4x SI 18 D4s in 16cuft sonos tuned to 16hz - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 64 Old 11-17-2013, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Still working on the build name. I'm thinking maybe the Four Horsemen. Each enclosure will be a 24" sonotube around 6.5' tall, so they'll certainly be imposing. Anyway, the title gives the important details.

They'll stand behind an acoustically transparent screen in a room a little over 6000cuft.

I already have the sub drivers and a CV-5000 amp. I plan to get a Balanced MiniDSP for high pass and EQ duties.

Configuring the amp for 4 ohms will give each driver 900 watts. I've modeled it as such with a high pass at 13.5hz.


Just one hits 117dB at 20hz and 112dB at 15hz. Add 10-12dB for four subwoofers and... biggrin.gif


Even with 900 watts the HP should keep them out of excursion.


...And port velocity looks decent.

Being new to WinISD, have I missed anything? Does everything look right?

Thanks.

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post #2 of 64 Old 11-20-2013, 05:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I've got the sonotube and MDF. Two 12' long 24" diameter tubes sticking out of the back of a truck makes it look like some kind of jet propulsion system. tongue.gif


And now they're four 6' lengths. That'll change once again when I get all the numbers figured out. They're just easier to handle this way.


I already had a Jasper circle jig from a project years ago, but it wasn't going to work for 24" and larger cuts so I had to make my own. Some scrap plywood seemed to do the job.


So now I have twelve 24" MDF pieces, twelve 25 1/2" pieces, and four 24" plywood pieces. Neither the router or jig are of the highest quality so I've got some cleanup work to do on the pieces that will be exposed. The plywood will glue to the MDF inside the bottom of the tube to give a little more grab to the T-nuts I plan to use.


Anyway, it's coming along. Still hoping someone can verify my numbers. Hint, hint.
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post #3 of 64 Old 11-21-2013, 07:21 AM
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Coming along nicely! smile.gif

It would be nice to live in the US - all that space to do things, as opposed to our tiny boxes with no workshop space over here in the UK!
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post #4 of 64 Old 11-21-2013, 01:22 PM
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Those will be nice:D

I have two SI 18 D4s in sonotubes and they are outstanding. Mine are in 18cuft each and are tuned to 11hz with no HPF. It's good to see a few more sonotube builds around.

How big is your room?

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post #5 of 64 Old 11-21-2013, 01:34 PM
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If you don't mind me asking, how much was each 12'x24" sonotube?



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post #6 of 64 Old 11-21-2013, 01:37 PM
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My 12'x24" sonotube was about $115.00 last February. I too would be interested to know how much the OP paid for his.

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post #7 of 64 Old 11-21-2013, 04:02 PM
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that truck pic killed me. :-)

looks like something for a mad spl competition...or a darwin award. :-)

all the numbers look right, but there is still a little question about winisd port lengths. we were using slot port on the martysub and confirmed that winisd overshoots port length significantly. and when you drop a few pillows in there to kill resonances that might lower tuning further. so if you build according to winisd model and then stuff with some pillows, my guess is that you come in ~2hz under your target, but that is just guesstimate.

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post #8 of 64 Old 11-21-2013, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

If you don't mind me asking, how much was each 12'x24" sonotube?

I paid $64 each for the 12'x24" sonos. I was going to pay twice as much at a local building supply store until I checked the Menards website. They have them normally for $72, but I got them during the 11% off sale. It was free shipping to the store down the road from my house. I was quite pleased.

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post #9 of 64 Old 11-21-2013, 06:03 PM
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This is good, another sono build! It appears sono is cheaper than what it used to be?? subscribed cool.gif
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Mine are in 18cuft each and are tuned to 11hz with no HPF

I also never had a need with many different subs.

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post #10 of 64 Old 11-21-2013, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by swtfman View Post

Those will be nice:D

I have two SI 18 D4s in sonotubes and they are outstanding. Mine are in 18cuft each and are tuned to 11hz with no HPF. It's good to see a few more sonotube builds around.

How big is your room?

18cuft tuned to 11hz... nice. No HPF, huh? I just ran that quick and it looks like it should go into excursion at about 10hz, at least with 600W. Have you ever had issues with that?

And my room will be a little over 6000cuft. I say will be because I'm still framing. I probably shouldn't have started the sub build, but I've had the drivers sitting around for months and wanted to start routing the MDF before it got too cold out. Speaking of that, I checked the MDF in the sono tonight, and I cut the plugs a bit too big. I eyeballed it quick after cutting the first one and thought it would just need a bit of a roundover. Sadly that's not the case. Looks like a bit more routing. rolleyes.gif

Kevin

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post #11 of 64 Old 11-21-2013, 06:49 PM
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I haven't had any problems so far. There's not really anything to worry about below 11 hz in my experience.

