My Fushion-8 Graphs in my Room... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 59 Old 12-06-2013, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Well got my 4x Fushion-8 kits and have finished building 2 so far and graphed them.
This is a comparison to my towers I had before.
Can't believe how these midgets sound! Very surprised to see what they can do...they're soooo small !!!
Red is the Fushion-8's
Blue is my towers (I had paid them $3000 at that time!)


I hate the dip starting at 100HZ to about 170HZ.
Tux I need the TUX10-99 and HOPE this fixes that dip!
It really bothers me and don't know how to fix that !


Here's my settings I have on my MiniDSP to achieve my low end...
It amazes me that I need to TURN DOWN my 10DB as it seems my room has alot of gain under 10HZ.
I'm NOT complaining! biggrin.gif



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post #2 of 59 Old 12-06-2013, 01:27 PM
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What is the crossover set to on your receiver? The sub looks like it running hot compared to the mains. Are you running Audyssey or something similar?



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post #3 of 59 Old 12-06-2013, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

What is the crossover set to on your receiver? The sub looks like it running hot compared to the mains. Are you running Audyssey or something similar?

The xover on the receiver is at 80HZ.
I have a HK 7550HD receiver and do not have Audessy.
The HK has EzSet EQ and it svcks! So no eq at all except the miniDSP on the low end. The only thing is I have the treble set at +5

I do run my subs hot...I can't stand the sound flat on the low end.

I'm hopeful that the TUX10-99 will fix my dip?
I don't know what to do to fix it but these midgets are going in the surround positions anyways.
I need more juice up front with better/stronger LCR's (I hope so anyways)


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post #4 of 59 Old 12-06-2013, 01:55 PM
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That looks like a huge improvement. The tux 10-99 will help if its a vertical reflection (likely). If its sidewall or something, perhaps not.
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post #5 of 59 Old 12-06-2013, 02:10 PM
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change your sub xover to 120Hz
see what that does

you have it in both traces so its def some room reaction,


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post #6 of 59 Old 12-06-2013, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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green is xover at 80HZ
Blue is xover at 120HZ
red is xover at 150HZ


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post #7 of 59 Old 12-06-2013, 02:42 PM
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What else did you change in that second measurement?


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post #8 of 59 Old 12-06-2013, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I tried moving the fusions a little.
They are on top of the 2 subs in the corners.
They are pointing directly to me at the MLP which is dead center to the screen. (Left/right) NOT center of room

Gonna try different positions on top of the subs


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post #9 of 59 Old 12-06-2013, 04:57 PM
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Measure with your subs turned off and see what the speakers look like by themselves.
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post #10 of 59 Old 12-06-2013, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Measure with your subs turned off and see what the speakers look like by themselves.
yeah

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post #11 of 59 Old 12-06-2013, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Guys,

Thanks for the help...I appreciate it very much!

Been trying everything tonight...the biggest change is moving the speakers around
This is the best I can do...The are now at the most corner position pointing directly to me.

AVH,
Here's the graph with and without the subs.


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post #12 of 59 Old 12-06-2013, 08:01 PM
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Yep. Something with the room or need EQ. A close mic measurement taken at each speaker should confirm though, correct?

I had a similar dip at 37hz that was a pain to eq.
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post #13 of 59 Old 12-06-2013, 08:02 PM
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Room dimensions? My guess is that dip is room related, possibly speaker location related. Your old speakers, your new and the subs all seeme to have that same dip more or less, so i doubt the Tux 10-99 will fix it, but might help a little.
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post #14 of 59 Old 12-07-2013, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eXa View Post

Room dimensions? My guess is that dip is room related,
+1. A dip centered at 150Hz probably indicates that either the speaker baffle or the mic is 1.9 feet from the wall behind it. Floor or ceiling bounce is another explanation.

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post #15 of 59 Old 12-07-2013, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

+1. A dip centered at 150Hz probably indicates that either the speaker baffle or the mic is 1.9 feet from the wall behind it. Floor or ceiling bounce is another explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eXa View Post

Room dimensions? My guess is that dip is room related, possibly speaker location related. Your old speakers, your new and the subs all seeme to have that same dip more or less, so i doubt the Tux 10-99 will fix it, but might help a little.


