Pro Amp Relay Box - NASTY power down thump - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 64 Old 11-30-2013, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I built a relay box to power up/down my iNuke 6000 DSP's. It works great with the exception of a nasty power down thump. It doesn't sound good at all.

I used a G7L-1A-TUBJ-CB-DC12 mechanical relay. Is there anything that I can add or change that will fix this? At this point I don't want to use the relay box.
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post #2 of 64 Old 11-30-2013, 07:56 PM
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I'm still looking for coffee this morning, but did you mount inside the amp? I have this setup and no thumps using ep/epx amps with huge subs.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1468003/remoting-multiple-pro-amps

"I should really see what dB levels I'm pushing. Long as it can't foam my beer during a movie we are ok "
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post #3 of 64 Old 11-30-2013, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I followed this thread: Automatically Powering on Pro Amps via Relay

After a little testing without the relay box, if I shut down the amp via the amp's power switch, I do not get any pops. However, if I just pull the plug on the amp, I get the same nasty pop out of each sub.
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post #4 of 64 Old 11-30-2013, 08:15 PM
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Yeah I wired off the input inline with the pwr supply which should be the same as pulling from the wall. With the epx series the front panel buttons are some kinda of soft touch circuit and it wouldn't work wired the same way as the EP series. I wonder if Inuke is even more finicky. Hmm maybe someone with an inuke can chime in with the same.

"I should really see what dB levels I'm pushing. Long as it can't foam my beer during a movie we are ok "
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post #5 of 64 Old 11-30-2013, 08:23 PM
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If they have a micro button switch and not a toggle switch, you can always create something that on signal change from your avr's relay output (on 0-12v or 12-0v) it essentially presses the button by closing the button circuit. Shouldn't cost more than $10 and some time soldering up a board to do this.

If you want to try this and you have any issues let me know. I don't have the time at the moment, but when I do I wouldn't mind designing something for you to do this.
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post #6 of 64 Old 11-30-2013, 10:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

If they have a micro button switch and not a toggle switch, you can always create something that on signal change from your avr's relay output (on 0-12v or 12-0v) it essentially presses the button by closing the button circuit. Shouldn't cost more than $10 and some time soldering up a board to do this.

If you want to try this and you have any issues let me know. I don't have the time at the moment, but when I do I wouldn't mind designing something for you to do this.

I am not sure what type of switch it is. Can just tell you that it is a push button switch.

I would definitely like to try this, but would need guidance.
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post #7 of 64 Old 12-01-2013, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sslv2pwned View Post

I am not sure what type of switch it is. Can just tell you that it is a push button switch.

I would definitely like to try this, but would need guidance.

You really need to find out what type of switch it is. If it's one of those microswitches that end up controlling power via a microcontroller on board, then there's not really an easy way to do this, but you can try something like I suggested.

If it's a toggle switch, you can just have your relay open the circuit at that switch.
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post #8 of 64 Old 12-01-2013, 03:47 AM
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I use a Monster 3500 which powers off my amps and cleanbox pros in order which usually prevents loud on/off thumps with every pro amp Ive owned except the Inuke 6000dsp. It would still power off with a loud thump. However the Inuke 6000 works fine on the same Monster 3500 with no on/off thumps. Weird.
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post #9 of 64 Old 12-08-2013, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

You really need to find out what type of switch it is. If it's one of those microswitches that end up controlling power via a microcontroller on board, then there's not really an easy way to do this, but you can try something like I suggested.

If it's a toggle switch, you can just have your relay open the circuit at that switch.


I finally got a chance to take the amp apart and check out the switch. I appears to be a standard toggle push button switch. Below is a picture. I also attached a picture of the relay in the power supply.

I did just notice that the box says that it has a Switch-Mode Power Supply for Noise-Free Audio and Low Power Consumption

click on the pictures to expand


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post #10 of 64 Old 12-08-2013, 06:52 PM
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Is the amp the only thing being turned off with the power relay? I know the miniDSP can make a thump when powered off, but you have the DSP version of this amp so you may not use one.
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post #11 of 64 Old 12-08-2013, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanJ View Post

Is the amp the only thing being turned off with the power relay? I know the miniDSP can make a thump when powered off, but you have the DSP version of this amp so you may not use one.

