"Why would anyone want to bother building a kit that costs $300 without any paint when he can add to cart on our Theater 10?" - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Shots have been fired from Chase Home Theater or Chane Music & Cinema as they may be known in the future.

Fresh off a merger announcement, they are introducing some new products. One is a 2-way to replace the outgoing PRO/SHO-10 named the Theater-10.
Quote:
The Theater-10 monitor is our replacement for the current PRO/SHO-10's. It is a highly efficient (94 + dB) monitor that took the strengths of the current PRO/SHO monitors and added to them extension to 60 Hz (-6 dB).

We are testing the monitors in our system now, and while Audyssey would set the PRO/SHO to 100-120 Hz in our room, it is setting 80 Hz on the new monitors. The 94 dB rating is based on the lowest sensitivity of the woofer. If we rated it like the PRO's were, they would come with a 97 dB rating.

The cabinet is 19.75 x 11.75 x 10 inches. Weight is 31 pounds net, including grill.

The cabinet has 6 walls around it - both side walls are angled in order to prevent standing waves.

Pictures will be posted later this week, along with listening impressions.

For now, suffice it to say that the first 6 hours of listening tests have had me smiling. They are exactly what we have been looking for.

Pricing: $395 per speaker including an integrated metal grill.

Estimated arrival: November 1, 2013

Here is picture #1 - A PRO-10 is the middle speaker, the left speaker is the MS-10 with grill, the right without grill: Production units will not have the "VComtek" badge, but will ship with our "Chase" badge as seen on the M-1. Also note the woofer. It is ROBUST.

Not much to go on, but this is what I've gathered so far:

They are slapping their name on some mystery Chinese PA speakers, the 'Vcomtek MS-10+': http://www.vcomtek.com/product/Professional_sound_speaker/2012/0525/83.html

"MS series speaker light in weight,easy to install and hang up,ladder-shape design,control internal standing wave.Outstanding for its sound design to make the sound much clear.It applied to small medium-sized conference room."

Here is a picture of the Vcomtek MS-10+ or Chase Theater-10 (outside units) next to the outgoing model, the SHO-10 (middle):



If I'm not mistaken, the only noted changes to this Chinese PA model is the badge on the grill and the speakons may end up being swapped for binding posts.

Like previous Chase products, it's anticipated this rebadged speaker will have claims of being "custom" because of those modifications.

A status update was given in mid-July, "The status is they are not being built yet. The supply chains from many of these Chinese companies are not very reliable. I would continue with a newer variation of the SHO-10's, but my brother is not interested."

By October issues the Theater-10 looked to be resolved and shipping shortly was in need of some good press as folks were anxious to know how they would fare replacing the outgoing models.

An obvious target was chosen, and things begin to heat up:
Quote:
MK ... I am looking at the SEOS kits ... If I am correct, one can purchase the kit with the flat pack enclosure for $267 per speaker including binding posts.

This is for the ten inch design that would be the direct competitor to the Theater-10.

One gets the kit, and has to assemble the crossover, the cabinet, mount the binding posts, the drivers then finish the cabinet.

This would still not include a grill.

The final pricing AFTER the group buy is over on the Theater-10 will be $350 per speaker including finish and grill.

Basically - the choices are:

1. Spend $267 per speaker kit plus X hours of labor assembling/gluing the cabinet and installing all the hardware, then purchasing the paint for the finish with another Y hours of labor for the finished product.

2. Spend $350 on a Theater 10 and hook it up.

This is not nit picking on my part - it is merely pointing out the dollars involved vs. the time involved.

Some subtle digs, but let's continue:
Quote:
I only posted this as a gentle reminder to those (not YOU) in the DIY community who do things like pretend the only cost for building speakers/subwoofers is the raw parts.

They leave out finishing supplies (usually), tools they needed to purchase, time and gas running to various stores for supplies, and most importantly, LABOR needed.

Most of our customers like buying new, getting a completed product shipped to his door, having a 1 to 7 year warranty depending on the product, being able to all for assistance and NOT having to spend 6 weekends in a wood shop.

Take a Theater 10 at the group buy of $300. Why would anyone want to bother building a kit that costs $300 without any paint when he can add to cart on our Theater 10?

The answer is simple - The guy LOVES to build stuff.

Here is the MAIN ISSUE with certain guys in the DIY section: They love to trash commercially built products. They use poor science at best to prove their point.

Allow an example: Most of the same guys who trash commercially built products also trash the concept that amplifiers sound different.

They point to blind studies/tests as proof.

These same guys (and again, it is a minority of the DIY guys - but also the most vocal) will build a speaker, turn it on, post 2 sweeps with Omni mic and declare TOTAL superiority. Suddenly, blind tests and real listening science is not important

I am cool with that - but when these select few make it a mission to trash anything not DIY unless it comes from their pet manufacturers, then it is time for us to respond.

At our next GTG, I think people will realize just HOW good a value the Theater 10's are. Even at the standard price of $350, they are an absolute gem of a deal.

Now the cheap shots have been fired:

"Take a Theater 10 at the group buy of $300. Why would anyone want to bother building a kit that costs $300 without any paint when he can add to cart on our Theater 10?

The answer is simple - The guy LOVES to build stuff."


Receiving hesitant response, some more posturing:
Quote:
No, it isn't fair to suggest that the Theater 10's were based on a "low cost commercial PA model". The original PRO-10's were voiced using a $1000 high end loudspeaker, and the Theater-10's were voiced after the PRO-10's.

It would also not be fair to suggest that any of Erich's designs were based on a "low cost commercial PA system".

I would love to have someone bring three of Erich's speakers to our GTG, so we could do a comparison.

Let's say someone did, and we ran about a half hour blind test with each ... and let's further say that the SEOS waveguide system, under this test, averaged a "90" score while the Theater 10's averaged an "80".

