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post #631 of 679 Old 04-03-2014, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by saabracer23 View Post

How are you liking your cabinet? I'm thinking I'm going to clone yours for my ultimax 18s.

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere so sorry if it's been said, but the 24" is a cool thousand now. Eeeek

Dan

Dan, I absolutely love my subs and for my situation the cabinets are the perfect size. I would definitely recommend building something similar to mine with the UM18's you're getting. smile.gif
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post #632 of 679 Old 04-03-2014, 10:16 AM
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"Yep...I have a strong feeling that it's going to easily establish itself as new $1k king..."

if you get a chance, it would make for an interesting comparo against beast's 2242's for the 50hz and up region. and if something like this happens, be sure to EQ them for identical response and also use same room placement. those two drivers are about as opposite as there are, so this would help answer the long standing question of whether "bass is bass" or if there is more to it.

Convenient as well, I built out the box for the 24 to match the dimensions almost identically of the two 2242's, so you know exactly where it is going to sit smile.gif

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post #633 of 679 Old 04-03-2014, 03:49 PM
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Awesome job Beast. I am very curious of that comparo also. I have always loved the JBL's so I am very interested in hearing what you think.


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post #634 of 679 Old 04-03-2014, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Dan, I absolutely love my subs and for my situation the cabinets are the perfect size. I would definitely recommend building something similar to mine with the UM18's you're getting. smile.gif

Cool!!!!

Thanks
Dan
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post #635 of 679 Old 04-03-2014, 06:17 PM
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Dan, I absolutely love my subs and for my situation the cabinets are the perfect size. I would definitely recommend building something similar to mine with the UM18's you're getting. smile.gif

 

 

 

 

 

Seems fitting......................:D


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post #636 of 679 Old 04-03-2014, 08:02 PM
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Seems fitting......................biggrin.gif

???

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post #637 of 679 Old 04-03-2014, 08:40 PM
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???

Dan

I believe that was probably in reference to the UM18-22's smile.gif
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post #638 of 679 Old 04-03-2014, 08:53 PM
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I believe that was probably in reference to the UM18-22's smile.gif

Now who's plugging elephant sized ported cabs? wink.gif

biggrin.gif

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post #639 of 679 Old 04-03-2014, 09:00 PM
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I believe that was probably in reference to the UM18-22's smile.gif

Sorry still don't get it. As the ultimax is an elephant in the room?

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post #640 of 679 Old 04-03-2014, 09:04 PM
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Ported cabs for 18's are elephants or hippo's in general.... They need some space and a LOT of it to get a low tune....

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #641 of 679 Old 04-03-2014, 09:48 PM
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"Convenient as well, I built out the box for the 24 to match the dimensions almost identically of the two 2242's, so you know exactly where it is going to sit"

sweet deal. just make sure they are eq'd the same or you'll never hear the end of it. :-)

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post #642 of 679 Old 04-04-2014, 06:40 AM
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Trust me, I know.... Now, how closely are you going to be able to eq a ULF monster to a pair of HE ported JBL's tuned to 30hz? That'll be tough.... Just stick the same 30hz HPF on them and see what happens I guess.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #643 of 679 Old 04-04-2014, 01:58 PM
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the jbl cabs have a native response that is somewhere in between a butterworth 3rd and 4th order rolloff, so with a protective high pass of 2nd order, that gives a net of 5-6.

so after adding the same 2nd order protective high pass as on the ported cab, adding at least a 1st and maybe a 2nd order hp butterworth to the sealed sub will help get the low end rolloff about right. ~2nd for the cab natively + 2 protective high pass + 1-2 additional = 5-6 to match the jbl ported cab setup.

then the sealed sub will likely need a touch of eq to get it flat to the rolloff point. of the jbl. perhaps something like f=30hz, q=2.0, gain=+2. tough to say though.

then the jbl will need its *top end* rolled off to match the sealed enclosure. something like a 1st order low pass at 60(?)hz might be a decent start, but it is tough to know how hard the inductance will be rolling off the top end of the big guy.

i suppose that another option could be to plug the ports on the jbl cabs, and roll the top end off with a low pass. that might be easier, now that i think about it.

