DIYSG flat pack 4 cu ft 12" Ultimax sub ported box build, $686 actual - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 51 Old 12-20-2013, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

doublewing11 - so your avatar is some sports playbook page??


Looking fwd to seeing your 4 UM-18's build and usage - I thought those out of stock till Feb-2014?? it's incredible the options available to the DIY community.

Avatar is a play right out of my playbook.....................36 Pitch, which is an off-tackle play similar to counter trey the Redskins used in the 80's. Formation is a hybrid between Delaware Wing-T and I formation. I call it Fly I which some call Doublewing............ie. my Forum name. Football has been a HUGE part of my life........ie. college and my 25+ years of coaching! wink.gif

Yes, I have to wait until Feb to receive drivers...............but am looking for alternatives ie. UXL-18 or similar. I pre-ordered 4 UM-18's, but can still cancel order if I need to.

BTW, do you plan to use screws in sub build? Just using glue scares me................figured I'd use Kreg jig along with glue just like I used on building columns in my theater.

Just glue and clamps, absolutely no need for screws at all.
Some have used a brad nail here/there to hold a piece in place if they lacked enough clamps.
But the glue/wood bond provides the joints strength.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1446659/going-multi-sub-adding-diy-18-15-sub-to-4x15-ib-line-array-both-via-diy-sound-group-flatpack/60#post_23106450
Quote:
Just doing some web 101 on wood glue joints:
A easy, simple read.
My take: Liberally spread the glue, and clamping is a must, even for these CNC flat packs.
For seasoned vet of sub building the below is probably obvious.
However the people buying CNC flat packs may not know this stuff.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Glue_Joint_Failure.html
Quote:
Glue Joint Failure
Dr. Gene Wengert delves into one of the primary problem areas affecting furniture manufacturers: glue joints. 1998.

by Professor Gene Wengert

Editors note: The following article is an excerpt from the book "The Wood Doctors Rx", by Gene Wengert, Professor and Extension Specialist in Wood processing Department of Forestry, University of Wisconsin-Madison.

One of the major areas in furniture manufacturing that causes problems is gluing - edge gluing, laminating, and veneering. There are at least a hundred items that could be wrong when a glue joint is below par, ranging from an incorrect adhesive formulation to an excessive cure time because employees were on coffee break. Moreover, as a general rule, a gluing problem is frequently a result of several factors that by themselves are no problem but when combined add up to trouble. A manager or supervisor who must troubleshoot an adhesive failure is therefore faced with many possible causes for the failure. The following four sections are presented to provide an understanding of glue joint failure of what is needed for proper adhesion and also to provide a few clues on what could be wrong.

Anatomy
There are five "links" in any glue joint (Figure 42-1) and the strength of the joint is the strength of the weakest of these five links.

Link 1
The middle link is the strength of the glue itself. If the proper adhesive has been chosen and if it has been handled correctly (stored at the right temperature, not too old, correct catalyst added, etc.) then this link is very strong, stronger than the wood.

Links 2 and 3
The next links on either side of the middle link are most often the cause of glueline failure. Weakness results because the adhesive, for one reason or another, cannot attach itself to the wood.

Links 4 and 5
These links represent the strength of the surface of the wood. It is possible through machining or sanding to damage the wood surfaces so that they are not so strong as necessary. A recent study by the U.S. Forest Products Laboratory for example has shown that abrasive planing damages surface fibers more than knife planing, causing possible problems for joints in exterior exposures.

Stages in Formation
When a poor glue joint is examined closely, often it is possible to see what went wrong in formation of the bond and the exact problem can be identified by understanding the five necessary stages in forming a good glue bond.

Stage 1
The adhesive, after application to a wood face, must flow to form a fairly smooth, continuous film. If the adhesive doesn't flow, marks from the spreading pattern will usually be visible. The adhesive won't flow if it's too thick (possibly because it's too cold), if the wood's too hot or too cold, if the wood's surface is dirty, or if there isn't enough adhesive.

Stage 2
The adhesive must transfer to the opposite, mating surface. This requires pressure and sufficient adhesive. The adhesive must also be able to flow and cannot have begun to set and harden.

Usually a failure of Stage 2 will be evidenced by having the adhesive only on one side of a broken joint. Lack of sufficient pressure and precuring are common causes. In turn, often caused by excessive assembly time or too dry wood. Insufficient adhesive can be a cause as well. Often the lack of pressure is a result of "non-flat" surfaces.