Let's also say I could build and bring to market a "deluxe Theater 10" for $450 that matched what Erich could deliver in a "flat pack" for $300 (with a completed crossover) ... both speakers could serve the market well. To some guys, it would be worth the $150 not to have to assemble the cabinet, install the drivers, the binding posts, the fill ... and then buy the paint and finish them.

To others, the $150 saved per speaker ... OR ... the pride in doing the assembly ... makes all the sense in the world. To those guys, I say GREAT ... show us the pics when you are done.

The other side of this ... let's say that people called it a "draw" under blind tests ... now the respective models are about the same money, but the Theater 10 would be much simpler for the customer.

In fact - I am so in favor of someone bringing three of Erich's speakers to the GTG that I will personally PAY for the parts needed to do so, and who ever builds them and brings them here will get to keep them.

I suppose it isn't fair to suggest the Theater-10s are "based on" a low cost commercial PA system... because they actually are a low cost commercial PA system? I really don't know how else to explain that claim.

Here we see Chase beginning to set the stage for a showdown between the Fusion-10 and the Theater-10 giving hypothetical conclusions and what we are supposed to take from them.

Not enough, so we see a little more sarcastic smack talk being delivered:
Quote:
Guys - let's let the GTG introduce the Theater 10's ... Defining things like "better" in the world of audio has always been dicey.

This is why we are going to put our Theater 10's up against the DIY Fusion 10's.

According to everything one will read, the Fusion 10's should mop the floor with the Theater 10's.

Let's see what happens under blind conditions.

Some of you already know, MKTheater took Chase up on his offer to pay for a set of Fusion-10s to build them and bring them to the GTG this past weekend for this showdown.

(MK has been hesitant to disclose this information for unknown reasons and would prefer to keep his current thread's discussion about his IB build, so we've moved it here.)

We'll continue with the GTG results and write-ups in the next post.
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post #2 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Pictures from the GTG related to this blind test:

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 75
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 75
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 75
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 75
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 75
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 75

As anticipated by some AVS members, the blind showdown consisted of Chase alone conducting configuration of each "behind the curtain". Here's the procedure as given by Chase:
Quote:
Guys - Here was the set up procedure for the blind test:

1. Speaker "A" was set up using Audyssey XT-32. Volume was set to 75 on the receiver during the Audyssey sweep. The Marantz 7008 configured the left at -5 dB, center at -6 dB and right at -6 dB.

Subwoofer A was -3 dB and B was - 5 dB.

After setting Audyssey, manual was selected to check levels, and the LCR channels were all running at 76 dB.

2. Speaker "B" was then done in an identical method. the left was set at -4 dB, the center at -5 dB and the right at -4 dB. Subwoofers were at -3 and -5 dB again as expected.

Manual check was done, and the test tone measured at 75 dB.

3. Speaker setup "A" was auditioned for about 45 minutes, then a break was taken while speaker setup "B" was configured. It took about 25 minutes to set up speaker "B".

After the first track (Iron Man 2) on speaker "B", the panel felt speaker "B" was running hotter. After I dropped the volume by 4 dB on "B", everyone agreed that they thought the volume, to their ears, matched the speaker "A" test.

We then did the 2nd and third tracks (Avatar and Open Range) with the 4 dB reduction in place.

I then asked the panel if they wanted to repeat "Iron Man 2" at the lower setting for speaker "B". They unanimously stated no.

4. After all the blind listening tests were done, the panel handed in their notes. We then went into the theater room, so they could see the speakers which were hooked up under the speaker cloth.

5. AFTER some discussion, the panel wanted to do another set of listening with the Audyssey turned off. We then watched the opening 15 minutes of "Despicable Me" on both speakers.

Doing this only required about 3 minutes between the listening sessions, which assisted the panel in not having that 25 minutes between the sessions.

Cliff notes:

The Fusion-10's were run with XT32 and then levels set to 76db. The Theater-10's again run with XT32 and then levels set to 75dB.

After running through the material with the Fusion-10s and then switching to the Theater-10s, the first demo prompted everyone to feel that the Theater-10's were being run "hotter". So the volume was dropped by 4dB (71dB vs Fusion's 76dB) for the remaining material.

Here we have the first write-up from an attendee, Fatcat:
Quote:
Blind test of Theater 10s vs Fusion 10s: MKTheater brought three Fusion 10s over the night before. They had been assembled from a flat pack kit so they had a raw MDF surface appearance. Regardless, they looked impressive physically and the waveguide for the compression driver looks plenty serious. Craig had set up both sets of speakers under large swaths of black grille cloth so that we couldn't tell which set was playing. All we knew was that we were going to watch/listen to 3 sets of movie clips with "Speakers A". We would then all leave the room while Craig set up "Speakers B" and then we would come back in to watch/listen to the same three clips and then jot down our impressions. Once we did that and discussed our thoughts Craig did the reveal of which speakers were "A" and "B". Both sets of speakers were calibrated with Audessy XT32 between listening sessions. All the attendees should feel free to chime in and add their thoughts but my personal opinion was that I felt "Speakers B" sounded superior. I thought they were more dynamic sounding, they had more sparkle in high frequencies versus "speakers A" which sounded a little flat to my ears. When we heard "speakers B" it was like someone had pushed the "loudness" button and there was more happening way up high and way down low while the mids sounded the same while not being overpowered by the rest of the spectrum. After our session it was revealed that "Speakers B" we're the Theater 10s. I got the impression that most other folks felt the same way in their comments as well. After the blind portion we listened to each set again with Audessy turned off to see how they were "as is" and unequalized. Personally I still felt the Theater 10s were the better sounding speaker still. Again, other attendees should please chime in and post their thoughts.
I'm going to turn in for the night and post some more thoughts in the morning.