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post #644 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Ugh ^^^

OK, 130V. Sorry for the misprint. That would, in any case and to the point of my post, translate to 1800W @ 20 Hz. Did he bottom the driver?

At what frequency and with how much power did Warp bottom his drivers? At what frequency and with how much power did Rob bottom his drivers?

If box size is a determinant in excursion limit, how does Rob have safer operating parameters just above tune (20 Hz)?

How exactly did BTH prove that the LMS-U will bottom with 400W @ 20 Hz? Are you saying you agree with that proof?

Sounds like you're nitpicking my posts for sport and not saying much of anything. rolleyes.gif



I was not at Warpdrv's place to witness the bottoming and what frequency it happened at, only saw the results on my last trip through. Regardless, the amount of boost prescribed without knowing that there is basically no room gain was part of that equation. Ask Rob at what frequencies he bottomed his drivers... I can't speak for him either.

"How exactly did BTH prove that the LMS-U will bottom with 400W @ 20 Hz? Are you saying you agree with that proof?"

He was using a fluke meter... however I did not do any research on that meter. With an AC signal into a complex load, there is 'apparent' power, and 'real power' as defined by the power factor. Read his statement again... 400 watts 'real power'.

It has to do with the phase angle, and the relative 'energy storage' in the system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor

This is going to be different for ported vs sealed boxes.

"If box size is a determinant in excursion limit, how does Rob have safer operating parameters just above tune (20 Hz)?" You aren't dealing with a simple resistive load like a light bulb operated on "x" voltage. I haven't modeled the LMS in a while, and I don't intend to spend that time trying to support my position. You can look at the simulations that Rob did, he posted them on a bunch of different forums.

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post #645 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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This weekend gave me a great idea of what real world power I "need" to give these 8 to make them perform near the top of their capabilities and still well withing both their excursion and thermal limits. I think I'm still being a bit conservative with this, but between 3k and 4k per driver should be about perfect. With 2500 the 24 was great and kept up(even passed out in places) dual LMS with 2400 each. No admittedly we didn't have placement down, eq etc on either. When we pushed it with 8kw SP8k amp it really just established itself as in charge of the room. The problem is there was voltage drop or overheating of some sort that shut down one channel of the amp. We measure the coils at 1.68ohm each and were pushing the quite fan optioned SP8k pretty hard. Not sure if the shutting down or the excess power caused it, but there is a slight smell to the woofer now. I think it's fine, as do the others, but I'd say I wouldn't be comfortable giving each woofer 8k and just hoping not to toast the coils biggrin.gif
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post #646 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 09:51 AM
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Lol so now when I say, 'Drop 4kw on that 24 in 10cuft sealed' you guys aren't all gonna get up in a tizzy with, "butermagerddeysay1500RMSondem!11!!!"


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post #647 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

This weekend gave me a great idea of what real world power I "need" to give these 8 to make them perform near the top of their capabilities and still well withing both their excursion and thermal limits. I think I'm still being a bit conservative with this, but between 3k and 4k per driver should be about perfect. With 2500 the 24 was great and kept up(even passed out in places) dual LMS with 2400 each. No admittedly we didn't have placement down, eq etc on either. When we pushed it with 8kw SP8k amp it really just established itself as in charge of the room. The problem is there was voltage drop or overheating of some sort that shut down one channel of the amp. We measure the coils at 1.68ohm each and were pushing the quite fan optioned SP8k pretty hard. Not sure if the shutting down or the excess power caused it, but there is a slight smell to the woofer now. I think it's fine, as do the others, but I'd say I wouldn't be comfortable giving each woofer 8k and just hoping not to toast the coils biggrin.gif

As we discussed yesterday tongue.gif

Option 1: Speakerpower SP-12000's X 2 for 3000 per driver (2 ohm mode)
Option 2: Real mccoy LG14000's X 2 for 3500 burst per drive (2 ohm mode)
Option 3 (budget): Crest Pro-lite 7.5's X4 for ~2400 per driver (4 ohm mode).

