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post #181 of 675 Old 12-03-2013, 12:20 PM
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"...quality output in the upper bass region. How do you measure that?"

eq them the same and play some music that you like. that's all I was say'n.

the 10hz stuff is displacement.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #182 of 675 Old 12-03-2013, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

It wouldn't be that simple, because the main criteria is to be "blown away" at 10hz while maintaining quality output in the upper bass region. How do you measure that? The differences in the drivers will be primarily evident in extreme use.

Ultimately, I can't imagine feeling underwhelmed by 16 18" IB drivers in either high SPL extension or higher frequency sound quality, but I've never dabbled in stuff this extreme as it really doesn't interest me. MK is a well known bass head that likes to listen at very high volumes and he is happy with 8 Fi drivers. Chop is afraid 2x that won't cut it.

Well, I have a small room and Chop's is huge.
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post #183 of 675 Old 12-03-2013, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"...quality output in the upper bass region. How do you measure that?"

eq them the same and play some music that you like. that's all I was say'n.

the 10hz stuff is displacement.

I hear ya. The problem is knowing how much displacement he needs to be satisfied.
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Well, I have a small room and Chop's is huge.

Is it 2x as big?

I guess Chop should just establish a budget and buy as much displacement as possible which sounds like it is 32 of the Fi IB drivers. The AE's would offer some advantage in the upper bass but when you are talking about 32 drivers I'm not sure it will matter much. It also seems he is more concerned about coming up short on the visceral impact at 10hz than anything else.
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post #184 of 675 Old 12-03-2013, 12:43 PM
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Chops room is 5x bigger!
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post #185 of 675 Old 12-03-2013, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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i hope that you have a good plan for absorbing the wave at the rear wall. a big reflection off that could really rain on the parade.

also, the area behind the ib wall should be treated so that the reflection coming off the wall behind it, doesn't come back through the drivers and mess things up.

sounds like you will have enough spl whatever you end up with.

are you giving equal time to the screen size and distance (and the total angle), your sitting location (where your eyes line up on the screen vertically), and all that?

there are lots of crazy options...

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v80), quality = 90

We will address the rear wall for sure. I have read a lot on treatment on the rear wall in a SBA, but have much more to read still, just to be sure.

I think you're right with regard to spl, probably over-thinking it, just neurotic I guess.

I have given as much to the video. My DPI Dvision showed up this week, so I'm going to fire it up soon just to test it out. I ultimately reduced the screen size to 180" wide 2:37. In the end, I don't want to sacfafice pq for the largest screen possible, and my PJ budget just couldn't be six figures, so anything bigger is out for now. 15' wide with seating in the neighborhoods of 13, 21 and 28 should provide one "IMAX" type row, one perfect row and a third, really good row, with respect to viewing angles both horizontal and verticle when risers accounted for. The SEOSR coverage pattern appear to be allowing for really good response across the 14' or so of seating width as well.

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Chop,
I am running 8 Fi drivers in a space smaller than 300 cubes. Each driver sees about 20 cubes and Winisd modeled them for 63 cubes per driver. I would not worry about inductance with the SEOSR! Dual 15's have you covered either way. I have the DR's with 10's and the Auto EQ selected a crossover of 90hz. If the DR's and Fi drivers can be crossed over at 90hz than the SEOSR will have no problems. I mean the DR's drop off at 120hz but still have the goods to deliver. I would go for the 24 Fi drivers, or 36, and call it, why, because the advantages of the AE drivers won't be realized because you won't be using the system to max. 8000 cubes and 24 drivers gets you to a 5 star system and anymore will be headroom. I used to run my systems 10 dBs hot and with my IB 3 dBs hot is all I need now! Tactile is an understatement.

You're post have been encouraging to say the least! I don't think we'll even cross as high as 80hz, but that will remain to be seen I guess, until we get into the room and see how everything acts. I think 24 18s is a good call...like pnw siad, I can install "channels" behind the baffle and adjust the the manifold positions/cutouts to accommodate more if need be.