Looking forward to the rest of your build

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post #12 of 64 Old 11-21-2013, 07:08 PM
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I eyeballed it quick after cutting the first one and thought it would just need a bit of a roundover. Sadly that's not the case. Looks like a bit more routing. rolleyes.gif

Well! better to big rather than to small. smile.gif This might sound weird, but back in the day we used to shoot for having to tap the caps in so no need for glue. I only blew a cap once, but that was because I didn’t seat it properly. We’re talking tight!

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post #13 of 64 Old 11-21-2013, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

that truck pic killed me. :-)

looks like something for a mad spl competition...or a darwin award. :-)

all the numbers look right, but there is still a little question about winisd port lengths. we were using slot port on the martysub and confirmed that winisd overshoots port length significantly. and when you drop a few pillows in there to kill resonances that might lower tuning further. so if you build according to winisd model and then stuff with some pillows, my guess is that you come in ~2hz under your target, but that is just guesstimate.

Funny; I thought the same thing about the Darwin Awards.

LTD, thanks for chiming in. I was looking at the Martysub when I started playing with all this modeling. The sonos just seemed much more manageable.

I was curious about the port length also because it was different than what Sonosub Calculator came up with, but I know that takes port flaring into account. I didn't know WinISD was that far off on tuning, and I hadn't even thought about stuffing lowering it. Any suggestions?

Kevin

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post #14 of 64 Old 11-21-2013, 08:23 PM
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tough to know because data is sparse. if going with a top cover with about 4-6" or so of spacing over an 8" diameter port, i'd probably guess 20% or so off the winisd port length. then drop it another hz or so with the pillows. three in the middle should kill the resonance. as for specific guidance, it kind of depends on which side do you want to risk it on (tuning too high or too low).

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post #15 of 64 Old 11-21-2013, 08:26 PM
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I'm not sure if pillows actually reduce the tuning frequency or just reduce the contribution of the port and make it seem like a little reduced tuning.

josh did some excellent work here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=79

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post #16 of 64 Old 11-21-2013, 08:40 PM
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If you are looking for the utmost in uncolored and well-damped sound or if you intend to use the system extra high in frequency up into the lower midrange, it is recommended. If you are trying to be as absolutely loud and efficient as possible, then leave it out.

In general, there is probably a sweet spot for most systems where the system's major response issues are cleaned up and damped, but further addition of material will only serve to further decrease efficiency. Unfortunately, finding this sweet spot probably involves trial and error or other testing.

That is good work! I now understand you suggesting in the middle as apposed to my past back and bottom suggestion.

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post #17 of 64 Old 11-22-2013, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

if going with a top cover with about 4-6" or so of spacing over an 8" diameter port, i'd probably guess 20% or so off the winisd port length

I actually hadn't planned on a top cover over the port. Let's just hope the cats don't decide to hop up and check it out. If I did go with a top cover 8" above the port, theoretically there'd be no problems, right?

So with its default .732 end correction on a 8" port WinISD says to go 27.08" long for 16hz tuning. Oddly, when I change it to .75 end correction for a typical roundover bit, it changes to 32.94", which seems like a pretty drastic change. Actually, it looks like it goes to 32.94" no matter what I change end correction to.

Sonosub Calculator says to 27 9/16". I may just go with that, and if it lowers tuning a bit with stuffing, so be it. I hadn't really thought about stuffing, but I could play around with it. How do you even get three pillows to stay in the middle (height-wise I'm guessing you're talking about) of a sonotube?

Kevin

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post #18 of 64 Old 11-22-2013, 05:10 AM
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"I actually hadn't planned on a top cover over the port. Let's just hope the cats don't decide to hop up and check it out. If I did go with a top cover 8" above the port, theoretically there'd be no problems, right?"

no problem with that.

stuffing
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/ported-subwoofer-build-projects/18349-tc-1000-sonosubs.html#post164576

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post #19 of 64 Old 12-01-2013, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I was out of town last week, but I got back to the project this weekend.


The driver fits!


And all the routing is complete.

I have to say, doing all of that for four subs took quite a bit of time, but I'm expecting it'll be worth it.

I still have to file off a bit from all of the pieces that got a double roundover, and then there's paint, wiring, stuffing, mounting, but it's coming along.

Back to the stuffing idea, what about lining the tube and outside of the port with batting or insulation?

Kevin

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post #20 of 64 Old 12-02-2013, 10:17 AM
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Coming along nicely! smile.gif

I think I've seen carpet underlay stuck to the inside, or that pointy foam stuff?
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post #21 of 64 Old 12-02-2013, 07:01 PM
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I just used eggcrate foam to line the interior of mine. They had a bad ringing/internal standing wave before adding the lining.

