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post #31 of 59 Old 12-09-2013, 06:48 PM
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Mine are bi-wired with one amp per driver so it's very easy for me to test each driver individually, I just mute those channels or turn off those amps.
(Literally ONE driver, not a stereo pair or vertical set or anything)

If you already welded the XO sections together inside the speaker to just one binding post, then I guess you wouldn't be able to do it the way I do it.

That's why I bought 26 binding posts, so that I could control every coil individually. People were like: "dude, that is MADNESS"... and I was like: "THIS IS SPARTA!!!" ROFL smile.gif

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post #32 of 59 Old 12-09-2013, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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BTH,

To complicated for me...I just want it simple...

I've sort of given up on trying to improve it more cause I'm driving myself mad when they'll be going in the surround position anyways.

I'll wait for the Tux10-99 and continue then...

I am thankful of all the help I've gotten here so far...so thanks to all for your help.
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post #33 of 59 Old 12-09-2013, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Looks like a baffle wall is in your near future.
Or not. Look at the increase in the upper midbass when on the floor. That's the result of a shift towards half-space loading by being so close to the floor. With a full baffle wall they'll get half-space loading all the way down, and as it appears they have BSC that could make them too full in the midbass.

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post #34 of 59 Old 12-09-2013, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Or not. Look at the increase in the upper midbass when on the floor. That's the result of a shift towards half-space loading by being so close to the floor. With a full baffle wall they'll get half-space loading all the way down, and as it appears they have BSC that could make them too full in the midbass.

I was just talking about him getting the cabs to the correct height and getting the baffles of subs in correct positioning even though they are fine out away from the wall as they are. But if he's getting different LCRs then I guess its a moot point anyway. But I did think that the baffle wall would increase the mid bass from 100-150hz in general.
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post #35 of 59 Old 12-09-2013, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That makes the distance traveled by the ceiling bounce longer, which should lower the cancellation frequency if ceiling bounce is the cause. It did. Now try it with the speaker 6 feet above the floor.

Looks like it moved down to me? And when he raise the mic (shortening the length), it moved up. So given he can't move that null from horizontal placement, but can from vertical placement I'm inclined to believe this is ceiling related.
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post #36 of 59 Old 12-09-2013, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Looks like it moved down to me? And when he raise the mic (shortening the length), it moved up. So given he can't move that null from horizontal placement, but can from vertical placement I'm inclined to believe this is ceiling related.
That's what I said.

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post #37 of 59 Old 12-09-2013, 07:59 PM
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Huh, whoops. Just re-read it, didnt get you the first time smile.gif
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post #38 of 59 Old 12-12-2013, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Well this is the best I can do...I'll leave like this till I get the TUX10-99's here. It feels like forever now.

Sharing this result and also wanted to show how much head room I have with my subs!
The blue is with the MiniDSP input at -21 and the Black is at 0.

It's unreal how much bass I can put here....I love it!!!!
What's sad is that I need moar! eek.gif

I notice that with the input of the MiniDSP turned all the way to "0" my 150HZ dip goes up +5DB !



BTW, I listen to alot of the same music and always listen to the same songs when I do some listening tests.
I must say these little guys are REALLY growing on me. I can't believe how good they sound!
Is it cause they're breakin' in, or I'm getting use to them but I am really pleasantly surprised with the sound....very nice!

I'm really impressed when I turn the sound up there!
They can really take it!

I've had my towers for more than 15 years and am extremely used to them...These Fusion 8's are very impressive!!!
I could not imagine how the 12 or the 15" version must sound like here!

Oh ya did I say I can't wait for the TUX10-99's??? redface.gif
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post #39 of 59 Old 12-12-2013, 03:44 PM
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That is some insane headroom man. Could you turn down the gain on your amps, and raise up the input on the minidsp? That might be a happier place for your gear, but I dunno for sure.

They're probably breaking in and growing on you. With time you'll start to adapt to their sound. Sometimes a new speaker sounds bad right away cause it's not the distortion you're used to. Sometime it sounds bad right away cause it's bad. Sometimes it sounds good right away because it's got a new distortion you'll later realize is bad. Sounds like you might be the first one smile.gif
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post #40 of 59 Old 12-12-2013, 05:19 PM
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A dip at 150 Hz would correspond to a reflection (SBIR) which has a 2,3 m longer travel to LP compared to the direct sound. Direct sound and reflected sound of 150 Hz will be out of phase with each other a bit which is why you get a dip at LP.