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I hear ya. The problem is knowing how much displacement he needs to be satisfied.
Is it 2x as big?

I guess Chop should just establish a budget and buy as much displacement as possible which sounds like it is 32 of the Fi IB drivers. The AE's would offer some advantage in the upper bass but when you are talking about 32 drivers I'm not sure it will matter much. It also seems he is more concerned about coming up short on the visceral impact at 10hz than anything else.

The room is really big at around 8000cubes. I am stressing the need for that ULF impact because I basically made the assumption that either option is world class SQ and it will just come down to horsepower from there. It's actually pretty amazing how affordable these options are compared to the cost of the LMS+amps or comparable.
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post #186 of 675 Old 12-03-2013, 01:25 PM
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I forgot how enormous your room was spec'd at. The ideal situation would be to build it somewhat modular with something like 16 drivers and if that simply doesn't do it, add 8 or 16 more. As far as SQ with the AE IBs vs the Fi IBs, it is hard to say. On paper, the AE's should win due to the copper sleeve, but whether that shows itself in real usage, especially under ~80hz with 16 to 32 of the drivers is not a proven fact. I'd probably side with shooting for more displacement in this case. If you start with 16 with more Xmax, you are more likely to stick to that and not need to upgrade.

Awesome choice of projector. I don't know a great deal about projector technology, but I did sit in the DPI room at Cedia a few years back and I was very impressed. If I had the budget I'd have one myself.
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post #187 of 675 Old 12-03-2013, 10:55 PM
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ChopShop1; You wrote "The room is really big at around 8000cubes". I understood it as 40x22x12 feet for the outer concrete shell, this gives about 10 600 ft³, about + 32% larger room volume. For the very low bass, I would use the concrete shell for any calculations and disregard furniture, risers, inner walls etc. If not solid all the way through, I would consider these light weigth and small compared to the wave lengths you are aming for. A wooden shed will not stop or reflect the tsunami wave bass you seem to want..
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post #188 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 12:51 AM
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That DPI DVision projector you got is a very special pj especially since it's one of the only consumer projectors that can display a true 2.37:1 image without black bars or the need of an anamorphic lens. Awesome man!

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post #189 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post


Yeah, I can't fathom his system not being adequate, but to each their own. Obviously the unlimited budget and space solution is to double his present system, but that doesn't seem realistic. I think porting, in practice, likely raises as many issues as it solves, but it might get him more headroom from 13-20hz. Assuming the port compression doesn't negate most of that.

I'd also need more power to my house to double that wink.gif Huge gains with vented enclosures. I'l be picking up some wood soon. Maybe tomorrow.
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post #190 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 04:24 AM - Thread Starter
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ChopShop1; You wrote "The room is really big at around 8000cubes". I understood it as 40x22x12 feet for the outer concrete shell, this gives about 10 600 ft³, about + 32% larger room volume. For the very low bass, I would use the concrete shell for any calculations and disregard furniture, risers, inner walls etc. If not solid all the way through, I would consider these light weigth and small compared to the wave lengths you are aming for. A wooden shed will not stop or reflect the tsunami wave bass you seem to want..

The room was intended to be that, acoustically, not concrete shell(not sure if I made that clear or not), but the IB back space was backed out for the 8000 or so calculation. The 12ft depth is after framing so that adequate risers could be installed and still have a higher ceiling in the rear of the room. The width, inside DD and framing looks like it will come in at 21'8". The length is still TBD exactly, but is around 40 finished, minus however long I make the IB backspace. I guess you're right about the inner walls not really doing much and there is an adjacent room planned as a "lobby"/bar. It's about 14x22x8.5, not very big, but it's more space to consider if there is leakage like you suggest. Floor, ceiling and all walls of the gross area will be concrete.

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I'd also need more power to my house to double that wink.gif Huge gains with vented enclosures. I'l be picking up some wood soon. Maybe tomorrow.