Don't see how you can lose with any of these. biggrin.gif


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post #648 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

This weekend gave me a great idea of what real world power I "need" to give these 8 to make them perform near the top of their capabilities and still well withing both their excursion and thermal limits. I think I'm still being a bit conservative with this, but between 3k and 4k per driver should be about perfect. With 2500 the 24 was great and kept up(even passed out in places) dual LMS with 2400 each. No admittedly we didn't have placement down, eq etc on either. When we pushed it with 8kw SP8k amp it really just established itself as in charge of the room. The problem is there was voltage drop or overheating of some sort that shut down one channel of the amp. We measure the coils at 1.68ohm each and were pushing the quite fan optioned SP8k pretty hard. Not sure if the shutting down or the excess power caused it, but there is a slight smell to the woofer now. I think it's fine, as do the others, but I'd say I wouldn't be comfortable giving each woofer 8k and just hoping not to toast the coils biggrin.gif

smell on new woofers is normal to some extent as you heat the coils. The epoxy will give off odor for a bit. Should go away over time.


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post #649 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Lol so now when I say, 'Drop 4kw on that 24 in 10cuft sealed' you guys aren't all gonna get up in a tizzy with, "butermagerddeysay1500RMSondem!11!!!"


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Ha....8kw on that biatch

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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

As we discussed yesterday tongue.gif

Option 1: Speakerpower SP-12000's X 2 for 3000 per driver (2 ohm mode)
Option 2: Real mccoy LG14000's X 2 for 3500 burst per drive (2 ohm mode)
Option 3 (budget): Crest Pro-lite 7.5's X4 for ~2400 per driver (4 ohm mode).

Don't see how you can lose with any of these. biggrin.gif

Yep...The Crest are the most inexpensive option there is for them at like $3200 or just over, but after this weekend I don't think I can put less than 3kw to it and be called a pansy biggrin.gif
I think the SP12000 are going to be the winner here.

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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

smell on new woofers is normal to some extent as you heat the coils. The epoxy will give off odor for a bit. Should go away over time.

Yeah, I think it's fine honestly, but I'm no pro. It wasn't terrible and the driver was still functioning fine when we turned it off. I am quite a spaz so things like that take a day or two to get over for me smile.gif I just felt bad that Popalock's new woof got violated


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post #650 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 10:52 AM
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8 of those is going to be monstrous. I take it you're not interested in powering w/ clones? The dollar/power ratio there is absurd.


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post #651 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 10:55 AM
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Ha....8kw on that biatch

BUT but!!! .... that's more than what they said they can handle!

One more watt and that coil will melt, surely.

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8 of those is going to be monstrous. I take it you're not interested in powering w/ clones? The dollar/power ratio there is absurd.

Mmm, yeah. Get a 14k and bridge that SoB. biggrin.gif


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post #652 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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8 of those is going to be monstrous. I take it you're not interested in powering w/ clones? The dollar/power ratio there is absurd.

No clones for me..just don't want to take any chances with a bad one etc.

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BUT but!!! .... that's more than what they said they can handle!

One more watt and that coil will melt, surely.

tongue.gif
Mmm, yeah. Get a 14k and bridge that SoB. biggrin.gif

Hahaha....it all depends how many beers you get in Nick...that changes the power handling drastically biggrin.gif

I know from testing in multiple places what the limits of this thing are and I'll push it right to that and not beyond. With 8 of em' and 24kw total....EARTHQUAKE!!!


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post #653 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 11:21 AM
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smell on new woofers is normal to some extent as you heat the coils. The epoxy will give off odor for a bit. Should go away over time.

Popalock was able to get that same smell from my REXXX 18 that we pulled to have some fun with. I didn't even get to watch it happen in person frown.gif Surround was certainly dimpling from the one pic I saw....

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post #654 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 11:25 AM
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Popalock was able to get that same smell from my REXXX 18 that we pulled to have some fun with. I didn't even get to watch it happen in person frown.gif Surround was certainly dimpling from the one pic I saw....

Slow-mo 5Hz max excursion video of the XXX coming soon...
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post #655 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 11:26 AM
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Slow-mo 5Hz max excursion video of the XXX coming soon...