A simple trick to check where the refection might come from would be to measure up a string between speaker and LP = direct path, then add 2,3 m ( 90,5”) of string. Edit: A simple trick to check where the reflection might come from would be to measure up a string between speaker and LP = direct path, then add 2,3 / 2 = 1,15 m ( = 45 “) of string. Reason: Speed of sound at room temperature: 344 m/s and 150 Hz has a wavelength of 344 / 150 = 2,3 m (90”). For a complete cancellation (null) of 150 Hz at LP from direct sound and interfering reflected sound, sound waves are half a wavelength apart, or 180 degree out of phase, so 90” / 2 = 45” length of “extra string is needed.Tape the ends of the string to the speaker and LP, then stretch it towards surrounding reflecting surfaces. When the string is stretched and forms a triangle you may have found the reflection spot which needs to be treated with absorbtion or redirected towards the backwall. This should be done with only 1 front speaker connected. If you do not find a spot on the sidewall, floor etc, the cause can be a bounce between two surfaces before reaching LP, only 1 surface would be necessary to treat. (With both front speakers connected the sound waves from them interact and could also be a partial cause for the dip, so better to check with 1 speaker at a time to cut down on the variables.)
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post #41 of 59 Old 12-13-2013, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adhoc1 View Post

A dip at 150 Hz would correspond to a reflection (SBIR) which has a 2,3 m longer travel to LP compared to the direct sound. Direct sound and reflected sound of 150 Hz will be out of phase with each other a bit which is why you get a dip at LP.

A simple trick to check where the refection might come from would be to measure up a string between speaker and LP = direct path, then add 2,3 m ( 90,5”) of string. Tape the ends of the string to the speaker and LP, then stretch it towards surrounding reflecting surfaces. When the string is stretched and forms a triangle you may have found the reflection spot which needs to be treated with absorbtion or redirected towards the backwall. This should be done with only 1 front speaker connected. If you do not find a spot on the sidewall, floor etc, the cause can be a bounce between two surfaces before reaching LP, only 1 surface would be necessary to treat. (With both front speakers connected the sound waves from them interact and could also be a partial cause for the dip, so better to check with 1 speaker at a time to cut down on the variables.)

Can you explain the math that you used to determine the 2.3 meter distance derived from the null at 150hz, preferably in feet or inches instead of meters?
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post #42 of 59 Old 12-13-2013, 06:11 AM
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A 150hz sound wave is 2.3 meters or 90 inches.
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post #43 of 59 Old 12-13-2013, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Can you explain the math that you used to determine the 2.3 meter distance derived from the null at 150hz, preferably in feet or inches instead of meters?
A 1/2 wavelength path difference makes the direct and reflected waves 180 degrees out of phase. That's 3.8 feet (1130 divided by 150 divided by 2). That's not 2.3 meters, so I think he miscalculated.

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post #44 of 59 Old 12-13-2013, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

That is some insane headroom man. Could you turn down the gain on your amps, and raise up the input on the minidsp? That might be a happier place for your gear, but I dunno for sure.

They're probably breaking in and growing on you. With time you'll start to adapt to their sound. Sometimes a new speaker sounds bad right away cause it's not the distortion you're used to. Sometime it sounds bad right away cause it's bad. Sometimes it sounds good right away because it's got a new distortion you'll later realize is bad. Sounds like you might be the first one smile.gif

Yes I can turn them down.
They are at the 1 o'clock position on the amps except the ep4000 is at the 3 o'clock position
At -10 on the MiniDSP and playing WOTW at 0 master volume...I don't even clip the lights on both amps...and that's running crazy hot!

As to your 2nd part...I read it 16 times and still strugling what exactly you're trying to say smile.gif

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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

A 1/2 wavelength path difference makes the direct and reflected waves 180 degrees out of phase. That's 3.8 feet (1130 divided by 150 divided by 2). That's not 2.3 meters, so I think he miscalculated.


Here's what I tried...I tried this because I'm hoping to help someone else with this.
I went and bought some Roxul insulation and placed it on the side walls as seen in this picture.


This is the results...
Red is WITH insulation
Blue is WITHOUT insulation

What I see is that it did SQUAT on the 150HZ range but really helped from 150 to 350!