Yikes eek.gif

I'll be watching the thread for progress on the project anxiously.
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post #191 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 05:29 AM
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OK - I'll go against the grain here. biggrin.gif Just a little insight from a fellow who also likes to take on one too many projects.

You've got SO much on your plate - finishing the house, starting a full build of a room - with two little ones in the house! We've gone back and forth between many different drivers and configurations in this thread so far.

Let me simplify for you - spend your efforts in the next year designing the room, building it out, finishing the SEOSRs, and integrating everything properly. Those tasks alone in this size of a room will take months upon months - especially given limited free time with all else that happens in life. Call Jeff @ JTR and order 4 orbit shifters. DONE. Meaningful extension (with proper placement) down in the low teens, gobs of output even outdoors, and very efficient amplifiers with DSP built in.

Alternatively, you could go the G-horn route, but even then you will be spending a considerable amount of time and cost which could be better spent addressing the other areas of the theater.

Just my 1/2 a penny. wink.gif
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post #192 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Dammmm Yoooouuuuuuuuuu!!!

Not a bad idea, all things considered. My only hang up is a few more thousand and not being sure how 4 of them would stack up against these options. It also limits my placement options much more in the sense that there are less sources to spread around to address modes, etc. By the time I'd get done with Ghorns, they'd cost as much with great amplification and I'm not crazy about the "limited" frequency response I've read about
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post #193 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Dammmm Yoooouuuuuuuuuu!!!

Not a bad idea, all things considered. My only hang up is a few more thousand and not being sure how 4 of them would stack up against these options. It also limits my placement options much more in the sense that there are less sources to spread around to address modes, etc. By the time I'd get done with Ghorns, they'd cost as much with great amplification and I'm not crazy about the "limited" frequency response I've read about

The Ghorns response is limited to about 12hz. However, from 15-20hz, a single Ghorn can complete with 3-4 orbit shifters...
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post #194 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 07:56 AM
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That DPI DVision projector you got is a very special pj especially since it's one of the only consumer projectors that can display a true 2.37:1 image without black bars or the need of an anamorphic lens. Awesome man!

I didn't even know that. I really don't pay much attention to projector technology, but I might have to consider one even though it is well beyond what I feel comfortable spending on theater stuff. I guess I could get rid of the race car hobby.
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I'd also need more power to my house to double that wink.gif Huge gains with vented enclosures. I'l be picking up some wood soon. Maybe tomorrow.

Yep, there is a point where sealed, and yours aren't even particularly small sealed, hits a current limit. Without going to a much larger enclosure or IB the only way to gain output is a resonant system. Then it is a question of system design and priorities as discussed in your thread.

Gorilla, by my math it would take about about 6 Orbit Shifters to equal the 16 driver Fi IB setup at 10hz. (rough math so I could have screwed it up) You do make a good point though about time. Building an IB with 16 drivers won't be trivial especially compared to cutting a check to JTR. The JTRs would also have resale value so it would be easy to sell them if he decides to go IB.

Four of the Orbit Shifters would probably give a quick and easy gauge of whether a 8, 16 or 24 driver IB would be needed...or maybe just stick to the OS.
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post #195 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post


Gorilla, by my math it would take about about 6 Orbit Shifters to equal the 16 driver Fi IB setup at 10hz. (rough math so I could have screwed it up) You do make a good point though about time. Building an IB with 16 drivers won't be trivial especially compared to cutting a check to JTR. The JTRs would also have resale value so it would be easy to sell them if he decides to go IB.

Four of the Orbit Shifters would probably give a quick and easy gauge of whether a 8, 16 or 24 driver IB would be needed...or maybe just stick to the OS.

At 10hz, I'm inclined to agree with you. Although having met Jake and talked to him several times, I know he is after that "raw/punch you in the face" type feeling for movie playback. In my experience that is best felt and observed in the 20-80hz range where the horn subs would do quite well. The 5-15hz even at high levels never seemed to invoke that emotion for me.