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post #22 of 64 Old 12-03-2013, 03:52 AM
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Back to the stuffing idea, what about lining the tube and outside of the port with batting or insulation?

I have used insulation in the past with no ill affects. Some shy away from insulation and others gravitate towards it on account of cost, ease of use and effectiveness.. I have used other methods mentioned also except for the pillow option that I find attractive if not over done.

Bet you're glad to get the routing out of the way wink.gif

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post #23 of 64 Old 12-03-2013, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Bet you're glad to get the routing out of the way wink.gif

I am VERY glad to get the routing out of the way. Even though I already owned all the tools I don't know how many times I thought "I should have just called a cabinet shop about cutting these."

I really should be focusing on finishing the basement (which I haven't touched in 2 weeks), but I wanted to get the routing done while the weather was still decent out.

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but I wanted to get the routing done while the weather was still decent out.

OOO! is that a good idea! I used to have to close my garage door so the MDF dust would not drift back in. If it went to the floor like other shavings it would be no issue as you know, but it settles on everything. My wife used to get so mad at me, I did too considering I had to vacuum everything off. rolleyes.gif

So how do your caps fit?.. are you going the extra tight fit, or are you going to glue?

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post #25 of 64 Old 12-03-2013, 06:55 AM
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tough to know because data is sparse. if going with a top cover with about 4-6" or so of spacing over an 8" diameter port, i'd probably guess 20% or so off the winisd port length. then drop it another hz or so with the pillows. three in the middle should kill the resonance.

qhWv

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post #26 of 64 Old 12-03-2013, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

So if you build according to winisd model and then stuff with some pillows, my guess is that you come in ~2hz under your target, but that is just guesstimate.
Seems about right, and also about perfect. 16hz is good but 14hz gives a tiny bit more extension and a small increase in protection, but with an HPF, it's a moot point.

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post #27 of 64 Old 12-03-2013, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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OOO! is that a good idea! I used to have to close my garage door so the MDF dust would not drift back in. If it went to the floor like other shavings it would be no issue as you know, but it settles on everything. My wife used to get so mad at me, I did too considering I had to vacuum everything off. rolleyes.gif

So how do your caps fit?.. are you going the extra tight fit, or are you going to glue?

You are definitely correct about MDF dust. That stuff is crazy! I had some drift in the garage door and get on my wife's car when she'd just washed it that morning. Not a happy camper.

As for the caps, they're pretty tight, but I'm going to need the glue. Not a problem, though; I planned on that from the beginning.

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16hz is good but 14hz gives a tiny bit more extension and a small increase in protection, but with an HPF, it's a moot point.

Yeah, I don't think I'm too concerned either way at this point. I think I'll build it to spec for 16hz, and then if it ends up a bit lower with stuffing/lining, so be it. I wouldn't know how to measure that anyway. tongue.gif

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post #28 of 64 Old 12-12-2013, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Progress is being made. I'm actually mostly done at this point.

For anyone curious about how to get a straight line on sonotube.


Clamps, clamps, clamps...


T-nuts for mounting the driver.


Port glued and stapled into place.



There are a few things left to do. First thing, back to the stuffing. I really don't want to add a lot, just enough to keep down resonances. I went to Hobby Lobby to look for polyester batting, but the thickest they have is 1/4". Then I thought I'd check out the recycled cotton wall insulation, planning to cut the 3-1/2" thickness in half. One bag wasn't quite going to do the job, so it would have ended up costing something like $100. No thanks. Maybe I'm being a bit paranoid, but I'm not too sure I like the idea of using the fiberglass stuff.

So... back to the pillow idea. Do you think if I stapled pillows to the MDF top plate they'd stay? I can't really add anything structurally to hold the pillows up there now. Assuming this would work, how many would you recommend? I know it's a big enclosure, but I want to affect tuning and efficiency as little as possible. Thoughts?

Second, I still need to get binding posts. I was thinking something like this, but I think the "knurled shaft" may be too long for the thickness of the sonotube. I'd mount them in the bottom plate, but then they're not long enough.


These look like they'd work, but I'd prefer the nickel finish.

Kevin

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post #29 of 64 Old 12-12-2013, 03:48 PM
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So... back to the pillow idea. Do you think if I stapled pillows to the MDF top plate they'd stay? I can't really add anything structurally to hold the pillows up there now. Assuming this would work, how many would you recommend? I know it's a big enclosure, but I want to affect tuning and efficiency as little as possible. Thoughts?

That's what some are doing over at the Shack. I forget the count though. Being that large I would say around 3ish?? I'll check latter for you though when I get home. Looking good!

EDIT> 4-6" thick.
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post #30 of 64 Old 12-13-2013, 04:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Got it; four 6" pillows per enclosure. I'll have to see where I can find them cheapest this weekend.

Kevin

What I'm planning for an
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