "glass-half-empty" side of me says they are doing this to keep existing orders from being canceled.  As long as there is a delivery date that's somewhat in the near future, hope remains alive for anyone who's already ordered.   Which means Parts Express gets to hang on to that cash that's already been paid in.  I applaud their efforts to get their QC under control and deliver a quality product, just think the communication's been managed poorly.   Especially the last forum update, which was quickly followed by the date getting pushed back to July on their site. 

On a sort of related note - I've been watching your subwoofer threads closely.  I find myself in a similar position as you.  Not really seeing any good values in the market today, so in a bit of a holding pattern.  Someday. Someday.

Interesting. I look around and I see some really decent stuff out there, What or how do you define a "good value"?

You guys are crazy....
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post #376 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 02:47 PM
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Heh. It's funny. You sound exactly like me but how I am with video games. I've gone through a lifetime of countless times some hot new game is announced or teased and oh they promise all these things, put out a very convincing (yet always fake) video of "gameplay". So years and years go by, countless delays and promises. Often the product comes out and is NOTHING like was promised. This has made me incredibly cynical with games. All your thoughts here are completely mirrored by me but with this other market. This is way too common with videogames.

I used to be like that with games some years ago, and it would be frustrating if a game I was looking forward to kept on getting pushed back. I am definitely not like that now though, there are so many great games out there that I could not possibly play them all. I have bunches of cool looking games in my Steam account that I haven't installed yet, and dozens in my wishlist. They just keep stacking up! Too many great games to choose from. It looks the same way with drivers really, which is why I don't understand the frustration with the Ultimax 18. Perpetually delayed? Who cares, just go grab another driver. A lot of good ones out there. Some might cost a bit more but its better than waiting till July to have great bass.
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post #377 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 02:54 PM
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I used to be like that with games some years ago, and it would be frustrating if a game I was looking forward to kept on getting pushed back. I am definitely not like that now though, there are so many great games out there that I could not possibly play them all. I have bunches of cool looking games in my Steam account that I haven't installed yet, and dozens in my wishlist. They just keep stacking up! Too many great games to choose from. It looks the same way with drivers really, which is why I don't understand the frustration with the Ultimax 18. Perpetually delayed? Who cares, just go grab another driver. A lot of good ones out there. Some might cost a bit more but its better than waiting till July to have great bass.

Yup agreed 100%


Lol with games... I just buy less of them now because I have such a huge backlog thanks to Steam. smile.gif

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post #378 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 02:55 PM
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Just trying to help? confused.gif

 

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I could see the frustration from buyers who do not own subs yet and can't wait to get them. For me I already have a quad of SI18's and am just looking to add to my arsenal. I'm in no hurry to get these drivers as I'm in the process of remodeling my theater anyways. The further out they are the more time I have to get the room completed.
If the specs are even remotely close they look to be very promising and I'm willing to wait for that. If you can't wait look at the IXL's or Dayton HO's. To each their own.
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post #380 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 03:29 PM
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Hey!  How'd you get my photo!!!!!  tongue.gif

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post #381 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 03:53 PM
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Keep in mind that when the purchase is made on PE they don't charge your credit card immediately. They make an authorization to make sure that the money is available but they do not hold the money when the order is placed. They won't take the money until the product ships.
I ordered a quad of these with the $100 off sale and saw the authorization and after a week the authorization expired and I have not been charged. It's not like they are holding the money and making interest money off of our cash.

I know that there was at least one, possibly two people either earlier in this thread or in another active thread in the last few days that said they were charged back in November or December following the order they placed. Even if the current potential July release date holds true on the product, that's still 8 months that their money will have been held up. That's a bit out of line in my opinion.
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post #382 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 03:59 PM
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I agree. I'd like my money back too.

Although I'd be curious if those who have not got a refund were also using the coupon that was available when these first went for pre-order.

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post #383 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 04:09 PM
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Call PE and demand a refund. I wouldn't bother with email.

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post #384 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 04:10 PM
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I agree. I'd like my money back too.

Although I'd be curious if those who have not got a refund were also using the coupon that was available when these first went for pre-order.

Archaea and I were the first two to order four UM's back in November and we both received the coupon pricing.........I'm thinking a hair over $900 for the four. I bailed a month one-half ago and was never charged. That's not the issue..............I had no problems whatsoever canceling my order. PayPal might be another issue which I can't speak to. I don't have a Paypal account nor do I intend to. PayPal wants their 3% whether item was purchased or not. 3% loss on every cancellation must be adding up........
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post #385 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 04:19 PM
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Interesting. I look around and I see some really decent stuff out there, What or how do you define a "good value"?