Also - knowing how often Jake likes to try new gear, the resale component you raise is very valid as well.

Thoughts? Just trying to save my man some headache and time, he's got a lot to do. smile.gif I don't mean to derail I'm just trying to get him back on track to see this project through to completion. smile.gif
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post #196 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 08:10 AM
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Actually it would take 16 OS's to equal 16 Fi drivers at 10hz. The OS's are sealed below 20 hz so act like sealed 30 mm drivers which the FI's are! 4 OS would equal 16 FI drivers above 20 hz.
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post #197 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

The Ghorns response is limited to about 12hz. However, from 15-20hz, a single Ghorn can complete with 3-4 orbit shifters...

I'm not razzing you at all, but that seems unlikely...4 of them?!?!?! are you saying just from 15-20 or from there up?? I can imagine that the OS falls off in that far, though I admittedly haven't used either of these.

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I didn't even know that. I really don't pay much attention to projector technology, but I might have to consider one even though it is well beyond what I feel comfortable spending on theater stuff. I guess I could get rid of the race car hobby.
Yep, there is a point where sealed, and yours aren't even particularly small sealed, hits a current limit. Without going to a much larger enclosure or IB the only way to gain output is a resonant system. Then it is a question of system design and priorities as discussed in your thread.

Gorilla, by my math it would take about about 6 Orbit Shifters to equal the 16 driver Fi IB setup at 10hz. (rough math so I could have screwed it up) You do make a good point though about time. Building an IB with 16 drivers won't be trivial especially compared to cutting a check to JTR. The JTRs would also have resale value so it would be easy to sell them if he decides to go IB.

Four of the Orbit Shifters would probably give a quick and easy gauge of whether a 8, 16 or 24 driver IB would be needed...or maybe just stick to the OS.

Interesting when talking how many OS it would take to do the same at 10hz, but I wonder how close a four or six pack of OS/ghorns would be to 24 IB18s too. As for resale, I know I'm fighting the inevitable upgrade bug, but I'm hoping to get it done and not even have to think about resale....I'd hope anything beyond any of these would be purely for fun experiments
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post #198 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 08:17 AM
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I'm not razzing you at all, but that seems unlikely...4 of them?!?!?! are you saying just from 15-20 or from there up?? I can imagine that the OS falls off in that far, though I admittedly haven't used either of these.
Interesting when talking how many OS it would take to do the same at 10hz, but I wonder how close a four or six pack of OS/ghorns would be to 24 IB18s too. As for resale, I know I'm fighting the inevitable upgrade bug, but I'm hoping to get it done and not even have to think about resale....I'd hope anything beyond any of these would be purely for fun experiments

I'm talking about just 15-20hz. From 30hz on up, a single OS has more SPL than a single Ghorn.

I of course base this off my own measurements of each in my room smile.gif
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post #199 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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At 10hz, I'm inclined to agree with you. Although having met Jake and talked to him several times, I know he is after that "raw/punch you in the face" type feeling for movie playback. In my experience that is best felt and observed in the 20-80hz range where the horn subs would do quite well. The 5-15hz even at high levels never seemed to invoke that emotion for me.

Also - knowing how often Jake likes to try new gear, the resale component you raise is very valid as well.

Thoughts? Just trying to save my man some headache and time, he's got a lot to do. smile.gif I don't mean to derail I'm just trying to get him back on track to see this project through to completion. smile.gif

All good observations biggrin.gif I agree on the content and the ghorn probably has the least compromise being that the super low end stuff wil be much more rare and the impact will come from the range right in their wheelhouse! Just not sure how much advantage they'd offer over 24 IBs, if any.

The resale, based on how I buy and sell things, is a great point. Only thing is that this should be the ultimate 'keeper" of a sub system one way or the other, and I'd hate to give anything up because resale had a bearing on it. Probably at myown detriment, I won't think about resale much...Jeez I just sold the last two extra Datyon 18s I had for $170 each after shipping all in.