The mic is positioned at:
11' from front wall
5' 8" from back wall
7' from left/Right wall


I know it's my room that's causing it...it's gotta be!
What can I do to fix that?


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post #16 of 59 Old 12-07-2013, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Yep. Something with the room or need EQ. A close mic measurement taken at each speaker should confirm though, correct?

I had a similar dip at 37hz that was a pain to eq.

I wish I had a dip at 37HZ cause with the MiniDSP it's easy to fix
My room has a dip at around the 20HZ but have tremendous gain at 8HZ, 30HZ and 80HZ.

I have no clue how to fix a dip in the 100HZ and up signals.


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post #17 of 59 Old 12-07-2013, 09:05 AM
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So what are your room dimensions?
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post #18 of 59 Old 12-07-2013, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post


The mic is positioned at:
11' from front wall
5' 8" from back wall
7' from left/Right wall


I know it's my room that's causing it...it's gotta be!
What can I do to fix that?

Somewhat easy fix. Try building some absorbing panels to treat the front & rear walls, as well as the side walls, and if you really want to improve things, and if your wife will allow it, look into adding some absorbing panels on the ceiling, and bass traps in the corners. I am sure that this would make a huge difference to improve your sound quality!

Optimal specs of these absorbing panels would be:

OC-703 rigid fiberglass insulation.
Stack the 2" think sheets on top of each other for a total of 4" thick. Space them off the wall approx 4". You could build 2' by 4' size panels, treating the first reflection points on each wall, and ceiling. The front and rear walls could probably stand to be treated more so than the side walls, but I would use at least two 2' by 4' panels on each side wall. You can search for ideas on how to construct your bass traps, and a suitable material to cover your absorbing panels to make them look nice.

I would venture to say that if you do those things that I mentioned, your sound quality and frequency response would improve by quite a large amount!
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post #19 of 59 Old 12-07-2013, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

The mic is positioned at:
11' from front wall
5' 8" from back wall
7' from left/Right wall
Those distances don't explain a 150Hz dip. Try moving the mic to see what happens, including up and down. And what is the distance from the baffle of the main speaker(s) to the wall behind it/them? Allison Effect is the most common source of midbass dips, yet the most overlooked.

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post #20 of 59 Old 12-07-2013, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eXa View Post

So what are your room dimensions?

roughly 17 x 14 x 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Somewhat easy fix. Try building some absorbing panels to treat the front & rear walls, as well as the side walls, and if you really want to improve things, and if your wife will allow it, look into adding some absorbing panels on the ceiling, and bass traps in the corners. I am sure that this would make a huge difference to improve your sound quality!

Optimal specs of these absorbing panels would be:

OC-703 rigid fiberglass insulation.
Stack the 2" think sheets on top of each other for a total of 4" thick. Space them off the wall approx 4". You could build 2' by 4' size panels, treating the first reflection points on each wall, and ceiling. The front and rear walls could probably stand to be treated more so than the side walls, but I would use at least two 2' by 4' panels on each side wall. You can search for ideas on how to construct your bass traps, and a suitable material to cover your absorbing panels to make them look nice.

I would venture to say that if you do those things that I mentioned, your sound quality and frequency response would improve by quite a large amount!

I've played with my room hundreds of times with placing pink insulation everywhere...I mean everywhere.
I've tried bass traps, insulating the sides only, the sides and back, and many more combo's. I've always had that 150 dip! It's driven me crazy.
I really thought it was my speakers but am seeing the same thing with the Fusions except better/flatter response.
I don't know what else to do for that 150 dipstick!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Those distances don't explain a 150Hz dip. Try moving the mic to see what happens, including up and down. And what is the distance from the baffle of the main speaker(s) to the wall behind it/them? Allison Effect is the most common source of midbass dips, yet the most overlooked.

The distance between the baffle of the speaker to the wall range I have is from 8" to 30".
I've tried against the wall to it furthest point (about 30") and that dip is always there!

Here's the results of placing the mic 2 ft forward of MLP (Red)


Pics of the front and back of my room.
Sorry about the mess...still finishing up my Fusion builds eek.gif


In this picture, the fusions are pretty much against the front wall and approx 20" from the side walls...at that position, they give me the flattest response
The colums are aLL pink insulation filled. you can also see pink insulation up against the side walls in the corners.