 

You have to take into account where I'm coming from. Five weeks ago, I didn't even know you could build a sub. I've got a very large room (6,600 ft3) so I believe the conventional wisdom is I should grab 2 15's or 18's. This is a family room, so I need to keep the enclosure size/number of subs in check.  Two is the max.     I can salivate over the setups I see on here, but it's just not functional in my life.

 

I caught the tail end of the SI HT 18 frenzy, but didn't know enough to where I was comfortable pulling the trigger on them before they ran out. After that we have the Dayton HO, which isn't on sale. I'm not interested in a higher priced subwoofer than that, which pretty much rules out a lot of the higher end offerings.  I see the infinity 12"' driver currently being touted as the bang for the buck driver.  I had a horrible experience with some Infinity speakers, so not going with that brand for personal reasons. 

 

I'm also a guy who only buys this sort of stuff on clearance or a decent sale.  So I'm going to sit back and wait for the next Parts Express sale (Memorial Day hopefully), the SI HT coming back (maybe), or something like that.  The 15" SI still might be a consideration for me, but the 4ohm DVC presents some interesting amp matchups.

 

So my definition of value = solid speaker + on sale.   It will come to me, I just need to wait.  In the meantime, I'm going to keep reading and practicing modeling in WInISD. 


That all said, I'm a complete newbie here so I'd value any alternative perspectives you might have.

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post #386 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 04:24 PM
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Interesting. I look around and I see some really decent stuff out there, What or how do you define a "good value"?

Well, I can't answer for G-Money but I will weigh in my thoughts on the subject.

A "good value" I think to most simply means that they feel comfortable that they're getting the best performance they can out of a product at that given price point. While most people probably agree with this definition, the variables that go into the definition are different for everyone... the two most important in my view are how the individual defines "performance" and how they quantify the diminishing returns in jumping from one product priced at X compared to the next "best" product at X + $100 for example. For some, that $100 is well worth the added performance. For others, the $100 may be a complete waste in their opinion.

For me, I've almost always been a middle ground kind of guy erring on the side of upper-middle in terms of product lines. I would never buy a base model car for example, but also would never pay extra for a "special" or "limited" edition that may have a little more fluff or a couple of extra options. I'm more of buying the mid-top model, but without all of the extra options. To me they are unnecessary; the returns are too diminished for my dollar spent at that point. I can completely understand that there are those out there however that draw their line at the base model. To them they feel it's a "good value" and that spending a little more for a mid-model is pointless. I also completely understand those that buy the absolute top model with all the bells and whistles they can throw their money at, because to them the additional money spent is marginal and represents a "good value" - different views for different consumers.

With respect to a subwoofer and DIY, I feel I'm sort of the same way. I see drivers like the SI18 and the Dayton HO more or less as the entry-level drivers for decent DIY subs. Yes I know there are cheaper drivers out there, but in terms of this forum and "good value" as most on here define it I think those two are the most commonly used as the entry level contenders around here... Basically $175-$250 drivers. The top of the line stuff to me probably ranges from about the UXL-18 to the LMS Ultra; basically the $500-$900 range. Some may argue the UXL-18 is mid-level, others may say since its performance is very close to that of the LMS Ultra it can be put in that upper category so that's where I sort of view it. To me there's a pretty big gap between those two areas. From what I've read on this forum there really isn't all too much available in between which is why I more or less decided on the UXL-18's, especially a few days ago when I thought the price dropped about 20% on them.

I think all of the options I mentioned above are probably considered a "good value" by most at their given price point since they are very commonly used on this forum. For me like with my car example, I'm willing to try and shoot somewhere for the middle ground. It seems though in such a small niche market like DIY Subs there aren't all too many middle ground options. It's either go big or go for the more basic stuff. Which then brings me to sales and or offers/discounts. Let's face it, in the modern consumer market everyone likes to feel like they got a good deal. That "feel," the intangible part of any decent sized purchase is something most individuals like to experience. For me, I'm willing to hold out in order to experience that. Like when I heard about the UXL-18 a few days ago dropping to $440/driver I had my card in hand ready to pull the trigger. When I realized the price reduction was in fact a mistake, I held back from ordering. While I'm sure the regular price on the UXL-18 indeed represents a "good value" to most, it's slightly more than I'd like to spend (not able to spend, just would like to spend) on a driver.