Here's the summary:

Fusion-10
  • little flat to my ears

Theater-10
  • superior
  • more dynamic sounding
  • had more sparkle in the high frequencies
  • more happening way up high and way down low
  • better sounding speaker

Of note is that the group at the GTG seemed to have a consensus about those conclusions:

"I got the impression that most other folks felt the same way in their comments as well."


On to the second attendee write-up, from sbdman:
Quote:
The focus of the GTG was the new Theater 10, and to test it's qualities, MKtheater had built the SEOS Fusion-10 Pure, and seeing the build details in his thread with the hand picked CD, a horn that seems the best you can buy at the moment, The Delta 10, and a crafted crossover designed by the DIY guys at AVS and a kit that looked quite easy to build, but personally I don't have the equipment to put on a quality finish I would require in my HT.

The group was made privy to the details of the Theater-10 after the blind test, and I wouldn't want to possibly give away any details, but my observations would tell me that the smaller horn wouldn't give the wide sound field of the SEOS, and the obviously larger box size and ports of the Fusion suggested an unfair comparison to Craig's new speaker. Also knowing the efficiency advantage of the Fusion, I thought this not a wise choice for comparison, IMO.

Now on to the blind test. Asim handed me a list of traits to think about during our review of the two speakers, we had no idea which was the first (A), and second (B). I had arrived just 20 minutes prior to the evaluation, so I gave it my best as a speaker nube, mostly having lower end models in the past. I was in the back right seat. At various points of the movies I was trying to get a picture associated in my mind with combinations of sounds, the rockets exploding into the Sacred Tree with the rustling leaves of the bushes, or the thudding metallic feet with the gurgling water nearby, or the atomic blast of the double barrel shotgun blasting the window and it's tinkling delicate effects. After speaker A had been reviewed, I struggled to reason why I thought it didn't sound as good as when I had listened to these scenes in the past? We went downstairs to let Craig hook up and run Audyssey on speaker B. Should I tell Craig I thought that maybe that back rear seat didn't have a good response? Maybe my 6 hour drive took a toll on my ears, and ruined the actual response of A?

Sitting down for the testing of B, I felt this was going to turn out as I predicted. and after a couple minutes watching Avatar, I thought Craig was pulling a fast one on us - it sounded definitely louder, and I new a louder speaker usually sounds better. Asim asked Craig to stop the movie, said it sounded louder, and I and others agreed. Craig explained both were set up the same, at the same volume, but dropped it a couple times to 4 dB which seemed about right to me. But, speaker B still seemed to trump A in almost every category with maybe tying in bass transition to the subs. Dynamics were close in both [I'd have to check these with my notes, but I think this was what I scribbled in the dark], but speaker B had the presence, clarity, precision and detail in spades over A.

We turned in our decisions and I even told Craig I thought I needed to recuse myself from the test that the first speaker must have been flat without an image because of my 6 hours of road noise, and mountainous ear popping - I was convinced that A was the Theater-10, and I couldn't give it a fair evaluation. I was stunned when Craig said B was the Theater-10.

The second part was just as revealing, the non-eq'd A vs B test. This gorgeous but unfinished Fusion had an equivalent voice, but not quite as deep in bass or noticeable uhf with sizzle in the high end as the Theater-10 so good for HT and voice clarity during loud bass scenes. But at no time did it seem shrill or taxing. I didn't notice which played the scene louder, so any efficiency difference didn't jump out at me. It was surprising to witness what a great deal these guys are. They seem quite a bit heftier than the SHO/PRO line. And the metal grills are very robust.

The summary:

Fusion-10
  • didn't sound as good as when I had listened to these scenes in the past
  • didn't sound like a good response
  • similar in bass transition to the subs, and dynamics
  • flat without an image
  • equivalent voice but not quite as deep in bass or noticeable uhf with sizzle in the high end as the Theater-10

Theater-10
  • trumped the Fusion-10 in almost every category
  • similar dynamics but presence
  • clarity, precision and detail in spades over the Fusion-10
  • good for HT and voice clarity during loud bass scenes
  • at no time did it seem shrill or taxing


And one more write-up from MKTheater, though more... diplomatic:
Quote:
I suggested to the guys to have a list of things they liked in a speaker and then I used my speaker shootout criteria because that is what I look for. I shared this with the guys and it became the standard. I listened for dynamics, detail, soundstage, midbass, feeling, and overall which was a better cinematic experience.

We listened to 3 clips consisting of Iron Man 2, Avatar, and Open range. First it was speaker A and to me it was very smooth with laid back highs but all the detail. I thought the bass was a little overwhelming compared to the speaker so I figured this was the bass being run hot. As soon as speaker B was listened to I immediately thought the levels were higher or the speaker was not level with the bass. I waited for someone else to bring this up and they did so it was turned down 4 dBs but that was guessing as I thought it was still a little louder.

How many times I tell myself to bring and spl meter just in case and I never do! Anyways I thought speaker B had more detail(easier to hear because louder), more dynamics, and a better overall presentation. I still thought during Avatar when the queen spoke you could feel speaker A better and when the musical score hit you had a little better midbass punch. I chalked this up to a loudness thing and or an Audyssey thing. The SEOS was laid back compared to my DR's but it was better balanced without any EQ.

So I recommended to try again but this time no audyssey. We used a different movie altogether but I just wanted to hear some quick differences without Audyssey. We listened to the intro of despicable me with both sets and now the levels were close. Again, not sure if exact but now I could tell the SEOS was more alive than before. Frankly, I could not tell much difference between the speakers this time but it was a short clip. I thought maybe the theater 10 was a little bit more dynamic but again I needed more time with known sources to really decide. To me the theater 10 is a worthy replacement for the Sho's because of two things, they had better midbass punch(when hitting a drum) and the one thing I liked about them was the more live sound they had.