Yes, the amp is the only thing plugged into the power relay.
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post #12 of 64 Old 12-08-2013, 08:02 PM
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If you're comfortable, you can just move the relay inside the amp box. Have it open/close the hot wire to the switch. That way it's like turning off the switch instead of unplugging.
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post #13 of 64 Old 12-08-2013, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanJ View Post

Is the amp the only thing being turned off with the power relay? I know the miniDSP can make a thump when powered off, but you have the DSP version of this amp so you may not use one.

Good thought. I was about to add this also it happens with the on/off with the Behringer BFD1124P. My BFD stays on 24/7 to avoid this.
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

If you're comfortable, you can just move the relay inside the amp box. Have it open/close the hot wire to the switch. That way it's like turning off the switch instead of unplugging.

That's what I say too if there is room.


Like my post if mounting the relay inside make sure it doesn't sit on the reset button (little black side button).
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post #14 of 64 Old 12-08-2013, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

If you're comfortable, you can just move the relay inside the amp box. Have it open/close the hot wire to the switch. That way it's like turning off the switch instead of unplugging.

So I would just splice the red wire and put the relay in place?
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post #15 of 64 Old 12-08-2013, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sslv2pwned View Post

So I would just splice the red wire and put the relay in place?

Sort of. Looks like its receiving power via the red wire and toggling it between two circuits. Measure the amp when its on and off to see. You'll want your relay to do the same thing. Keep in mind, if you do this normal switching function will be lost unless you put it back to factory. You will have to disconnect the switch and wire the relay in instead.

Anyway. It's most likely receiving voltage on the red, then diverting it to whichever black depending on position. You'll need a different relay for this since yours can only open and close the load. You want to be able to toggle the load between two pins like a 5 pin automotive relay between 87 and 87a.

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post #16 of 64 Old 12-09-2013, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I did some testing and it is the black wire that is carrying the power.

Power Off:
  • Red wire 0v
  • Black wire 118v

Power On:
  • Red wire 118v
  • Black wire 118v

The other black wire is a low voltage (red / black pair) that activates at least two relays that I can hear clicking. It also powers the fans. I verified this by disconnecting it from the main board.

Considering the above, I have the right relay and would use it to jumper the black switch wire. Correct?


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post #17 of 64 Old 12-09-2013, 08:01 AM
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Didn't realize there were two pairs from the pics. I'd first try to use the relay to break the 120v red wire, leave the amp in the on position. If that doesn't work, it might need another relay to break the low voltage wires too. Hard to tell without having the amp in front of me or a schematic.
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post #18 of 64 Old 12-09-2013, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sslv2pwned View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

If you're comfortable, you can just move the relay inside the amp box. Have it open/close the hot wire to the switch. That way it's like turning off the switch instead of unplugging.

So I would just splice the red wire and put the relay in place?

I placed a 12V relay in my EP4000 and its been working for almost 2 years no problem.

I would recommend splicing in the relay after the switch if possible so if you experience a short circuit or relay failure etc you will always have the switch as a fail safe to disconnect power quick and easily.

I used a mono panel mount 1/8" jack and stuck with standard trigger wire but you could actuate however you want.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1397966/ep4000-12v-trigger-mod
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post #19 of 64 Old 12-09-2013, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Didn't realize there were two pairs from the pics. I'd first try to use the relay to break the 120v red wire, leave the amp in the on position. If that doesn't work, it might need another relay to break the low voltage wires too. Hard to tell without having the amp in front of me or a schematic.

I'm a bit confused as to what is going on. I put the relay on the red line. The AVR activates the relay and powers up the amp. When I turn off the AVR, I hear the relay click, but the amp stays on. It does the same on the black wire. To test that I didn't fry the relay somehow, I put it between the reset button. When doing this, the AVR turns the amp on and off. However, this is just like pulling the plug and I get the nasty thump.

Why would the relay not be closing the circuit? I can hear is switch, but verified that there is indeed 118v going through both posts of the relay when it should be on the hot end only.

If while the AVR is off and the amp is still on, when it should have turned off, the amp of course turns off when I push the amp switch to off. If I turn the amp back on with the amp switch, the amp doesn't come back on since the relay has closed the circuit. I have to use the relay test button or AVR to turn it on.

EDIT: It should be noted that pressing the test button closes the relay and powers up the amp. Releasing the test button does NOT open the relay and power off the amp. Same issue as with 12v AVR trigger.
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post #20 of 64 Old 12-09-2013, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

I placed a 12V relay in my EP4000 and its been working for almost 2 years no problem.