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post #21 of 59 Old 12-07-2013, 12:47 PM
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Where are you placing the mic? Maybe the head rest on the seat is causing the issue.



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post #22 of 59 Old 12-07-2013, 01:31 PM
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It appears to me the sub baffles are too far away from the wall, and the L/R baffles too close. I'd turn the subs around, facing them at the wall. I'd also want the L/R higher, by maybe a couple of feet, aimed downward to keep the HF horn on-axis with the LP.

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post #23 of 59 Old 12-07-2013, 01:53 PM
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Can you measure directly in the middle of each driver close-mic. That would confirm it is the room.

I know you are using totally different speakers, but it should look something-like this:




Green EQ'ed, Red Un-EQ'ed.

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post #24 of 59 Old 12-07-2013, 02:14 PM
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His close mic measurement will be flat.

Try moving the mic up vertically 2' from the LP. If the dip moves up in frequency, its probably the ceiling.
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post #25 of 59 Old 12-07-2013, 02:23 PM
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My guess would be the distance from woofer to floor. 5ft would put a suckout around 100hz, a little higher at a distance or with the woofer not so high up.

Or ceiling, same type of thing. You have no directivity at 150hz

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post #26 of 59 Old 12-07-2013, 06:00 PM
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Ya, floor makes more sense.
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post #27 of 59 Old 12-08-2013, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

Where are you placing the mic? Maybe the head rest on the seat is causing the issue.

The mic is placed in the MLP above the headrest a good 6 inches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

It appears to me the sub baffles are too far away from the wall, and the L/R baffles too close. I'd turn the subs around, facing them at the wall. I'd also want the L/R higher, by maybe a couple of feet, aimed downward to keep the HF horn on-axis with the LP.

I will try turning my subs around to see what it does. Thanks
I'm just gonna try the easy tests below first
PS. Not sure how turning my subs around can affect the results if I get the same results with NO subs on eek.gif

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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Can you measure directly in the middle of each driver close-mic. That would confirm it is the room.

I'll try that
Though not sure how to do that?
Do I place the mic one foot away between the CD and woofer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

His close mic measurement will be flat.

Try moving the mic up vertically 2' from the LP. If the dip moves up in frequency, its probably the ceiling.

Tux see below for my graph and what it did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

My guess would be the distance from woofer to floor. 5ft would put a suckout around 100hz, a little higher at a distance or with the woofer not so high up.

Or ceiling, same type of thing. You have no directivity at 150hz

Not sure what you're saying...anyways tried new test and here's what i got.

1st picture of setup...speakers were raised 12" higher. Pic taken sitting at MLP and speakers pointing downward at me.


Results...red is mic 2 feet above MLP or close to ceiling. Green is at MLP as usual


Picture of another 2nd setup...


This is with the speaker directly on the floor and this is the results...
Green is results of 1st setup and BLACK is results of speakers on the floor.


Thanks all for the help and suggestions


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post #28 of 59 Old 12-08-2013, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Not sure how turning my subs around can affect the results if I get the same results with NO subs on eek.gif
The idea is to see what happens within the sub pass band.
Quote:
This is with the speaker directly on the floor and this is the results...
Green is results of 1st setup and BLACK is results of speakers on the floor.
That makes the distance traveled by the ceiling bounce longer, which should lower the cancellation frequency if ceiling bounce is the cause. It did. Now try it with the speaker 6 feet above the floor.

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post #29 of 59 Old 12-08-2013, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

The idea is to see what happens within the sub pass band.
That makes the distance traveled by the ceiling bounce longer, which should lower the cancellation frequency if ceiling bounce is the cause. It did. Now try it with the speaker 6 feet above the floor.

I'm gonna have to get very creative to try 6 ft high.
I'll see what I can do.

Also I ONLY have 6'3" from the soffit to the bottom of my stage so it will be less than 6' when I try it.

Will post my results with a picture to show how I got them up there.
Thanks


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post #30 of 59 Old 12-08-2013, 11:11 AM
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Looks like a baffle wall is in your near future.

I know tux said they would measure flat at close mic but just give it a try to confirm. 10"-1" with mic centered on woofer and centered between woofer and tweeter.
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