I never got that sound from the SHO-10's before but I will retry the SHO-10's in my theater and have a 3 way battle. My DR's just have a much bigger more dynamic sound than both so I know why I have them. Anyways, I liked the feel and some midbass(score) on the SEOS better but like the dynamics and live sound of the theater 10's better. It would be up to the individual to decide what they like better. The SEOS could be played loud and the highs are very nice and smooth. My DR's can bite your head off if you are not careful.

The SEOS would be about $310 shipped with paint. The theater 10's will be $395 shipped. I would need more time with both in my room to determine. The theater 10's cabinets are cool looking with the triangle shape. I like the speakon jacks but I think Craig is changing them to binding posts. I would love to have more time and listen to them again. They are closer than not which I could tell without EQ. BTW, I threw in a 888 LP as a center just to compare quickly and I don't think anyone noticed a difference in that small clip. I did, I could feel it a bit more. Also, I was dead center in front! The surprise of the day for me were the Salk Songtowers! They are awesome 2 channel speakers. I like these very much so, too bad they would blow up in my theater at reference.

Summary:

Fusion-10
  • very smooth with laid back highs
  • better spoken feeling and musical midbass punch during Avatar

Theater-10
  • more detail than the Fusion-10
  • more dynamics
  • better overall presentation
  • better live sound


Another writeup from atendee, d12d:
Quote:
I think Craig has it covered pretty well regarding the setup and what we did to test. As far as what I heard during the blind test I was kind of dissapointed after hearing speaker A. It sounded ok but didn't have great dynamics. After we got to hear Speaker B I thought it was superior by a wide margin. I know the comments I wrote down weren't much(good, better, excellent, etc.) but during the blind test I thought Speaker B was the clear winner as did the rest of the group.

The difference was so wide the group(mainly MKTheater) requested to hear both speakers again with no EQ. This test was not done blind and was somewhat short as it was only one clip of one movie. With no EQ I thought the speakers sounded much closer in quality but still would give the edge to speaker B(the Theater 10's). I thought the Theater 10's had much better midbass and dynamics.

In auditioning these with music vs. the Songtowers and A5's the Theater 10's definitely held their own. The Songtowers I thought sounded the best musically but they weren't drastically better than the other two. The only thing the Theater 10's I thought were slightly lacking ws the low end bass which isn't a fair comparison but that is easily resolved running these with a sub.

Long story short there is definitely a place for the Theater 10's and I consider them a great value especially if you get them before the end of the month at their sale price. I plan on getting a set of these if that lets everyone know how much I liked these.

The finish on the Theater 10's is nice as well and would look good in most people's rooms. I'm looking forward to hopefully attending future GTG's as well as I had a great time. Thanks again to Craig and everyone else that was there!

Summary:

Fusion-10
  • disappointing after hearing
  • sounded ok but didn't have great dynamics


Theater-10
  • superior by a wide margin
  • clear winner (consensus with rest of the group)
  • difference was so wide (clear winner) the group requested to hear both again with no EQ
  • with no EQ closer, but still give the edge to T10
  • better midbass and dynamics

If anyone else puts together a write-up I'll add it here. (I believe there were 6 listeners total?)
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post #3 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 11:18 AM
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I wouldn't say "we" are doing that, no.
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post #5 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 11:51 AM
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What is the point of this thread?
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Some people wanted it in it's own thread instead of MK's combo thread.

This discussion started here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1486330/fi-ib3-18-x-8-and-seos-pure-10-kits/600_60#post_23982911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Some people wanted it in it's own thread instead of MK's combo thread.

If I'm reading this correctly, Craig performed the calibration and setup of each speaker in the audition?

If that's the case, I don't trust any of it for a second.
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post #8 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

If I'm reading this correctly, Craig performed the calibration and setup of each speaker in the audition?

If that's the case, I don't trust any of it for a second.

Correct,

"Craig had set up both sets of speakers under large swaths of black grille cloth so that we couldn't tell which set was playing. All we knew was that we were going to watch/listen to 3 sets of movie clips with "Speakers A". We would then all leave the room while Craig set up "Speakers B" and then we would come back in to watch/listen to the same three clips and then jot down our impressions."
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I would like to see/hear more DIY models compared to commercial models and against other DIY, but with a larger test group of both speakers and listeners. I do remember reading that the Fusion has laid back highs by design.
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post #10 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Correct,

"Craig had set up both sets of speakers under large swaths of black grille cloth so that we couldn't tell which set was playing. All we knew was that we were going to watch/listen to 3 sets of movie clips with "Speakers A". We would then all leave the room while Craig set up "Speakers B" and then we would come back in to watch/listen to the same three clips and then jot down our impressions."

If MK had performed setup/calibration/level setting, I'd believe it was a true comparison.

I don't put anything past Craig for him giving his product any and all advantages.
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post #11 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 12:35 PM
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Craig says the 25 minute break between auditions made for the apparent volume difference. He claims this happens at concerts with an intermission. I can't say I've ever experienced that. I would say 25 minutes is long enough to start distorting audio memory, but not obvious SPL differences. Also, did I read somewhere that MK noted the subs sounded high compared to speaker A? Another way of saying that is the speakers were turned low relative to the subs and calibration... I'm glad MK suggested a visual audition. I can't seem to gather the details on how that turned out though. Maybe not many people listened or could hear much difference. Most of the reviews are based on the blind listen.

The only time I've experienced that at a concert was when the opening band wasn't as loud as the main event. And often they were using entirely different FOH setups.

Has anyone else experienced what he's talking about? Maybe its just never happened to me.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Craig says the 25 minute break between auditions made for the apparent volume difference. He claims this happens at concerts with an intermission. I can't say I've ever experienced that. I would say 25 minutes is long enough to start distorting audio memory, but not obvious SPL differences. Also, did I read somewhere that MK noted the subs sounded high compared to speaker A? Another way of saying that is the speakers were turned low relative to the subs and calibration... I'm glad MK suggested a visual audition. I can't seem to gather the details on how that turned out though. Maybe not many people listened or could hear much difference. Most of the reviews are based on the blind listen.