Stage 3
With the application of pressure, the adhesive penetrates the surface's nooks and crannies. This action provides mechanical strength for the bond.

Such mechanical strength provides shear resistance, but has little tensile (pulling apart) strength. As with Stage 2, pressure (as well as the other items mentioned) is important.

Stage 4
Good glue joints are characterized by good molecular bonds between the wood's and adhesive's molecules. For this bonding to occur, the wood and adhesive must be in intimate contact. However, sometimes the wood's surface is contaminated or is chemically unable to bond. This is called a " nonwetting" surface. (Imagine trying to glue two pieces of wood that have oil on their surfaces.)

Stage 5
The final stage is the solidifying of the adhesive. Failure to solidify may be caused by too cold a temperature, pH problems, or adhesive/catalyst problems. The rate of solidifying of a PVA is influenced by the wood's moisture content (the drier, the faster) and by temperature (the hotter, the faster).

Technical Nomenclature
The nomenclature for failures of the five stages is rather straight forward:

- Bonded joint: No failure; it's what we want.
- Starved joint: Insufficient adhesive in Stage 1, 2, 3 or 4 results from low spread rate, too much pressure squeezing all the adhesive out, or too much penetration into porous surface. This latter condition results in bleed through with thin veneers.
- Pre-cured joint: The adhesive reached Stage 5 before completing all of the earlier stages.
- Unanchored joint: Stage 3 was successful but not Stage 4.
- Undercured joint: Stage 5 did not occur; adhesive may still be tacky.

Diagnostic Appearance
As a final clue, the appearance of the glue line may identify the problem:

- Foamy or air bubbly. Air bubbles are trapped in adhesive because it was setting up too rapidly or because of bubbles in the adhesive itself.
- Grainy or sandy. The adhesive doesn't adhere to itself (old glue, error in formulation), or lumber that is too dry withdraws water before all five stages are completed (apply pressure faster, use more adhesive, etc.).
- Separated. The resin filters into the wood leaving filler and/or extender on the surface. Check catalyst and assembly time.
- Tacky. See Undercured joint in the previous section.
- Fuzzy. The joint appears covered with wood fibers (like peach fuzz). Evidence of failure of Links 4 or 5, a damaged wood surface, as mentioned earlier.
- Skipped or intermittent. The closeness required for good bonding is missing.
- Burned. (only in Radio Frequency units.) Indicates too much adhesive in one spot or wet lumber.

Professor Gene Wengert is Extension Specialist in Wood Processing at the Department of Forestry, University of Wisconsin-Madison
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

AFA alternatives, Somebody had 4 SI18HT D4s in the classifieds for $200 each shipped, thats a good deal imo.

Good drivers just dont get crazy with the power on em....
Agree that's a pretty fair price, why are they selling a brand new driver, 4 of them?

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post #32 of 51 Old 12-20-2013, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post



Agree that's a pretty fair price, why are they selling a brand new driver, 4 of them?

Probably to get some money. tongue.gif
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post #33 of 51 Old 12-20-2013, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post



Agree that's a pretty fair price, why are they selling a brand new driver, 4 of them?

Probably to get some money. tongue.gif

For a friend....
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1506344/stereo-integrity-ht-18-sub-woofer-d4-qty-4
Quote:
Bought four of these for my HT. They were never used/installed. Reason for selling is a friend is having a pretty rough year and going to take the proceeds from these to give him a better holiday season.

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post #34 of 51 Old 12-20-2013, 03:16 PM
 
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Seriously cost $652 all said and done for the ultimax start to finish?

