Bossobass and Ultra Low Frequencies... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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On a recent business trip to Charlotte, NC I had the privilege to visit long time AVS Forum member Dave, aka bossobass. Dave is someone that I have never met but have been following his insightful posts for the better part of three years. I had a decent system in my dedicated space but I could find the limits easily…I was searching for the answers to the many questions that get tossed around the subwoofer forum.

I am going to split this review – more like an experience cool.gif – into four posts. This post is about the man behind bossobass, the second post will be about his impressive theater room, the third post will have my thoughts and the fourth post will contain useful links.

I was a little intimidated in even approaching Dave about a visit. He didn’t know me at all and he would have to open up his home to me. I figured over the last 12 years, he had to have countless requests to visit and was finished with that part of the hobby. To my delight, he accepted my inquiry and a day & time was set-up.

I was met at the door by Matt (his nephew) and was directed to the kitchen to meet Dave. The three of us talked for several hours and I could have gone on even longer! Dave is a wonderful resource on subwoofers and the systems needed to meet the spec of 3Hz to 120Hz reproduction. I enjoyed listening to his journey and how through diligent research, he arrived at his current system for full bandwidth reproduction.

Dave is truly an artist and a highly creative person along with a scientific mind and the desire to find out what is possible. I admire his “waste not” approach to design and the noble goal of building things to last and pass down to the next generation.

I want to thank you for the incredible kindness that you showed my wife and me. You went out of your way to make us both feel very welcome, answered all of our questions and gave us a demo that will never be forgotten!

Southern Hospitality – indeed!! smile.gif
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post #2 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Dave’s dedicated, 3500cf theater room space is located on the second floor and below is the view as you reach the top of the steps:





The room is so inviting and warm and then my eyes settled on the dual stacked Raptors in the front left corner…that is (4) 15” long throw subs taking up hardly any space! My wife didn’t even notice the subs at first glance! How is that for WAF?





Another view of the Raptor ½ stack:





Here are some more pictures:








Here is the view looking from the front of the room:





Side view and second row riser:





The "brains" as well as the power behind the system:





My wife did notice the very cool flowerpot on top of the Blackbird subs:


AppleMark


Dave was in the middle of some changes/tweaks to his set-up. The opposite corner (sounds like a prize fight!) had dual stack Blackbird subs (the original prototypes!).

Of course the measurement rig is located in room and at the ready…






Please continue on to the next post to read my thoughts...smile.gif
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post #3 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Let the games begin! I sat in the primary listening position and Dave started the ULF demos. Dave just picked up ALVH and ran a couple of scenes to get me settled in:








I was so impressed with how clean and clear everything sounded…I even asked if we were listening at reference level. I was not interested in watching this movie but I will be looking for a Black Friday deal to add this to my collection. There is so much energy in the room and I am not watching a movie but in it! When I had (4) Outlaw ported 12” subs, they took up about the same amount of space as this system with (8) 15” subs. WOW, so much energy from such a small footprint!


Now on to scenes I know – Star Trek 2009:





This is a great scene to demo with the ability to switch on different HP filters…does ULF matter? Hell YES they do!! The above scene went from a good bass demo but not really noteworthy especially in a film with several incredible demo scenes. Turn off the HP filter and let it rip…I felt weightless…the suspended floor was moving to the on screen action and I felt like I was dropping like on the first big hill of a roller coaster…I was on the Enterprise!! cool.gif


Dave began to smile…cause he knew what was next:





Incredible Hulk, one of the best, if not the best, ULF scene of all time. I have seen this clip at least 100 times and up to now, dominguez1 gave me the best representation. Sorry, dom – this was EPIC. Hair stood up on my arms, I could hear the window behind the TV flex, and I could feel the floor move. This completely put me in the movie and I felt like I was taking the body shots….waves and waves of energy poured over me. eek.gif

Now it is time for dinner (best steak EVER Matt, Thank you!!). I descend the stairs on the way back to the kitchen and I felt sick. tongue.gif There was a sensation of lightheadedness and the energy of that scene is still resonating in my body. I sat down at the table and I am shaking. The only time I have ever felt like this was after running fairly high-level sine waves for 20 minutes or so.

Does content to 3Hz matter? YES.