The only time I've experienced that at a concert was when the opening band wasn't as loud as the main event. And often they were using entirely different FOH setups.

Has anyone else experienced what he's talking about? Maybe its just never happened to me.

The only notes regarding visual listening (and without Audyssey) are these (one from each, in order). It should also be noted that at this point A and B have been revealed, so preferences have already been conditioned:

"Personally I still felt the Theater 10s were the better sounding speaker still."

"The second part was just as revealing, the non-eq'd A vs B test. This gorgeous but unfinished Fusion had an equivalent voice, but not quite as deep in bass or noticeable uhf with sizzle in the high end as the Theater-10 so good for HT and voice clarity during loud bass scenes. But at no time did it seem shrill or taxing. I didn't notice which played the scene louder, so any efficiency difference didn't jump out at me."

"Again, not sure if exact but now I could tell the SEOS was more alive than before. Frankly, I could not tell much difference between the speakers this time but it was a short clip. I thought maybe the theater 10 was a little bit more dynamic but again I needed more time with known sources to really decide."

What's interesting about the "5dB" volume difference during the blind listening is that MK immediately knew the Theater-10's were louder but didn't say anything to wait and see if anyone else noticed- and they did. MK thought after the -4dB reduction (75dB to 71dB) leaving a supposed +5dB advantage to the Fusion-10 (76dB) that the Theater-10 was still louder.

"As soon as speaker B was listened to I immediately thought the levels were higher or the speaker was not level with the bass. I waited for someone else to bring this up and they did so it was turned down 4 dBs but that was guessing as I thought it was still a little louder."

Another interesting point about this from nube:
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Originally Posted by nube View Post

So, what I wrote was almost undoubtedly true, since CC agreed to lower the volume by 4dB on the Speaker B test? He would never agree to that unless the thing was rigged from the get-go. That's just not his MO.

Considering he knew he was lowering his speaker putting it at a theoretical -5dB disadvantage, for him to quickly agree to that raises some pretty sketchy flags. Far more likely would be a spiel about 25-min volume memory, or even using an SPL meter to verify levels at LP, or showing someone else the channel levels set in the receiver. But everyone says, "these are louder" and he says, "oh ok, I'll turn them down so they're even...". Um.

As to the subs/bass relative, yes MK noted they seemed high:

"I thought the bass was a little overwhelming compared to the speaker so I figured this was the bass being run hot."
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post #13 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 01:21 PM
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It's a shame that James is censoring his thread.

What we have called "spirited debates" in years past is how we as a community have learned everything we currently know about this segment of audio playback. The readers who get all judgmental and politically correct about nfraso's posts (or anyone else's who calls BS when he sees it) are the same newcomers who have reaped the truckload of accumulated knowledge that has, in part, made this forum one of the largest and most oft-quoted in the world.

This baloney from Chase is nothing compared to the verbal blows we've exchanged in the past. The "LLT vs SEALED" exchanges between Callas and myself come to mind. I don't remember either of us running to the principal to 'tell', visiting the shrink to have our fragile sensibilities mended and I especially don't remember tolerating self-appointed posting style critics gumming up the debates with these inane "Here's how you come off to me" posts.

To those sorts, I'm not interested in what anyone thinks of what words I use in what order to voice my opinion and, contribute something or shut up.

But, here's the bottom line:

No one has ever gotten a pass after bursting into this sub forum with "My [fill in the blank] is better than your stuff because some people said my [fill in the blank] sounds really good". Especially when his only basis for the comment is a rigged WinISD model and… nothing else. If and when that happens, that person is nearly immediately called out. The debate may be over in an hour or last for many pages, but… there will be a debate.

Is CC above this standard for any conceivable reason? Oh, hell no. So, James… you know I love ya, man but, deal with it.

Having a blind shootout with no data and one of the principals at the controls is not something anyone with half a brain would ever take seriously. Be that as it may, it is what has happened. Chase says buying an off-the-shelf Chinese speaker from him is a better choice than the culmination of years of DIY diligence, most of it open source and free of charge. To prove it, he has held a blind listening test where he controls the environment and the signal chain. Chase says the vocal minority in this sub forum are basically inept. In fact, he told me directly that I am a clueless noob where sealed subwoofers are concerned. That may be true, but, regarding that claim along with the crackpot audio claims made… prove it.

Where are the FRs of the speakers before and after auto-EQ? What was in line in the signal chain? What are the calibration details? Where is the calibration data? Were the speakers placed in the exact spots? Were they optimized for directionality, toe-in, etc? Were both speakers facing the listeners? Are there peak hold graphs of each speaker playing the same scene? Is there THD test results? Are there measurements from each seat?

Tux and Erich,

Can you guys post specs, sizes, weights, pics, measurements, etc?
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post #14 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 01:37 PM
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"As soon as speaker B was listened to I immediately thought the levels were higher or the speaker was not level with the bass. I waited for someone else to bring this up and they did so it was turned down 4 dBs but that was guessing as I thought it was still a little louder."

I'm far more noob than most around here, but when I hear this I immeadiately think distortion or compression.

FWIW I've never heard any CHT or SEOS offerings, but I can say that I've picked up on the "better than you" mentality from CHT by reading info from him on his forum. It's for this reason alone that I'll not buy any of his products new or used.
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post #15 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 02:09 PM
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post #16 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

It's a shame that James is censoring his thread.

What we have called "spirited debates" in years past is how we as a community have learned everything we currently know about this segment of audio playback. The readers who get all judgmental and politically correct about nfraso's posts (or anyone else's who calls BS when he sees it) are the same newcomers who have reaped the truckload of accumulated knowledge that has, in part, made this forum one of the largest and most oft-quoted in the world.