I would recommend splicing in the relay after the switch if possible so if you experience a short circuit or relay failure etc you will always have the switch as a fail safe to disconnect power quick and easily.

I used a mono panel mount 1/8" jack and stuck with standard trigger wire but you could actuate however you want.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1397966/ep4000-12v-trigger-mod

Thanks... I am using the standard AVR trigger too.
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post #21 of 64 Old 12-09-2013, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I did additional testing... If I remove the low voltage cable that is powering the fans and other onboard relays, the trigger operates the amp as expected. Once the low voltage wires are connected, the relay does not shut down the amp once triggered.

I am thinking that I need to get a Double Pole, Single Throw (DPST) relay to control both the high voltage and low voltage wires. Are you guys in agreement?

Here is a 12VDC 25A DPST relay that should do the trick:

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Omron-Electronics/G7L-2A-TUBJ-CB-DC12/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtSzCF3XBhmW15747hehDm9N15w27XExqI%3d


.
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post #22 of 64 Old 12-09-2013, 02:58 PM
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I am speculating here... I am thinking that the relay that is built into the amplifier may be used to keep the amplifier on after the front power switch has been turned off. That would give the amplifier the ability to do a controlled shut down that eliminates the thump.
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post #23 of 64 Old 12-09-2013, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanJ View Post

I am speculating here... I am thinking that the relay that is built into the amplifier may be used to keep the amplifier on after the front power switch has been turned off. That would give the amplifier the ability to do a controlled shut down that eliminates the thump.

I think you are right. Something is, otherwise I would get the thump when pushing the button each time. I am thinking that the DPST relay that I referenced above should do the trick. Hopefully someone will check back on this thread and confirm.
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post #24 of 64 Old 12-09-2013, 09:11 PM
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I have the inuke 3000, I will look to see if it is the same tomorrow. If it does, I will see what is going on inside it.
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post #25 of 64 Old 12-09-2013, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I have the inuke 3000, I will look to see if it is the same tomorrow. If it does, I will see what is going on inside it.

I'm curious if it is the same as the DSP version. Notice Swolephile's experience below. Let me know what you find. Thanks!
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I use a Monster 3500 which powers off my amps and cleanbox pros in order which usually prevents loud on/off thumps with every pro amp Ive owned except the Inuke 6000dsp. It would still power off with a loud thump. However the Inuke 6000 works fine on the same Monster 3500 with no on/off thumps. Weird.
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post #26 of 64 Old 12-09-2013, 09:22 PM
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Mine is actually the DSP version.
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post #27 of 64 Old 12-09-2013, 09:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Mine is actually the DSP version.

Excellent! It will be nice to figure this out. I have two of the iNuke 6000 DSP's and would really like to get everything powering up and down with my Nexus 7.



Question... Since this relay box isn't going to work for my amps, is there any reason why I couldn't use it to control my plasma TV and blu-ray player?
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post #28 of 64 Old 12-10-2013, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
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is there any reason why I couldn't use it to control my plasma TV and blu-ray player?

Potentially a similar situation, albeit perhaps different symptom, as the deal you're seeing with the amp.

I think if power is lost/cut to my Panasonic plasma, next time I turn it on it asks me to check/confirm the setup. Do you (potentially) want that every time the TV turns on?

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #29 of 64 Old 12-10-2013, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Potentially a similar situation, albeit perhaps different symptom, as the deal you're seeing with the amp.

I think if power is lost/cut to my Panasonic plasma, next time I turn it on it asks me to check/confirm the setup. Do you (potentially) want that every time the TV turns on?

I tested it and it seems to work great. It's not asking me to setup when turning on the AVR and activating the relay box. I was more concerned about something happening to the TV, but after I really thought about it I knew it was just asking like wall switch.

So as of now this relay box will power my TV, Chromecast and blu-ray. I need to get two new relays for testing the iNukes.
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post #30 of 64 Old 12-10-2013, 02:05 PM
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I looked in my inuke 3000 DSP and it does not have the same power switch as yours does. Mine is just a simple DPST switch. I just have 2 wires, both blue that go into my simple switch.

For your amp I would do a little more testing before purchasing anything. I am curious about the smaller wires going to that switch.

Does either of those small wires have power when the amp is shut down?
When the amp is on are both the red and black small wires at the same voltage?
When you are turning off the amp, does one or both of those wires still have voltage? for how long?

You probably can get by with 2 separate relays or a DPDT 12v relay, but it would help to know what is happening with those low voltage lines.
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