You know what they say: “pictures or it didn’t happen”:









Thank you so much Dave! I am inspired to take my system forward. I am in awe that you have gone before me and have shared your research so willingly to all of us here at AVS Forum. When I finish the upgrade to my theater room, I would like to invite you and your wife to Cincinnati to christen the new system!! smile.gif
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post #4 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Below is a collection of good information regarding Dave's research and other useful links: smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I'm stuck on the question, how low is low? What is realistic and what are bragging rights? There's nothing wrong with bragging rights but I'm totally in the dark regarding the benefit of a 10Hz system vs a 12.5Hz or 16Hz, reference capable system.

At reference, how low do we need to go so we're not missing "important" content? Where does the sonic line start to get fuzzy?

Here is Dave's reply:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1488059/your-home-theater-ulf-score/700_100#post_23990920

Here is Dave's recipe for ULF reproduction:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1477487/if-you-needed-4-hz-in-room-but-could-pick-the-room-how-would-you/0_100#post_23586323

Here is Dave's very informative web-site:

http://www.bossobass.com

Here is pdominguez1's awesome thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1488059/your-home-theater-ulf-score/0_100#post_23676011
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post #5 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 11:02 AM
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Awesome awesome how you detailed your visit with great pics to boot. You are lucky, that sounds like quite the experience!
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post #6 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 11:15 AM
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Hey! Great writeup. Sounds like you had some fun over at Dave's house getting the full bandwidth bass treatment. biggrin.gif

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #7 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 12:04 PM
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That is a beautiful room for sure! Wow! Is that a F.R.O.G.?

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post #8 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 12:32 PM
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I'm sure Dave's system sound awesome but, one thing to consider is floor joists and concrete floor. Big difference in tactile feel. I'm not sure if pdominguez1's system is on a concrete floor or not. I have my system on the first floor now until my Home Theater bunker in the basement is finished. I have a feeling I'm going to be a little disappointed in the tactile sensation when I move from floor joist to concrete. I'll have to get more subs. smile.gif

Great write up!
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post #9 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 12:38 PM
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Looks nice! I still think Bosso's subs are the best looking! I think this is the first time I have seen a dedicated room with screen, no? Maybe I just forgot which is most likely.

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post #10 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 01:43 PM
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Hey Larry,

I just wanted to say what a pleasure it was meeting you and the wife. As they say, it's always cool to put a face to a screen name. Years ago, I traveled around the country to various G2Gs and have met lots of great folks, but I especially enjoyed your visit. I had no idea how much research you've done and that you'd upgraded your system and plan to double it soon. You 8X18"+ guys are beginning to give me a complex. biggrin.gif

The 2nd round, when the wife showed up, I sat in the back row. The reactions from guests is usually better than the movie and I wish I had yours on film. As I explained, the system isn't completed as you saw it, in fact, I recently sold off everything I had as part of the up fit. The wife just got tired of a dozen or so subs lying all over the room, being switched in and out as tests were being done with various placements and hardware. She said no up fit unless you clear this stuff out! So, I have the original Blackbird one-off protos on one side and the original one-off Raptors on the other side, both fed by amps I just recently got to test.

I'm really interested in your thoughts on the with/without ULF of the same scene. I picked a scene from Star Trek that no one has included as a demo, probably because the strong ULF pulses never make it into most rooms. I've run this test many times in the past with other, more pronounced content (like WOTW, HTTYD, etc), but I wanted a bit more subtle example to see if you got what every listener to date has perceived when shown the difference.

Anyway, thanks so much for the too-kind words and follow-up e-mail. You and your wife are great company and I look forward to reading the progress reports here on your sub upgrades. I'd love to head up there to Cincy and check it out when you're finished. cool.gif
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post #11 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 01:54 PM
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I am assuming these systems are for sale?

Is there a price list? They look expensive.
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post #12 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MX48 View Post

I am assuming these systems are for sale?

Is there a price list? They look expensive.

http://www.bossobass.com/Bossobass.com/Home.html

Trying to enjoy the simple things in life.

 

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post #13 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 02:51 PM
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What freq range is left when referring to the "ULF off" comparisons?