This baloney from Chase is nothing compared to the verbal blows we've exchanged in the past. The "LLT vs SEALED" exchanges between Callas and myself come to mind. I don't remember either of us running to the principal to 'tell', visiting the shrink to have our fragile sensibilities mended and I especially don't remember tolerating self-appointed posting style critics gumming up the debates with these inane "Here's how you come off to me" posts.

To those sorts, I'm not interested in what anyone thinks of what words I use in what order to voice my opinion and, contribute something or shut up.

But, here's the bottom line:

No one has ever gotten a pass after bursting into this sub forum with "My [fill in the blank] is better than your stuff because some people said my [fill in the blank] sounds really good". Especially when his only basis for the comment is a rigged WinISD model and… nothing else. If and when that happens, that person is nearly immediately called out. The debate may be over in an hour or last for many pages, but… there will be a debate.

Is CC above this standard for any conceivable reason? Oh, hell no. So, James… you know I love ya, man but, deal with it.

Having a blind shootout with no data and one of the principals at the controls is not something anyone with half a brain would ever take seriously. Be that as it may, it is what has happened. Chase says buying an off-the-shelf Chinese speaker from him is a better choice than the culmination of years of DIY diligence, most of it open source and free of charge. To prove it, he has held a blind listening test where he controls the environment and the signal chain. Chase says the vocal minority in this sub forum are basically inept. In fact, he told me directly that I am a clueless noob where sealed subwoofers are concerned. That may be true, but, regarding that claim along with the crackpot audio claims made… prove it.

Where are the FRs of the speakers before and after auto-EQ? What was in line in the signal chain? What are the calibration details? Where is the calibration data? Were the speakers placed in the exact spots? Were they optimized for directionality, toe-in, etc? Were both speakers facing the listeners? Are there peak hold graphs of each speaker playing the same scene? Is there THD test results? Are there measurements from each seat?

Tux and Erich,

Can you guys post specs, sizes, weights, pics, measurements, etc?

I don't mind keeping the debate in my thread as I don't see this thread lasting long. However, we need to keep it civil and not insulting. That never gets us nowhere. I mean copying and pasting threads is fine but the commentary behind it is all negative and setting up a verbal fight. Unfortunately like many GTG's there were no response curves or measurements to see if or why the differences. I already said I did not count the blind tests in my decision, in fact I said I would not make a decision based on the limited experiences. I also said the theater 10 did sound very good so that is a good thing. We played them at reference except the SEOS was not at reference. The uneq'd clip was short and it was not the same scenes from earlier and I would have loved to hear the Avatar scene again with them uneq'd.

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post #17 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 02:36 PM
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It's official. Nfraso doesn't have anything better to do than this. I thought he was into audio and stuff? He must of changed hobbies. That's too bad. In the meantime I'm gunna go enjoy my theater while he wastes his life away trying to prove Craig Chase wrong. They say doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is insanity. Might b true. I won't be posting anymore on this so called diy thread. We've tried to be civil and it's not working.

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i talked to the owner today. seems like a cool dude. he actually recommended the fusion sentinel kit by erich. he said his speakers wouldnt have the midbass impact that the sentinel kit would offer for the kind of music i listen to(DEATH-METAL). to me, most small businesses would really push for their products no matter what. this dude was pretty straight up. no bs. from what i gathered, these speakers are meant primarily for ht. no need for a center. good for music, better for ht. just my 0.2

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post #19 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 02:53 PM
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As Tux said before, he designed the Fusion-10 to be flat so that people could EQ it to taste easily.

I listened to a lot of speakers in the past few weeks and the Fusion-10 stood out to me as being designed flat with the high end being left up there as well. Tux said this makes it much easier for a system to EQ properly, and that does make sense. I thought it was great for movies. But I personally would dial back the highs a few decibels if I was listening to music for a while because I prefer a more laid back sound with music.

And because of that, for the life of me, I can't see how anyone can think the high end on that speaker is not there. I think I could peal the skin off my face with it turned up to higher levels.

Maybe if a room has a heck of a lot of acoustic treatment, or the people listening to the speakers don't hear as well up high, I'm not sure. For example, my dad loves running his speakers very hot and loud. To everyone else it's ear piercing after a few minutes......but his hearing isn't as good as ours. So speakers with way too much treble would sound a lot better to some people that need that boosted high end.

Either way, some people like Polk, others like Klipsch, JBL, Infinity, etc. It certainly doesn't bother me.


"It sounded like someone hit the loudness button."............maybe they did by mistake?
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post #20 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

As Tux said before, he designed the Fusion-10 to be flat so that people could EQ it to taste easily.

I listened to a lot of speakers in the past few weeks and the Fusion-10 stood out to me as being designed flat with the high end being left up there as well. Tux said this makes it much easier for a system to EQ properly, and that does make sense. I thought it was great for movies. But I personally would dial back the highs a few decibels if I was listening to music for a while because I prefer a more laid back sound with music.

And because of that, for the life of me, I can't see how anyone can think the high end on that speaker is not there. I think I could peal the skin off my face with it turned up to higher levels.

Maybe if a room has a heck of a lot of acoustic treatment, or the people listening to the speakers don't hear as well up high, I'm not sure. For example, my dad loves running his speakers very hot and loud. To everyone else it's ear piercing after a few minutes......but his hearing isn't as good as ours. So speakers with way too much treble would sound a lot better to some people that need that boosted high end.

Either way, some people like Polk, others like Klipsch, JBL, Infinity, etc. It certainly doesn't bother me.


"It sounded like someone hit the loudness button."............maybe they did by mistake?