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post #35 of 51 Old 12-20-2013, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Seriously cost $652 all said and done for the ultimax start to finish?
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

Yes - and since I got the iNuke 3000DSP if I decide to add a 2nd exact one no need to buy another amp, so total cost of 2 is $652 + $412 = $1,064. Add some misc for primer/paint/mtg hardware and you are looking at $1.1k for 2 subs.

reference 3rd post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

reserved for Materials bought and mods made:

Total running cost of project: $652
$200 driver + $140 flat pack + $240 amp + $40 ports + $12 fan mod + $10 magnetic grill guides + $6 binding post cup +$4 Neutrik NL4FX Speakon connector

-12" ultimax driver; $179.90 + shipping http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-um12-22-12-ultimax-dvc-subwoofer-2-ohms-per-coil--295-512
-flat pack; $120 +$21 shipping http://www.diysoundgroup.com/subwoofer-flatpacks-2/4-ported-sub-flat-pack.html
-amp w/eq; iNuke 3000 for $240 http://www.avsforum.com/t/1496782/ep4000-for-279#post_23888588
-fan mod; $12 w/free shipping @ Amazon - will do same as here http://www.avsforum.com/t/1359039/behringer-inuke-nu3000-first-impressions-i-need-replacement-fan-suggestions/150#post_23408079
however use this connector suggested by arny, UY Connector Yellow 2-Wire IDC Splice 100 Pack

-precision ports and other
- http://www.avsforum.com/t/1493493/anyone-know-what-material-precision-ports-are-made-from#post_24012002
-stuffing for box; still need to buy
-glue and paint; have leftover from other build; plan is Titebond II for glue, and clear caulk to seal all inside seams
Via Lowes gift cards, have Zinsser Bulls Eye Water Base Interior Primer had them tint it grey, then flat black Valspar Ultra , the Lowe's paint guy said its a very durable paint, from the spec sheet
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Thick, 1 coat coverage
Stain-resistant and scrubbable

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post #36 of 51 Old 12-21-2013, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Progress Saturday Dec-21-2013;

Magnet for front grill installed;
Decide location and drill 4 holes ............... Mark magnet polarity for same install, use non-metallic tools
Magnet%2520layout%25201.JPG . Magnet%2520marking%2520non-metallic%2520tools%25203.JPG

tap in with plastic mallet, then wood dowel, then epoxy, let dry .............. then wood filler for flush, bring to garage, sand with 150 grit
Epoxy%2520in%25204.JPG . Wood%2520filler%2520applied%25205.JPG

Now that it's "upside down", I kinda like the look better with the 2 ports on top not bottom....hmmmm, who decided top/bottom anyway?
Front%2520baffle%2520magnet%2520sanded1.JPG

Wood filler sanded .................. I should have put wood filler on that seem, it showed thru the primer, I'll fix that before final coat
wood%2520filler%2520LH%2520side.JPG . RH%2520ISO%25203.JPG

rear view .......................now painted
Back%2520ISO.jpg . LH%2520ISO%2520painted.JPG

Painted (this shows w/o flash white balance is off)....... I'll prime the speaker/port inside portion tomorrow when I flip the box over and paint the top.
Front%2520painted.JPG . RH%2520ISO%2520painted.JPG

Getting closer to install of ports and driver biggrin.gif

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post #37 of 51 Old 12-21-2013, 10:21 PM
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Ooking real nice.

Really like your cabinets and interior design work. What? do you haul that thing in for picture time?. tongue.gif

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post #38 of 51 Old 12-21-2013, 11:26 PM
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I like the ports on top too. Looks like the faces your guests will have when you crank it up, and again when you tell them you built it yourself biggrin.gif
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post #39 of 51 Old 12-22-2013, 03:53 AM
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What are you using for the wood filler? Don't mean to high-jack, but, OT, I am getting ready to refinish my kitchen cabinets and install new doors, drawers, and countertops and I want to fill in the holes left by the door hinges in the front cabinet facing.

Right now the cabinets are stained a really dark color, and I plan to sand them down and then primer-sand-primer-base coat-sand-base coat then put a final coat of white oil based paint.

Never done this before, so any tips on which wood filler to use, or any other general suggestions on how to properly refinish old-stained cabinets would be terrific!
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post #40 of 51 Old 12-22-2013, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Progress Saturday Dec-21-2013;

Magnet for front grill installed;
Decide location and drill 4 holes ............... Mark magnet polarity for same install, use non-metallic tools
Magnet%2520layout%25201.JPG . Magnet%2520marking%2520non-metallic%2520tools%25203.JPG

tap in with plastic mallet, then wood dowel, then epoxy, let dry .............. then wood filler for flush, bring to garage, sand with 150 grit
Epoxy%2520in%25204.JPG . Wood%2520filler%2520applied%25205.JPG

Now that it's "upside down", I kinda like the look better with the 2 ports on top not bottom....hmmmm, who decided top/bottom anyway?
Front%2520baffle%2520magnet%2520sanded1.JPG