Oh and AVH...
This is a measurement of my left speaker measured at about 8" between the woofer and CD
Can't believe how much the graph changes just moving the mic a hair


Again...thank you kindly for the help...I really should be doing this once I get my real LCR's
I would have to think that they should make a difference!
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post #45 of 59 Old 12-13-2013, 09:02 AM
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I don't see the need to post the super low stuff since your focus is on 150Hz.

To clarify, I recommend everyone capture the full fr when measuring in case the need for the full response arises in the future, then just post up whatever is relevant to the topic at hand. In this case, maybe an octave below your sub crossover point.

 

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post #46 of 59 Old 12-13-2013, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

This is the results...
Red is WITH insulation
Blue is WITHOUT insulation

What I see is that it did SQUAT on the 150HZ range but really helped from 150 to 350!
That shows you had more than one issue, not just ceiling bounce, but wall bounce as well. The only problem with using damping to make the room non-reflective to eliminate nulls is that you may also make the room so dead that it doesn't have any ambiance. At some point you have to accept that more damping isn't a good idea and that diffusion might be in order.

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post #47 of 59 Old 12-13-2013, 09:10 AM
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So my layman's interpretation of your last graphs: Near-field measurement has smooth graph, measurement at LP doesn't. Suckout at ~150 hz which could be a cancellation from reflection traveling 3.8 extra feet. So you tape one end of a string to the front baffle of speaker, hold the other end at lp, now add 3.8 feet of string. Wherever you can reach the string to a surface is your out of phase reflection point.

Anyhow, this whole discussion has been very informative for me, although I have extremely limited treatment options in my room.


Also, just want to say that bass graph is to die for. I can make a nice and flat graph to below 10 hz, but it will be at 85 db. If I try a sweep above 90db, my amp completely shuts off going below the teens.
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post #48 of 59 Old 12-13-2013, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

A 1/2 wavelength path difference makes the direct and reflected waves 180 degrees out of phase. That's 3.8 feet (1130 divided by 150 divided by 2). That's not 2.3 meters, so I think he miscalculated.

Ooop! Thanks for the correction Bill, you are right. The calculation was right, the mind wasn’t. –One shouldn’t post at 2,30 in the morning. I will edit my above post.
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post #49 of 59 Old 12-13-2013, 12:30 PM
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If one uses resistive absorbers, the thickness of the absorber should be around 1/10 or thicker compared to the frequencys wavelength to make a substantial improvement. => For 150 Hz: wavelength 90” / 10 = 9”. Versus this low frequency and “rather thick” absorber it is better go for a lower gas flow resistivity like OC 701 with has about 8400 mks Rayls/m. The more common OC 703 has about 17 300 mks Rayls/m, costs more and is more suitable if one can only use a thinner absorber.

(Thick absorbers, 6” or more, go for a low gas resistivity with usually low density for the wool, thin absorbers, < 4”, go for higher gas flow resistivity and usually a bit higher density. A link to check out with a program, if one is in doubt of what to choose http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9533242-post17.html and http://www.acousticmodelling.com/porous.php )
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post #50 of 59 Old 12-13-2013, 01:02 PM
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Why not just use the string method to figure out where the reflection is at that is causing the null? Also, if you want to even make a dent in the 150hz area with regards to absorbing panels, you would need a very thick panel with a large air gap, which I would bet is not doable in your room, although, I am not sure if your problem in the 150hz area is going to be rectified by absorbing panels on the walls. It could be a reflection off a piece of furniture or possibly a ceiling reflection, won't know until you figure that out either via the string method, or what ever way you plan to figure this out with.
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post #51 of 59 Old 12-13-2013, 01:45 PM
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To save space and depth, he could build an air tight box, fill it with glass wool and drill the front panel for a suitable perforation ratio to get a Helmholtz absorber suitable for 150 Hz, the room would not be “deadened” as higer frequencies would remain intact. The front panel could also be bent to a poly (curve) if one wants some scattering and avoid specular reflections. From the link I posted above (only absorber 1 is checked):

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post #52 of 59 Old 12-13-2013, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Why not just use the string method to figure out where the reflection is at that is causing the null? Also, if you want to even make a dent in the 150hz area with regards to absorbing panels, you would need a very thick panel with a large air gap, which I would bet is not doable in your room, although, I am not sure if your problem in the 150hz area is going to be rectified by absorbing panels on the walls. It could be a reflection off a piece of furniture or possibly a ceiling reflection, won't know until you figure that out either via the string method, or what ever way you plan to figure this out with.
It's not like the spot is that small. To act as a reflector a surface must be close to a wavelength in dimension. That's where diffusion comes in. Instead of a flat ceiling break it up so that it's a series of smaller panels at various angles that won't reflect long wavelengths intact, but will reflect short wavelengths intact, so you tame low frequency nulls without making the room totally dead.