The SEOS seemed fine, just played too low. Craig said they were run through Audyssey so I will chalk that up to Audyssey sucking for some reason. I don't like Audyssey on my speakers I had before. When I say laid back in my room I mean not forward like my DR's. They were not laid back at the GTG, they were played too low. Once the levels were better and the EQ'd turned off they seemed more alive than in my room. However, the clip was too short to hear them thoroughly. Why is this stuff too hard for some to grasp. Again, everyone has a right to their opinion, no? BTW, this is not directed at you Erich, you rock! If I did not have my DR's I would have SEOS with jbl 2226's, or if Chopshop lets me test his speakers maybe he never gets them back! BTW, everyone at the meet loved the waveguide, how can one not? I took out a waveguide to show everyone the bracing and crossover. I talked about how a deltalite 12 with DNA 360 could be a very nice upgrade. Another consideration was that Craig's room is big and we played them at reference(still thought the spl was too low for reference) and maybe they did not get loud due to compression but then when we listened to them without Audyssey and they were much louder so I threw that out the window. The whole point for Craig was to show that the theater 10 was a good speaker for the money, it is. Is it better than the SEOS, who knows. I know from that brief audition I liked things better on the SEOS and some things better on the theater 10, and that was with the SEOS at lower volumes. I am pretty sure I marked midbass and feel for speaker A and the rest for speaker B which all corresponds to loudness, dynamics, detail, and overall. I mean who does not like a clean loud movie, the theater 10 provided that. I know the SEOS can too!

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post #21 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I don't mind keeping the debate in my thread as I don't see this thread lasting long. However, we need to keep it civil and not insulting. That never gets us nowhere. I mean copying and pasting threads is fine but the commentary behind it is all negative and setting up a verbal fight. Unfortunately like many GTG's there were no response curves or measurements to see if or why the differences. I already said I did not count the blind tests in my decision, in fact I said I would not make a decision based on the limited experiences. I also said the theater 10 did sound very good so that is a good thing. We played them at reference except the SEOS was not at reference. The uneq'd clip was short and it was not the same scenes from earlier and I would have loved to hear the Avatar scene again with them uneq'd.

I respect your opinions and always have.

Sometimes a 'verbal fight' is what's required. CC does not use tact when anyone has called him out or disagreed with him. He once said that Ilkka was the biggest fraud he ever met on any forum and his style has not improved with age. It was solely his decision to insult and belittle, then delete and ban, not anyone else's. So, this is the blowback and not you or any of the other CC fan mail will change that.

What would be the civil thing to happen is if CC apologized and changed his childish behavior at his own forum regarding its members. biggrin.gif:D:D

Some of us want to get to the bottom of the disparaging remarks Chase has aimed at members of this forum who have given more effort to the cause than he ever could. It has come down to a specific case of a loudspeaker blind test. None of the pertinent details have been forthcoming. I disagree with the generalization about G2Gs. Archaea, madaeel, Huskeromaha, Desertdome, Brandonnash and many others have held compare G2Gs. They've included pics, graphs, SPL reading, lists of attendees, clips, scoring by attendees and much more.

Maybe the thread will be short. Certainly if you have zero data to present, then it will indeed be a short-lived thread. At the very least, the guys who've been slighted by the off-hand comments regarding their work here will have their say without being pi$$ed on by your buddy. Like I said, it is what it is and by no fault of any member in this forum.
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post #22 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I respect your opinions and always have.

Sometimes a 'verbal fight' is what's required. CC does not use tact when anyone has called him out or disagreed with him. He once said that Ilkka was the biggest fraud he ever met on any forum and his style has not improved with age. It was solely his decision to insult and belittle, then delete and ban, not anyone else's. So, this is the blowback and not you or any of the other CC fan mail will change that.

What would be the civil thing to happen is if CC apologized and changed his childish behavior at his own forum regarding its members. biggrin.gif:D:D

Some of us want to get to the bottom of the disparaging remarks Chase has aimed at members of this forum who have given more effort to the cause than he ever could. It has come down to a specific case of a loudspeaker blind test. None of the pertinent details have been forthcoming. I disagree with the generalization about G2Gs. Archaea, madaeel, Huskeromaha, Desertdome, Brandonnash and many others have held compare G2Gs. They've included pics, graphs, SPL reading, lists of attendees, clips, scoring by attendees and much more.

Maybe the thread will be short. Certainly if you have zero data to present, then it will indeed be a short-lived thread. At the very least, the guys who've been slighted by the off-hand comments regarding their work here will have their say without being pi$$ed on by your buddy. Like I said, it is what it is and by no fault of any member in this forum.

So this thread is really not about speakers but a retaliation for Craig's past? Is that even allowed? Is that even worthwhile? Most people that deal with Craig are on his own forum so anything that gets pulled over here gets recognized, most wouldn't care. My buddy? You see little comments like that starts crap. I get along with everyone unless they slap my face but if I deserved it then oh well. My first experiences with Craig were actually a disagreement and him yelling at me for not quoting him correctly. Not a very good first impression at all. I understand how he talks and pisses people off, mostly people like his own personality. My first experiences with Ethan(Adam's brother) were also negative in his eD thread. I met Ethan and Adam and they are cool! They still like to blow up subs with sine waves though! Adam has come to my house and he is coming again on the 13th! It should be fun.