Wood filler sanded .................. I should have put wood filler on that seem, it showed thru the primer, I'll fix that before final coat
wood%2520filler%2520LH%2520side.JPG . RH%2520ISO%25203.JPG

rear view .......................now painted
Back%2520ISO.jpg . LH%2520ISO%2520painted.JPG

Painted (this shows w/o flash white balance is off)....... I'll prime the speaker/port inside portion tomorrow when I flip the box over and paint the top.
Front%2520painted.JPG . RH%2520ISO%2520painted.JPG

Getting closer to install of ports and driver biggrin.gif

Very nice work. I dont even see the seams.

Make sure you paint the driver cutouts too. This makes cracks between drivers less noticeable and allows whatever you use to seal drivers to have a uniform surface for adhesion.

+1
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post #41 of 51 Old 12-22-2013, 02:00 PM
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Really nice work! Looking good!

...that is as long as you don't get sued by Disney for copyright infringement!tongue.gif

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post #42 of 51 Old 12-22-2013, 02:55 PM
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...that is as long as you don't get sued by Disney for copyright infringement! tongue.gif

Lol.. I said huh confused.gif and then noticed pronto after looking at the pic smile.gif

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post #43 of 51 Old 12-22-2013, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Ooking real nice.

Really like your cabinets and interior design work. What? do you haul that thing in for picture time?. tongue.gif
Thx - garage for sanding - so much dust, then basement is build and paint area.
Up/Down a flight of stairs, as too much snow to go thru the walk-out french doors.
In summer builds I've built in the basement area, and sanded just outside the walk-out.
Heck - I've sanded outside there also on cold 20's deg f as long as no rain, but we've been slammed with this;
Power lines down all over, this is my road ................... and 1/4" + of ice coverage
* .



Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

What are you using for the wood filler? Don't mean to high-jack, but, OT, I am getting ready to refinish my kitchen cabinets and install new doors, drawers, and countertops and I want to fill in the holes left by the door hinges in the front cabinet facing.
Right now the cabinets are stained a really dark color, and I plan to sand them down and then primer-sand-primer-base coat-sand-base coat then put a final coat of white oil based paint.
Never done this before, so any tips on which wood filler to use, or any other general suggestions on how to properly refinish old-stained cabinets would be terrific!
Marty I'm using this from Home Depot. It has filled w/o crack or shrink. It has a very slight gritty application feel - hardly there, not satin smooth, that's because it does have wood fiber in it. I've used it for 3 subs now, and have zero issues/concerns.
I sand via palm sander with medium 100 and then fine 150 grit, then prime.
>>Key is really only apply as much as you need, think "thin to win, thick to lick"....if you put on too thick then you just end up sanding more away and that's just dust in the air and precious time wasted
woodfiller%2520pro%25201.JPG . woodfiller%2520pro%2520inside%25202.JPG
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Progress Saturday Dec-21-2013;

Wood filler sanded .................. I should have put wood filler on that seem, it showed thru the primer, I'll fix that before final coat
wood%2520filler%2520LH%2520side.JPG . RH%2520ISO%25203.JPG

rear view .......................now painted
Back%2520ISO.jpg . LH%2520ISO%2520painted.JPG

Painted (this shows w/o flash white balance is off)....... I'll prime the speaker/port inside portion tomorrow when I flip the box over and paint the top.
Front%2520painted.JPG . RH%2520ISO%2520painted.JPG

Getting closer to install of ports and driver biggrin.gif

Very nice work. I dont even see the seams.

Make sure you paint the driver cutouts too. This makes cracks between drivers less noticeable and allows whatever you use to seal drivers to have a uniform surface for adhesion.

+1
Excellent points, prime and paint the cutouts so you cannot see bare MDF behind them..
I knew it was being flipped over and the small brush was in another area, I primed the cut-outs this morning along with the top.
sub%2520painted%2520LH%2520Iso.JPG . sub%2520painted%2520Frt.JPG
Quote:
Originally Posted by antisuck View Post

I like the ports on top too. Looks like the faces your guests will have when you crank it up, and again when you tell them you built it yourself biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Really nice work! Looking good!