Noah
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post #14 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 03:13 PM
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Now that is a trip I would like to take.
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post #15 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 03:16 PM
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I didn't see any price list or how to order, altho I assume that you would use the contact form and go from there.
Or did I miss something.
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post #16 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 03:19 PM
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Sounds like a great experience with a very knowledgeable guy! Always cool when members can get together for some fun.
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post #17 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

What freq range is left when referring to the "ULF off" comparisons?

In this case, -3dB @ 18 Hz, 4th order roll off, less room gain. Equivalent to an 18 Hz tuned ported sub, less the spike in THD below tune.
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post #18 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Awesome awesome how you detailed your visit with great pics to boot. You are lucky, that sounds like quite the experience!

Thanks gpmbc...

I am lucky to have this experience and will be forever grateful to Dave...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Hey! Great writeup. Sounds like you had some fun over at Dave's house getting the full bandwidth bass treatment. biggrin.gif

Thanks Scott...

I really want you to know how much I have enjoyed your posts over the years...cool.gif
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post #19 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

I'm sure Dave's system sound awesome but, one thing to consider is floor joists and concrete floor. Big difference in tactile feel.

I am on a concrete floor (but not in a basement) as well and my initial impression is that the suspended floor is helping in the tactile experience...maybe Dave can shed some light.

Quote:
I'm not sure if pdominguez1's system is on a concrete floor or not.

dom's theater room is in the basement and is on a concrete floor and IIRC, three concrete walls.

Quote:
I have my system on the first floor now until my Home Theater bunker in the basement is finished. I have a feeling I'm going to be a little disappointed in the tactile sensation when I move from floor joist to concrete. I'll have to get more subs. smile.gif

I think you might be a bit disappointed...I would love to hear your thoughts after you complete your bunker....more subs are good though! smile.gif

Quote:
Great write up!

Thanks!!
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post #20 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Looks nice! I still think Bosso's subs are the best looking! I think this is the first time I have seen a dedicated room with screen, no? Maybe I just forgot which is most likely.

I agree...the subs are gorgeous.

No projector/screen....just a HUGE DLP rear projection TV. I have a smaller version at my house and love the picture...
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post #21 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I just wanted to say what a pleasure it was meeting you and the wife. As they say, it's always cool to put a face to a screen name. Years ago, I traveled around the country to various G2Gs and have met lots of great folks, but I especially enjoyed your visit. I had no idea how much research you've done and that you'd upgraded your system and plan to double it soon. You 8X18"+ guys are beginning to give me a complex. biggrin.gif

Thanks Dave...smile.gif

Quote:
I picked a scene from Star Trek that no one has included as a demo, probably because the strong ULF pulses never make it into most rooms. I've run this test many times in the past with other, more pronounced content (like WOTW, HTTYD, etc), but I wanted a bit more subtle example to see if you got what every listener to date has perceived when shown the difference.


This scene was a complete eye opener to me. I could not believe the difference between the HP filters...the scene completely changes with full BW reproduction.

Quote:
Anyway, thanks so much for the too-kind words and follow-up e-mail. You and your wife are great company and I look forward to reading the progress reports here on your sub upgrades. I'd love to head up there to Cincy and check it out when you're finished. cool.gif

You are more than welcome! I look forward to hosting you here in Cincinnati...cool.gif
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post #22 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Sounds like a great experience with a very knowledgeable guy! Always cool when members can get together for some fun.

Hi Chop, thanks for reading the thread...smile.gif

I have been following your build thread....great work!!
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post #23 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 06:01 PM
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nice write up of the experience!

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #24 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 06:18 PM
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lol, loving that flowerpot! Great for botanical presentation and hard drive cleaning.
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post #25 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

Dave began to smile…cause he knew what was next:





Incredible Hulk, one of the best, if not the best, ULF scene of all time. I have seen this clip at least 100 times and up to now, pdominguez1 gave me the best representation. Sorry, dom – this was EPIC. Hair stood up on my arms, I could hear the window behind the TV flex, and I could feel the floor move. This completely put me in the movie and I felt like I was taking the body shots….waves and waves of energy poured over me. eek.gif

Now it is time for dinner (best steak EVER Matt, Thank you!!). I descend the stairs on the way back to the kitchen and I felt sick. tongue.gif There was a sensation of lightheadedness and the energy of that scene is still resonating in my body. I sat down at the table and I am shaking. The only time I have ever felt like this was after running fairly high-level sine waves for 20 minutes or so.

