AVS Forum banner

SI 24z build....8 of em'

35K views 678 replies 81 participants last post by  Bassment 
#1 ·
Update 3/3/14...so after many issues in the home construction I am happy to say we are reaching the end and HT build can get started. Long story short, the contractor cost me what the IB space would have cost to construct physically about 2times over. Silver lining....with so many options for good diy subs these days, you can't lose. I have considered options carefully and talked with a few folks that I trust about it.....my 8 SI 24z will be here in a few weeks



That's the starting point for the new project, where if you jump to page 12, I'd love thoughts on implementations.


Any and all comments welcome and as always, thanks to all!
 
See less See more
1
#502 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/480#post_24541920


group delay is nonsense anywhere it matters..

Well I did say I didn't know what it was. Any guesses why they sound different beyond just the difference in output. I assume you eq to a flat or house response, so any perceived difference in sound comes from something other than FR. Unless you took at extra 15db and left it in.
 
#503 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/500_100#post_24541959


Well I did say I didn't know what it was. Any guesses why they sound different beyond just the difference in output. I assume you eq to a flat or house response, so any perceived difference in sound comes from something other than FR. Unless you took at extra 15db and left it in.

Not really any idea, some say its spl vs pvl, It might be efficiency related, I have no idea really. It's just obviously there even when EQ'd the same and level matched. The only thing different electronics wise is there's a 13hz crossover instead of an 11hz crossover.


I was just ruling out group delay, since that I can measure.
 
#504 ·
I am with not, there is a difference between alignments, level/fr matched.


As for me, its either a FLH or its a compromise. Nothing puts a smile on my face like a good FLH so I fully understand what not is saying and how ported does that for him. For whatever reasons I have never been impressed with sealed, no matter how many you put in the room (or car). In the car it was loud and had pressure but it just wasn't the same as the ported cabs in there. The whole feeling just changed. I don't care what the graph or meter says, I feel the difference



Why does this occur?


I'd love to know if someone has the answer.
 
#505 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/400_100#post_24541655


I say no, but in reality I am limited in some areas...I want to work around perfect lcr placement. In addition to that, I don't want air movement pointing directly at the screen and so close it moves the screen and takes away from the video aspect. I can build the cabinets to accomodate most places, but don't want any enclosures out in the room...looking for as a clean of an install as possible on that front. heck I even thought about grabbing a bunch of 18s to put in the columns in case I needed it for nearfield subs or mode smoothing.

Well, we're officially bringing a horse trailer and Nathan mentioned that the trailer would be fine with a 4-6000lb load...so if you are so inclined to pick up some of the SI 18's, we have the room to get them back up to my place... Not sure how you are planning on getting all of this gear back to CT!


Man, might need a bit of help with gas fellas... I already only get like 12mpg. Four grown men and a few tons of gear seems like it might drop us down to like 4mpg...lol.



Or we could go all out and rent a Party RV to make the trip down to Beast's...

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/popalock85/media/PartyRV_zpsbb2bdb8d.jpg.html
 
#506 ·
One thing is for sure, we're shaped by our individual paths taken to this point. That said, none of us have likely experienced ample comparative sample of variety in anything resembling a controlled environment.


Remember there's also the psycho-acoustic effect that seems to satiate one's urge to up the house curve and play the subs hot ... ie., with many, the extra extension down well into the single digits, seems to subjectively alleviate the need for higher levels of LF.


Clearly, not all (notnyt), however it certainly seems to sate the desire for level. I know MK's experience is consistent with this, as his most recent switch to the 8-18"s in quasi-IB, resulted in deeper extension and less desire for overly hot settings.


There is something to the differences .. FLH, sealed, vented, Paul Klipsch recognized this long ago, good white paper to the effect, I'll try to find it and link it.


There's also masking that can occur, this is significant too, additionally we do not hear identically one another ... especially at the extremes.


There's much at play.
 
#507 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/480#post_24542112


Paul Klipsch recognized this long ago, good white paper to the effect, I'll try to find it and link it.

I'd like to read that.


I personally think the answer lies in the same vein as, why do big high sensitive woofers sound so "effortless" and "powerful". Because they're no working as hard to do it. The little woofer sounds "tight" and "snappy" cause it's banging away like mad to do the same things. It's even impressive. Both are making the same SPL, and same FR, but sound different because of different excursions. But I'm just guessing. And my example is more exaggerated.
 
#508 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/480#post_24541956


Yeah the 8x24 definitely has an spl advantage in the higher frequency ranges by about 2-3db compared to the sealed setup, but compared to the ported setup, it won't be as loud or as efficient down low by a large margin. I also gained 2-3db in the upper frequencies as well going sealed.