...that is as long as you don't get sued by Disney for copyright infringement!tongue.gif
Looking at these Mickey Mouse Head online that's exactly what it looks like when "upside down".


maybe I'll call this the "Might Mouse" build biggrin.gif


Making progress, I'm working 1/2 day tomorrow, so before work I'll be putting the black on!
Things to do:
-apply black paint (Mon 12/23 am and pm)
-amp fan mod (Tues 12/24 am), set 20hz HPF on amp
-install binding post - solder wire first, wire and install speaker/ports (Thur 12/26)
-install in family room (Fri 12/27), just re-run Audyssey for now, and LISTEN and enjoy in family room!
-"play" with my new Calibrated MiniDSP UMIK-1 and REW (Mon 12/30 hopefully), tweak PEQ and re-run Audyssey

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post #44 of 51 Old 12-23-2013, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Placed an amazon order for one of these smart strips, since I need to turn on/off the iNuke and this is easiest way.
I'll add the $34 to my BOM cost and update the title.
There are cheaper ones from $16 and up, however I like this one because you have 4 always on (the sensing one and 3 others), and it can accommodate wide transformers if needed.
Smart Strip LCG3 Energy Saving Surge Protector with Autoswitching Technology, 10-Outlet
Quote:
Ten-outlet surge protector with six-foot cord
Right-angle plug keeps cord close to the wall
Automatically turns off power when not in use to help save energy
Superior EMI/RFI filtering to 52dB

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post #45 of 51 Old 01-02-2014, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Sub is installed and in the family room, still waiting on my amazon smart strip order to come in.
I picked free shipping and it gave me 8-9 days out instead of 2-3 like just before Christmas, so hopefully Monday Jan-6th or so.
Yea, I have it "rightside up" now, as I define that as ports on top.
Family%2520Room%2520Install.JPG

Final pictures of the build:
just painted black and drying
paint%25202.JPG . paint%25203.JPG

Amp fan mod. Stock fan in with cooling shroud, new fan on table, RH pict new fan installed
Amp%2520Mod-1.JPG . Amp%2520Mod-2.JPG

New fan installed, shroud back in place, so much quieter.
Amp%2520Mod-3.JPG

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post #46 of 51 Old 01-02-2014, 09:35 AM
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Really nice!

Congrats on a great build! Enjoy!

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post #47 of 51 Old 01-02-2014, 09:55 AM
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Connects? Speakon?

Looks great.......what specific paint? Just curious........

Never mind...........I found it! biggrin.gif

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post #48 of 51 Old 01-02-2014, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Connects? Speakon?

Looks great.......what specific paint? Just curious........

Never mind...........I found it! biggrin.gif

Paint: black Valspar Ultra from Lowes - since this will get lots of use/abuse in family room area I'll post here after 8-12 months to see how robust it really holds up.


I had 1 extra PE Square Speaker Terminal Cup 4" Gold Banana Binding Post, so used that with banana plugs
https://www.parts-express.com/square-speaker-terminal-cup-4-gold-banana-binding-post--260-284


Else I would have went with this on the box
https://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nl4mpr-speakon-connector-4-pole-round-chassis-mount--092-054



and these for the cable to box side for back side clearance
https://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nl4frx-speakon-spx-right-angle-cable-connector-4p--092-192

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post #49 of 51 Old 01-02-2014, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post


Else I would have went with this on the box
https://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nl4mpr-speakon-connector-4-pole-round-chassis-mount--092-054



and these for the cable to box side for back side clearance
https://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nl4frx-speakon-spx-right-angle-cable-connector-4p--092-192

Yup, those are the cables/connectors I'm using....................speakons......................

I used rattle cans due to being terrible with a brush!!! biggrin.gif

Two coats of flat black.......................then two coats with Truck bed liner........................


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post #50 of 51 Old 02-14-2014, 12:12 PM
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How did this build ever turn out? Did it perform as well as expected?
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post #51 of 51 Old 02-20-2014, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattmatt22 View Post

How did this build ever turn out? Did it perform as well as expected?

Matt - Met and exceeded expectations! For now I have 1 in the space, the iNuke3000 can handle a 2nd one.
My limiting factor now is the 16+ year old AT System 350, I'm looking at DIY options to replace those, as they are 4ohm and limit my Denon 4308 to play -12db MV or less, any higher and it goes into current protect mode, so I can't play the set-up at full MV 0db redface.gif

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