I wanted graphs and such but this was not my GTG. I can't do it all. I just received my new mic in the mail and will measure the SEOS. You said this thread won't last long due to no data, correct, the starter has none. There was never any data. My thread was about how I was going to test them against the theater 10, that is all, my conclusion was inconclusive due to the lack data and time. So how did this all get out of hand? Oh yeah, this a revenge thread. Sorry, you are right, I have no place in a thread like this no matter who it is about. I have bad dealings with many people and you never see me keep posting negatives. Sorry, but stop this crap and get back to my thread and my IB, we need to get it to 3hz damn it! This is what this forum should be about.
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post #23 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 03:46 PM
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So this thread is really not about speakers but a retaliation for Craig's past? Is that even allowed? Is that even worthwhile? Most people that deal with Craig are on his own forum so anything that gets pulled over here gets recognized, most wouldn't care. My buddy? You see little comments like that starts crap. I get along with everyone unless they slap my face but if I deserved it then oh well. My first experiences with Craig were actually a disagreement and him yelling at me for not quoting him correctly. Not a very good first impression at all. I understand how he talks and pisses people off, mostly people like his own personality. My first experiences with Ethan(Adam's brother) were also negative in his eD thread. I met Ethan and Adam and they are cool! They still like to blow up subs with sine waves though! Adam has come to my house and he is coming again on the 13th! It should be fun.

I wanted graphs and such but this was not my GTG. I can't do it all. I just received my new mic in the mail and will measure the SEOS. You said this thread won't last long due to no data, correct, the starter has none. There was never any data. My thread was about how I was going to test them against the theater 10, that is all, my conclusion was inconclusive due to the lack data and time. So how did this all get out of hand? Oh yeah, this a revenge thread. Sorry, you are right, I have no place in a thread like this no matter who it is about. I have bad dealings with many people and you never see me keep posting negatives. Sorry, but stop this crap and get back to my thread and my IB, we need to get it to 3hz damn it! This is what this forum should be about.

This thread is about whatever the OP wants it to be about. You've had your say regarding his posts and the who, what, when, where and why of it. We get it. You don't have to justify your opinions or keep repeating the same opinions in different words. If you decide the thread's not worthwhile, then move along. What's so hard to grasp about that?

Getting back to the subject, I'm pretty sure someone who knows how to evaluate a $300 speaker will eventually provide the pertinent data. wink.gif
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post #24 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

So this thread is really not about speakers but a retaliation for Craig's past? Is that even allowed? Is that even worthwhile? Most people that deal with Craig are on his own forum so anything that gets pulled over here gets recognized, most wouldn't care. My buddy? You see little comments like that starts crap. I get along with everyone unless they slap my face but if I deserved it then oh well. My first experiences with Craig were actually a disagreement and him yelling at me for not quoting him correctly. Not a very good first impression at all. I understand how he talks and pisses people off, mostly people like his own personality. My first experiences with Ethan(Adam's brother) were also negative in his eD thread. I met Ethan and Adam and they are cool! They still like to blow up subs with sine waves though! Adam has come to my house and he is coming again on the 13th! It should be fun.

I wanted graphs and such but this was not my GTG. I can't do it all. I just received my new mic in the mail and will measure the SEOS. You said this thread won't last long due to no data, correct, the starter has none. There was never any data. My thread was about how I was going to test them against the theater 10, that is all, my conclusion was inconclusive due to the lack data and time. So how did this all get out of hand? Oh yeah, this a revenge thread. Sorry, you are right, I have no place in a thread like this no matter who it is about. I have bad dealings with many people and you never see me keep posting negatives. Sorry, but stop this crap and get back to my thread and my IB, we need to get it to 3hz damn it! This is what this forum should be about.

This thread is about whatever the OP wants it to be about. You've had your say regarding his posts and the who, what, when, where and why of it. We get it. You don't have to justify your opinions or keep repeating the same opinions in different words. If you decide the thread's not worthwhile, then move along. What's so hard to grasp about that?

Getting back to the subject, I'm pretty sure someone who knows how to evaluate a $300 speaker will eventually provide the pertinent data. wink.gif

Good idea bossobass. I'd really appreciate you purchasing them and testing them yourself  so we can put an end to this either way.

 thanks...

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post #25 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 03:56 PM
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Craig says the 25 minute break between auditions made for the apparent volume difference. He claims this happens at concerts with an intermission.

Has anyone else experienced what he's talking about? Maybe its just never happened to me.

No. It's an absurd insinuation.

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Dave, info on the speaker is here: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=68.msg647#msg647

Thanks for the link.

So, it's listed as 98dB sensitive and feeding it 128W should lead to 120dB @ 1M and reference level @ 4M with headroom, yeah? The size of the room is irrelevant. What matters is the distance to the LP. Do you or does anyone know what the distance was to the seats and/or what was being used for power?
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post #26 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 04:05 PM
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i talked to the owner today. seems like a cool dude. he actually recommended the fusion sentinel kit by erich. he said his speakers wouldnt have the midbass impact that the sentinel kit would offer for the kind of music i listen to(DEATH-METAL). to me, most small businesses would really push for their products no matter what. this dude was pretty straight up. no bs. from what i gathered, these speakers are meant primarily for ht. no need for a center. good for music, better for ht. just my 0.2

I'm sure your post in this thread will go unrecognized  or you will be chastised for saying Craig is a cool dude. Either way, good for you for calling and asking questions instead on relying on this thread for the info.

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post #27 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 04:14 PM
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I'm sure your post in this thread will go unrecognized  or you will be chastised for saying Craig is a cool dude. Either way, good for you for calling and asking questions instead on relying on this thread for the info.

Not taking sides here as I have never heard either of the "contestants,'" but calling and asking questions of the only person who has anything to gain in all this could hardly be considered unbiased. No offence meant---just sayin.
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post #28 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 04:21 PM
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1) I think it's highly questionable for a party with a vested interest in the results to conduct the test

2) Since when can pre-calibrated settings be altered at the request of the listeners?

Noah
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post #29 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 04:38 PM
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1) I think it's highly questionable for a party with a vested interest in the results to conduct the test

2) Since when can pre-calibrated settings be altered at the request of the listeners?

True DAT!!
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post #30 of 280 Old 11-25-2013, 04:47 PM
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I would never buy a speaker from one review or one gtg. Its one event. If chase feels it product is strong then go to events like seaton , jtr , and other commercial companies do.
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