Your 8 ported LMSs are louder/model louder than 8 sealed 24s (20-40hz range) when using xmax figures and larger than the 10cuft sealed enclosures? I wouldn't have thought that but do agree with ported having a more intensive sound in any scenario over sealed.


I've yet to hear an IB or FLH but hope to upgrade from sealed in the near future.
 
#509 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/500_100#post_24542381


Your 8 ported LMSs are louder/model louder than 8 sealed 24s (20-40hz range) when using xmax figures and larger than the 10cuft sealed enclosures? I wouldn't have thought that but do agree with ported having a more intensive sound in any scenario over sealed.


I've yet to hear an IB or FLH but hope to upgrade from sealed in the near future.

IB's sound closest to sealed, FLH is nice.


The 24s are basically double the SD of the LMS with less power handling. sealed vs sealed they win, sealed vs ported, it's a different game. You give up massive output going sealed.
 
#510 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/480_60#post_24542392


IB's sound closest to sealed, FLH is nice.


The 24s are basically double the SD of the LMS with less power handling. sealed vs sealed they win, sealed vs ported, it's a different game. You give up massive output going sealed.

Some people aren't as needy as you here.....Wait a minute, I am....Haha, and too many others. Proud to be part of the 1%'ers. Woot Woot! I will say the simple ported IB I added to the system gave something like 12dB on the bottom end which isn't too shabby
 
#511 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/480#post_24542010


Well, we're officially bringing a horse trailer and Nathan mentioned that the trailer would be fine with a 4-6000lb load...so if you are so inclined to pick up some of the SI 18's, we have the room to get them back up to my place... Not sure how you are planning on getting all of this gear back to CT!


Man, might need a bit of help with gas fellas... I already only get like 12mpg. Four grown men and a few tons of gear seems like it might drop us down to like 4mpg...lol.



Or we could go all out and rent a Party RV to make the trip down to Beast's...

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/popalock85/media/PartyRV_zpsbb2bdb8d.jpg.html

RV FTW!!! Why have you not reserved it and posted a screen shot of the confirmation yet?!?!?!
 
#512 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/480#post_24542487


Some people aren't as needy as you here.....Wait a minute, I am....Haha, and too many others. Proud to be part of the 1%'ers. Woot Woot! I will say the simple ported IB I added to the system gave something like 12dB on the bottom end which isn't too shabby

Beast, do you have the graphs and explanations of the ports in the IB all grouped together in a post or two for quick reference reading? I remember krypto experimenting continuously with ports and his IBs.
 
#513 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/480#post_24542392


IB's sound closest to sealed, FLH is nice.


The 24s are basically double the SD of the LMS with less power handling. sealed vs sealed they win, sealed vs ported, it's a different game. You give up massive output going sealed.

FLH, nice?


Yeah double SD is big deal and power rating are extremely low from what I see so that's why I asked if modeled the 8 24s vs 8lms since the 24s can obviously handle more power in larger enclosures to boot so figured they would model higher than your slot ported enclosures. Maybe they don't buy just by looking at xmax and modeling to optimal spl one would think they would be capable of bettering even the ported LMS setup.
 
#514 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/500_100#post_24543124


FLH, nice?


Yeah double SD is big deal and power rating are extremely low from what I see so that's why I asked if modeled the 8 24s vs 8lms since the 24s can obviously handle more power in larger enclosures to boot so figured they would model higher than your slot ported enclosures. Maybe they don't buy just by looking at xmax and modeling to optimal spl one would think they would be capable of bettering even the ported LMS setup.

You're dreaming if you think double sd is going to make up 12dbspl. It's not even close. I'll model it for you.
 
#515 ·
Pretty much as I described. 2 LMS ported in green as I built, 2 SI24s in blue 20 cubes, max output. I saw an even larger gain than winisd predicted over sealed as well when I went ported by about 3db. The LMS specs were taken from Ricci's measurements, SI 24 taken from SI's posted data.

 
#516 ·
"Not really any idea, some say its spl vs pvl, It might be efficiency related, I have no idea really. It's just obviously there even when EQ'd the same and level matched. The only thing different electronics wise is there's a 13hz crossover instead of an 11hz crossover."


might be that weird sound 'intensity' factor that came up a while back.


recall, across a range of frequencies, both the driver and the ports are contributing, so in some sense sd is increased vs sealed, though that alone doesn't seem substantial enough.


in not's case, the ports are like 2 more line arrays of subs, but also operating on some sort of velocity principle (which as noah pointed out operates sort of like a one-way air pump at a distance).