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post #656 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Two Seaton Sound specials on the way.....Speaker Power SP12,000s!!! I feel like they're the perfect match with these babys...can't wait to try em' out. Time to start sketching out that baffle wall again. I'm going to experiment with it as a full baffle wall and all 8 on 1/4 points and with no baffle wall and four d/o and on their respective 1/4 points. The sheer size of the mains and really the subs will dictate what I'm able to do there.
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post #657 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 01:45 PM
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Slow-mo 5Hz max excursion video of the XXX coming soon...

Not slow mo but here was my vid:


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post #658 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

As we discussed yesterday tongue.gif

Option 1: Speakerpower SP-12000's X 2 for 3000 per driver (2 ohm mode)
Option 2: Real mccoy LG14000's X 2 for 3500 burst per drive (2 ohm mode)
Option 3 (budget): Crest Pro-lite 7.5's X4 for ~2400 per driver (4 ohm mode).

Don't see how you can lose with any of these. biggrin.gif
I vote for the speaker power amps. The speaker power plate amps in my Triax's have been flawless and I have beat the snot out of them.

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My dedicated theater room build. 

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post #659 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 02:22 PM
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There's some slomo of the lms drivers @ 10hz at some pretty decent excursion I filmed when building my ported boxes here: https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&confirm=hGgK&id=0B4dxOh63yRQ4REFwaWhJMTFkVEk

You can see the surrounds dimpling good there.


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post #660 of 679 Old 04-08-2014, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

I was not at Warpdrv's place to witness the bottoming and what frequency it happened at, only saw the results on my last trip through. Regardless, the amount of boost prescribed without knowing that there is basically no room gain was part of that equation. Ask Rob at what frequencies he bottomed his drivers... I can't speak for him either.

"How exactly did BTH prove that the LMS-U will bottom with 400W @ 20 Hz? Are you saying you agree with that proof?"

He was using a fluke meter... however I did not do any research on that meter. With an AC signal into a complex load, there is 'apparent' power, and 'real power' as defined by the power factor. Read his statement again... 400 watts 'real power'.

It has to do with the phase angle, and the relative 'energy storage' in the system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor

This is going to be different for ported vs sealed boxes.

"If box size is a determinant in excursion limit, how does Rob have safer operating parameters just above tune (20 Hz)?" You aren't dealing with a simple resistive load like a light bulb operated on "x" voltage. I haven't modeled the LMS in a while, and I don't intend to spend that time trying to support my position. You can look at the simulations that Rob did, he posted them on a bunch of different forums.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan87 View Post

Most everyone running sealed LMS's all run 2 per FP14000 clone... 2400watts is only 600 more than an EP2500/4000 which made my Ultra 5400's seem not so impressive. In order to bottom them out on any normal material you'll have to run a significant amount of boost in the very low bass. So yes, much more power.
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post

Shan,

The EP4000 does not put out even close to 1800 watts in my opinion. I've told this story before, actually maybe a page or 2 back in this thread. I went over to Coach's and heard his pair of DO SI18s (4 subs) with each DO enclosure pushed by a bridged EP4000. Comparing them to my LMS 5400s, I was somewhat underwhelmed. I expected the 4 SI18s to perform similarly to my pair of LMS 5400s. Well, I had taken over my SpeakerPower SP-8000 (2x4000w@2ohms, 2x2400w@4ohms) so we hooked up a channel to each cabinet. Well, the subs truly came alive and sounded very similar to the LMS 5400s (audible memory being what it is). Coach ended up switching the Behringer amps for Peavey IPR7500s and he is much happier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan87 View Post

I run a clone myself but based on Data-Bass's measurements at 7 hz an Ultra can take 130 volts(Max long term output) with an impedance of 4.5ohm at 7 Hz which would put it at 3600 watts. I was just simply saying that there should of been a bit more in the tank is all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post


We then spent the day thrashing the HS 24, LMS-U's, [with an SP2-8000 4KW/CH into 2 ohms and IPR 7500, both of which shut down from over current/thermal abuse... no bottoming]

I've spent 10 years using 10-12dB L/T signal shaping with over 100 drivers. Although I always enjoy new information, you have none to offer on this subject.

I don't need to know the room gain profile and simulations are irrelevant. To destroy a world class driver one has to either be clueless or set out to do it in the first place. If my posts assume neither is the case, well, duh.
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