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Actually it would take 16 OS's to equal 16 Fi drivers at 10hz. The OS's are sealed below 20 hz so act like sealed 30 mm drivers which the FI's are! 4 OS would equal 16 FI drivers above 20 hz.

This logic makes me think that 24 IB 18s is just about the best I can do....well except for 32 of them biggrin.gif Seriously though, if I can get the 10hz output for those rare occasions, and the 24 driver IB would be like a half dozen OS above 20hz, and that's not enough, I'll send myself packing
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post #200 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm talking about just 15-20hz. From 30hz on up, a single OS has more SPL than a single Ghorn.

I of course base this off my own measurements of each in my room smile.gif

Aha, makes sense then. Which do you get better low end extension from?? I assume the ghorn
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post #201 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 08:26 AM
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Aha, makes sense then. Which do you get better low end extension from?? I assume the ghorn

In my opinion, don't expect "useful" single digit response from either.
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post #202 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 08:35 AM
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The good news is the placement of an IB that big is a non-issue with it creating an essentially solid wave front to back. If this weren't the issue, I would be much more hesitant one direction over another. getting good response in room with 4 OS's would be pretty stinkin' easy too though biggrin.gif haha.

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post #203 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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In my opinion, don't expect "useful" single digit response from either.

Understood

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The good news is the placement of an IB that big is a non-issue with it creating an essentially solid wave front to back. If this weren't the issue, I would be much more hesitant one direction over another. getting good response in room with 4 OS's would be pretty stinkin' easy too though biggrin.gif haha.

The IB really does seem like the easiest way to do it all. I know that sounds funny because the typcial challange with and IB is the space, which is easy for me at this point. It's very easy to construct from there in my spot. I am going to build the baffle wall for the lcr and all I really have to do is mount manifolds/tracks to the back and mount the drivers. It will probably take less time than building a pair of ghorns.
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post #204 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 09:05 AM
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Have you listened to a good IB before? It is a a different sound for sure. So clean and effortless, but lacks the THD that many are used to and often increases the perception of the "Slam" etc. multiple sealed obviously decreases the THD as well, but man, the IB is still just a little more different IMO.

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post #205 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 09:21 AM
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My new IB sounds fantastic!
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post #206 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Have you listened to a good IB before? It is a a different sound for sure. So clean and effortless, but lacks the THD that many are used to and often increases the perception of the "Slam" etc. multiple sealed obviously decreases the THD as well, but man, the IB is still just a little more different IMO.

I don't know how to answer that honestly. I had IBs in cars before, but of course not "true" ib. I am not the kind of person though, that mistakes distortion for good volume, or anything like that. I know what you mean, folks mistake that for slam or impact. I like "clean" sound, always have. I know most say the sound is different and for some, takes some getting used to. IMO, if it's the purest sound, then it's what we should be hearing and the prior sound that one may have gotten used to would be "unnatural". Now, that does come down to taster, just like speaker voicing I'd say. It would be a pisser to get done and not like the sound eek.gif I can't imagine that'd happen though
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post #207 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 10:04 AM
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Just go ahead and order 96 of these and place them in clusters of 8-16 in various places throughout the room. Never worry about not having enough again. tongue.gif:D
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post #208 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Just go ahead and order 96 of these and place them in clusters of 8-16 in various places throughout the room. Never worry about not having enough again. tongue.gif:D

U crackin' wise wit me Ricci?? biggrin.giftongue.gif
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post #209 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

My new IB sounds fantastic!

I think we all know that by now bro smile.gif Glad you are enjoying nonetheless cool.gif

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post #210 of 675 Old 12-04-2013, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

U crackin' wise wit me Ricci?? biggrin.giftongue.gif

Well, they do have a 5 star review from a dude with an '86 Monte Carlo! Sounds legit. biggrin.gif
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