Does content to 3Hz matter? YES.
 

Damn...dethroned. The worst part about it all, is I thought my subwoofage journey was done for a while...well, at least I was able to avoid upgradeitus for a little bit!

 

(BTW, it's dominguez1...just in case pdominguez1 ever pops up on AVS :D)

 

Great writeup...but pales in comparison to how you explained it to me in person. I see a road trip in the future...bosso willing of course. :cool:

 

Bosso, great setup. Absolutely love your subs.  

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post #26 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

I'm sure Dave's system sound awesome but, one thing to consider is floor joists and concrete floor. Big difference in tactile feel. I'm not sure if pdominguez1's system is on a concrete floor or not. I have my system on the first floor now until my Home Theater bunker in the basement is finished. I have a feeling I'm going to be a little disappointed in the tactile sensation when I move from floor joist to concrete. I'll have to get more subs. smile.gif

Great write up!

Yup concrete...but, I think I can hold my own in the tactile feeling 'wobble effect' even on concrete. Maybe laugsbach can comment...

 

I just have up my game now to achieve that 'hair standing up' and 'throw up' effect. :D

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post #27 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

I am on a concrete floor (but not in a basement) as well and my initial impression is that the suspended floor is helping in the tactile experience...maybe Dave can shed some light.

It's a tradeoff.

There's no doubt that the floor (and ceiling and walls) physically react to the ULF pressure waves. Consider that the subs are dual-opposed, so that they don't in any way jump up and down. Consider also that they are in corners, where the structural integrity of the floor is highest (as opposed to the middle of the floor where the most deflection would occur). Then, consider that the room is on a 2"x10" @ 10" OC structure, supported in the center by a sandwiched quad-LVL beam and the entire floor system is 24'X27'…

Then that pressure wave is moving the entire floor system all by itself, thus, the tactile feel.

OTOH, concrete construction has up to 20 times less transmission loss. Here's a case in point. A while back I put in a pretty decent HT for a friend in her basement, which I had completely remodeled some years ago, so I already had the scaled drawings and construction details. 2 of the walls are concrete with studs, insulation, sheetrock and panelling over them. The floor is also a poured slab. The room is close to 2900 cubes with a 4' doorway that's open to the rest of the basement floor, an approx additional 5800 cubes.

I put a small dual-opposed 15" sub signal shaping through a Marchand Bassis and powered by an American Audio big iron amp. I set the Bassis according to the close mic and standard room gain profile, then measured the room before any tweaks, smoothing EQ or level cal.

I saved that measurement and have overlaid it onto a graph that has various subs I've built in various configs in various placements, all in my HT space:



Using the same sig shaping boost pattern I use in my own room, she gets +10dB more return in single digits than I do.

Now, that can be overcome with multiples, but if you look at the original measurement, that single digit peak was 103dBSPL. With a single 2X15" sub. cool.gif

So, that's the tradeoff. IMHO, the ultimate coup is to build your HT in a basement, but on a suspended wood frame floor. That way you get the benefit of far less TL with the tactile effect.
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post #28 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Damn...dethroned. The worst part about it all, is I thought my subwoofage journey was done for a while...well, at least I was able to avoid upgradeitus for a little bit!

(BTW, it's dominguez1...just in case pdominguez1 ever pops up on AVS biggrin.gif )

Great writeup...but pales in comparison to how you explained it to me in person. I see a road trip in the future...bosso willing of course. cool.gif

Bosso, great setup. Absolutely love your subs.  

Any time, Dom. Larry will co-sign my thoughts on your great posts and of your forum personality in general.

Don't feel dethroned at all. You guys outgun the heck outta me.

The secret's in the sauce. tongue.gif
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post #29 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Damn...dethroned. The worst part about it all, is I thought my subwoofage journey was done for a while...

Never...tongue.gif

Quote:
(BTW, it's dominguez1...just in case pdominguez1 ever pops up on AVS biggrin.gif )

Fixed..redface.gif
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post #30 of 75 Old 11-26-2013, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I see a road trip in the future...bosso willing of course. cool.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Any time, Dom. Larry will co-sign my thoughts on your great posts and of your forum personality in general.

Dom is a great guy and I agree with him on a road trip...smile.gif
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