---


iirc, one problem with corner placement is that in a rectangular room the modal cancellations will form a # as viewed from top down. any seats on a line, or really bad, an intersection may experience problems/suckouts and I'm guessing that several seats will fall on such lines. placement on the 1/4 distance positions behind the screen will have the opposite effect and will smooth modes across seats in a row, then eq can be used along with absorption on the rear wall if no subs will be placed there. the massive ported subs should have sufficient spl without relying on modal resonances for boost. anyway, just something to consider...
 
#517 ·
"I saw an even larger gain than winisd predicted over sealed as well when I went ported by about 3db."


note the power limitation vs the excursion limitation around tuning between the two cabs. might be why you got a little more, might not be?
 
#518 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/510#post_24543162


Pretty much as I described. 2 LMS ported in green as I built, 2 SI24s in blue 20 cubes, max output. I saw an even larger gain than winisd predicted over sealed as well when I went ported by about 3db. The LMS specs were taken from Ricci's measurements, SI 24 taken from SI's posted data.


I don't know.


To me I see the sealed model has the obvious advantage across the whole bandwidth where as the ported LMSU just has more but in a very narrow (but fun!) bandwidth.



I think the beauty of each alignment is in the eye of the beholder.
 
#519 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/510#post_24543410


I don't know.


To me I see the sealed model has the obvious advantage across the whole bandwidth where as the ported LMSU just has more but in a very narrow (but fun!) bandwidth.



I think the beauty of each alignment is in the eye of the beholder.

The ported has the advantage in the area that's more difficult to reproduce. I have excess head room above that range, it's that area where the trouble comes in with high excursion. I think there's also more gain there in reality than the model
 
#520 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/510#post_24543448


The ported has the advantage in the area that's more difficult to reproduce. I have excess head room above that range, it's that area where the trouble comes in with high excursion. I think there's also more gain there in reality than the model

Just making sure you were still awake.
 
#521 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/510#post_24543410


I don't know.


To me I see the sealed model has the obvious advantage across the whole bandwidth where as the ported LMSU just has more but in a very narrow (but fun!) bandwidth.



I think the beauty of each alignment is in the eye of the beholder.

I think this is the same way I see it....the other thing to keep in mind, which some will say should not be taken consideration because the published specs are the published specs, is that xmech on the 24s is close to double the xmax and the thermal limits lie somewhere beyond double the rated power handling. 3000w isn't unreasonable for the 24 in any case.


I agree with Nyt's sentiment about the difference in the effect of the alignments...problem is I have decided which appeals to me yet, but I think it will be sealed, after all, that's why I bought 8 of them
 
#523 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/510#post_24543410


I don't know.


To me I see the sealed model has the obvious advantage across the whole bandwidth where as the ported LMSU just has more but in a very narrow (but fun!) bandwidth.



I think the beauty of each alignment is in the eye of the beholder.
When you model in room gain, sealed may look flat out to 10hz, meanwhile ported will have a large rise in response at the bottom, which may or may not be desirable.
 
#524 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/510#post_24543448


The ported has the advantage in the area that's more difficult to reproduce. I have excess head room above that range, it's that area where the trouble comes in with high excursion. I think there's also more gain there in reality than the model

Man, c'mon. We have to wade through this old debate again?


What advantage do you need across a one octave slice of BW with an 8 x 24" driver system that warrants 4 times the real estate?



You had excess head room before you increased box volume from 10 cubes to 40 cubes.


If you have difficulty in reproducing 20 Hz with 70L of displacement driven by 56KW peak power then state your new standard for reproduction as a disclaimer. These 20dB hot, +10dBRL threads used to be a bit amusing but they really are just getting silly.
 
#525 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass  /t/1501074/si-24z-build-8-of-em/510#post_24544081


Man, c'mon. We have to wade through this old debate again?


What advantage do you need across a one octave slice of BW with an 8 x 24" driver system that warrants 4 times the real estate?



You had excess head room before you increased box volume from 10 cubes to 40 cubes.


If you have difficulty in reproducing 20 Hz with 70L of displacement driven by 56KW peak power then state your new standard for reproduction as a disclaimer. These 20dB hot, +10dBRL threads used to be a bit amusing but they really are just getting silly.
 
#526 ·
I have to side with Bosso a bit here. With 8 24's; it doesn't really matter what you put them in. Unless your theater room is a football stadium I think you'll have, ummm, sufficient output across the spectrum.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top