The perfect product for me I suppose is one that really doesn't exist... that would be a driver priced at say $375 that performs in between that of a SI18/Dayton HO and a UXL-18. In the meantime I'll continue to read great information contained in the threads on this forum until something either comes along (such as a new product or another UXL-18 deal) or I "settle" for one of the lesser priced drivers or "bite the bullet" and pay the regular price for the UXL-18's. No matter what my decision ultimately is, I'm sure I'll be satisfied as it will easily best by current commercial sub.
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post #387 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 04:45 PM
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BBS, it does sound like you truly need the 18" Ultimax. And I don't blame you! biggrin.gif

I mean... I think we are all excited to see this come out.


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post #388 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Money1572 View Post

You have to take into account where I'm coming from. Five weeks ago, I didn't even know you could build a sub. I've got a very large room (6,600 ft3) so I believe the conventional wisdom is I should grab 2 15's or 18's. This is a family room, so I need to keep the enclosure size/number of subs in check.  Two is the max.     I can salivate over the setups I see on here, but it's just not functional in my life.

I caught the tail end of the SI HT 18 frenzy, but didn't know enough to where I was comfortable pulling the trigger on them before they ran out. After that we have the Dayton HO, which isn't on sale. I'm not interested in a higher priced subwoofer than that, which pretty much rules out a lot of the higher end offerings.  I see the infinity 12"' driver currently being touted as the bang for the buck driver.  I had a horrible experience with some Infinity speakers, so not going with that brand for personal reasons. 

I'm also a guy who only buys this sort of stuff on clearance or a decent sale.  So I'm going to sit back and wait for the next Parts Express sale (Memorial Day hopefully), the SI HT coming back (maybe), or something like that.  The 15" SI still might be a consideration for me, but the 4ohm DVC presents some interesting amp matchups.

So my definition of value = solid speaker + on sale.   It will come to me, I just need to wait.  In the meantime, I'm going to keep reading and practicing modeling in WInISD. 


That all said, I'm a complete newbie here so I'd value any alternative perspectives you might have.

I see. Given the fact that I live in a city where people would drive from one end of the city to another just to save 50 cents (it's true, no lie) I can understand. Everyone loves a deal, and folks jump on them when they come up. Still, there are good value-add products out there and well worth getting whether they are on sale or not. Then, there are some that are simply overpriced because they know they can get away with it.

You guys are crazy....
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post #389 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

BBS, it does sound like you truly need the 18" Ultimax. And I don't blame you! biggrin.gif

I mean... I think we are all excited to see this come out.


That driver was my original consideration as it did seem to be more toward the range I was looking at. Still, I'd comfortably pay another $100 over the price of the Ultimax 18 for a driver that performed on par with it or a tad better. More than $375 or so per driver (I'm in the market for a pair) just seems a bit of a stretch for me as it's just an average sized living room. The "discounted" price of the UXL-18 which worked out to be about $405 USD, shipped looked to be a fantastic deal and value right that amount - too bad its pricing was a mistake.

I will continue to enjoy my aging SVS sub in the meantime until the right opportunity presents itself. No harm in that.
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post #390 of 1051 Old 04-13-2014, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mrogowski View Post

I see. Given the fact that I live in a city where people would drive from one end of the city to another just to save 50 cents (it's true, no lie) I can understand. Everyone loves a deal, and folks jump on them when they come up. Still, there are good value-add products out there and well worth getting whether they are on sale or not. Then, there are some that are simply overpriced because they know they can get away with it.

I think the "everyone loves a deal" portion of what you said is the most relevant especially in today's society. It really does drive consumer spending.

You could take a product and increase the price by 5% for 11 out of 12 months of the year and likely lose little to no sales as a result, and then for the final month of the year (spread it out into four 1-week segments, say once per quarter) you offer a 20% discount off the regular price. Overall sales units and revenue would certainly be greater in the end with relatively equal profit, except you have a larger portion of the public that feels they got a great deal which helps them talk up the product and drum up more residual sales. The four 1-week sales could be targeted around your historically slowest sales volume times to aid in smoothing out the sales peaks and valleys of the year. The 20% discount allows 2 new types of buyers to acquire your product. One, those that simply can't afford it at the higher price, and Two those that can afford it at the higher price but simply aren't willing to spend that price for that product. Either way the discount allows the product to get into the hands of those that it otherwise wouldn't have which let's them expose it to people that otherwise would never be exposed to it (such as friends coming over to demo the product).

If it didn't make financial sense to run sales and discounts in the long run, certainly you wouldn't see sales and discounts at nearly every store you walk into or site you land on these days.
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