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post #53 of 59 Old 12-13-2013, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

It's not like the spot is that small. To act as a reflector a surface must be close to a wavelength in dimension. That's where diffusion comes in. Instead of a flat ceiling break it up so that it's a series of smaller panels at various angles that won't reflect long wavelengths intact, but will reflect short wavelengths intact, so you tame low frequency nulls without making the room totally dead.

Thanks for pointing that out! Can this be done with any type of hard, reflective material? I have seen some pretty elaborate diffusion panels over the years, but, if all you need is to break up the area in question with various sized items to scatter the long sound waves, and being that this could be done without such an elaborate designed panel due to the LF wavelengths being so large, why are there so many of these elaborate, not to mention expensive, diffusion panels out there on the market?

Is it because most of these pre-made diffusion panels are designed to reflect more of the smaller spectral frequencies as opposed to the longer model frequencies?

I would love to experiment with some diffusion panels but the cost to purchase them is enormous! I would be interested in building some DIY diffusion panels but that seems to be way more complicated than building some absorbing panels, which I already have done.
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post #54 of 59 Old 12-13-2013, 07:53 PM
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Thanks for pointing that out! Can this be done with any type of hard, reflective material?
Even drywall. This is a side view of a diffuse ceiling, each panel two feet wide. It's not the least bit difficult to do one of these.

diffuse ceiling.jpg
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Is it because most of these pre-made diffusion panels are designed to reflect more of the smaller spectral frequencies as opposed to the longer model frequencies?
+1. Those are most useful on walls, which see a lot more high frequency reflections, because speakers have wider dispersion on the horizontal plane than the vertical above roughly 500Hz. Fewer high frequencies reflect off the ceiling, so the size of the panels can be much larger.

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post #55 of 59 Old 12-16-2013, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to try with some insulation on the ceiling above the LR speakers but will have to find a creative way of having them stay up without using glue or destroying my ceiling!
I do not want to make holes or even have a scratch up there.

I will then post results INCLUDING the ULF response!!!!

Thanks all
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post #56 of 59 Old 12-18-2013, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

I'm going to try with some insulation on the ceiling above the LR speakers but will have to find a creative way of having them stay up without using glue or destroying my ceiling!
I do not want to make holes or even have a scratch up there.

I will then post results INCLUDING the ULF response!!!!

Thanks all

What type of in solution are you going to use on your ceiling? I have 4" OC703 with a 4" air gap that I use on mine. I use really long fish eye hooks that are attached to the frame of my panels. Works quite well, very sturdy, and makes it easier to move them around.
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post #57 of 59 Old 12-18-2013, 05:09 AM - Thread Starter
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That's a great idea!

Right now I just want to do some tests and I've been pondering some ideas of how I can just put some insulation up there and take some measurements just to see what happens.

Was thinking of asking the kids to hold some up while I take measurements but doesn't work.

Just got the idea of buying a few extendible shower poles to hang between the soffit and my center hanging ceiling (HVAC duct) and place some insulation on the poles so they stay up-there.

I'll use the roxul insulation I just bought and will probably also leave a 4 inch air gap between the ceiling and insulation.

I'll probably just do that this weekend though.
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post #58 of 59 Old 12-18-2013, 12:06 PM
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Use the large no hole decorative hangers that has the double sided tape that secures the hangers. It my take a few packages for the weight but no holes for testing purposes and prolly under $40 for both left and right channel testing. Hobby Lobby has many sizes to choose from and the weight rating is on the package. I find the weight rating to be extremely on the low side fwiw. Like I have hung 10x the rated weight for extended periods.
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post #59 of 59 Old 01-22-2014, 07:31 PM
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I guess it's time for 8 21's? Make the coffee table fly to the moon wink.gif
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