DIY to Upgrade from PB-13 Ultra - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 03:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys,

Been searching around on this topic and while theres a few others in similar situations i had a few questions. I've been considering adding a second sub to pair with my current PB-13 Ultra, it will be in my open concept living room i estimate its about 5700cu feet. Flirted with the idea of a second SVS but the price tag turned me away. Willing to put the SVS up for sale to fund this project. All in with the SVS money i'd be willing to spend $2500. Love the DIY world and am handy enough with tools!

I want a dual sub system which would be on par if not better than a Dual PB-13 Ultra setup. Obviously if i can save a few bucks itd be best.

Looking to keep the drivers smaller if possible. 15's seem to fit the bill. Maybe a pair of Dayton Ultimax 15's?
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post #2 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 04:59 AM
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Somebody more knowledgeable than myself will have to get into the particulars but your room size/layout will definitely be a variable. Also, are you looking to keep the drivers smaller based on form factor? The PB13 is a solid sub and uses a robust driver. You'd be able to top in output with all the options out there but at what cost (give your approx budget)and you also gotta consider sound quality.
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post #3 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Updated original post to include my budget $2500 all in. The subs would be in my open concept living room roughly 5700 cubic feet. Yes the smaller sub/box is for aesthetics. I could go a bit bigger footprint than the SVS if required though!

I love the SVS's sound quality but need more even bass throughout my viewing area, a little more punch in the chest would be a nice addition too wink.gif
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post #4 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 07:54 AM
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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1484470/it-finally-begins-the-uxl-18-build Not too much larger of a footprint compared to the SVS, close to same tuning, lots of displacement, and well under budget. You'd still have plenty leftover for building supplies and a hefty amp.

Re punch in the chest, what are your main speakers?
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post #5 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 08:11 AM
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http://www.istonline.ca/mach5_uxl_18.html Here is where you can find the driver and specs.
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post #6 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the link, I was browsing that thread earlier today and liked what I saw, I prefer to go sealed as I plan on using the subs for 25% music and hope for it to keep up. Any disadvantages going sealed?

My current mains are paradigm monitor 7's. I've got an emotiva xpa-3 arriving on Monday which will provide me enough power for future Studio 60's. just waiting for the right set to come my way!
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post #7 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 08:28 AM
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Ported will have about twice the output as sealed near tuning. Essentially you'll probably need several sealed to make a jump over what you already have which then makes that footprint go up.
Also, if you don't get much in the way of room gain you'll definitely need some eq. You can trump what you have going sealed as well but at the sacrifice of size (Hoffman's iron law).

Also, your mains with dual 5.25" woofers aren't doing much to contribute to any chest punch.
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post #8 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 08:36 AM
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Studio 60s won't be a big leap in the midbass either. For the price they go for you could build some very capable mains. Another option is you could keep your existing speakers and build some midbass modules. Just know that your system will only be as good as its weakest link. A potent sub with great midbass then mids and highs that can't follow suit will eventually reveal itself.
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post #9 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 09:27 AM
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Hey hyb.. If you go on over to Data http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=55&mset=55 and look at the PB13-ULTRA in the 15Hz tune and then add 6dB to the numbers, and then compare them with the sim provided, it will show you how the 15” SDX 18Hz tune with a 1000 watts driving it compares to the ULTRA 15Hz tune. I have room to add more power to the SDX or tune it higher, (more output) but this works for me in the room I’m in. We are able to use larger enclosures due to no shipping considerations. My cost $50 since I have everything on hand over the years of building. If I were to cost it out (considering the 15” SDX was still available) around $8-900. If I were to build a second sub, that would cut the cost in 1/2 for the second due to opting for using a pro amp running each sub off of each channel.

This in no way is to downplay the ULTRA, (I have had 5 of them in the past) and are great subs. Pro's and cons to consider. We never count our time over here in DIY. Many of us would be very hard pressed to come up with a finished project looking as good as the ULTRA also. The SDX driver is what I would call a SQ driver like the ULTRA. The 12" SDX costs what some popular 18"s do. Very heavy driver like the ULTRA also.


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post #10 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hybridfive View Post

Hey guys,

Been searching around on this topic and while theres a few others in similar situations i had a few questions. I've been considering adding a second sub to pair with my current PB-13 Ultra, it will be in my open concept living room i estimate its about 5700cu feet. Flirted with the idea of a second SVS but the price tag turned me away. Willing to put the SVS up for sale to fund this project. All in with the SVS money i'd be willing to spend $2500. Love the DIY world and am handy enough with tools!

I want a dual sub system which would be on par if not better than a Dual PB-13 Ultra setup. Obviously if i can save a few bucks itd be best.

Looking to keep the drivers smaller if possible. 15's seem to fit the bill. Maybe a pair of Dayton Ultimax 15's?

3 months ago i was in the same boat as you but with an SB13 Ultra. Wanted to add another SB13 but decided to take the DIY route with a sealed UXL-18. I ended up with a box 22"X 22"X 20"deep, not that much bigger than my SB13. I don't regret my choice, the UXL has ton of bass and it's a huge step forward when watching movies compared to the SB13. And according to DataBass, it should also do better than your PB13 Ultra.
I see you're in Canada, don't forget to check the shipping costs and brokerage fees if you're buying drivers from the US. Mach 5 audio are based in Canada and shipping costs are included in their prices.

You can see my build here.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1490783/mach-5-uxl-18-sealed-behringer-ep4000
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post #11 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 03:08 PM
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Do it. DO IT! biggrin.gif

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post #12 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Hey hyb.. If you go on over to Data http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=55&mset=55 and look at the PB13-ULTRA in the 15Hz tune and then add 6dB to the numbers, and then compare them with the sim provided, it will show you how the 15” SDX 18Hz tune with a 1000 watts driving it compares to the ULTRA 15Hz tune. I have room to add more power to the SDX or tune it higher, (more output) but this works for me in the room I’m in. We are able to use larger enclosures due to no shipping considerations. My cost $50 since I have everything on hand over the years of building. If I were to cost it out (considering the 15” SDX was still available) around $8-900. If I were to build a second sub, that would cut the cost in 1/2 for the second due to opting for using a pro amp running each sub off of each channel.

This in no way is to downplay the ULTRA, (I have had 5 of them in the past) and are great subs. Pro's and cons to consider. We never count our time over here in DIY. Many of us would be very hard pressed to come up with a finished project looking as good as the ULTRA also. The SDX driver is what I would call a SQ driver like the ULTRA. The 12" SDX costs what some popular 18"s do. Very heavy driver like the ULTRA also.

Thanks for that link Steve, Was very helpful.

Quick browse through the diy comparisons and i like the look of the 15hz charts of the Re Audio MX18D2 MX 18, RE Audio XXX, and the Mach 5 UXL-18. Aesthetics Are a big plus and very important to me as i find the Piano Black SVS i own right now gorgeous so with that said i dont mind spending some extra cash on a nice cabinet, preferably with rounded edges. I plan to take the cabinets to an auto repair place and have them shot with piano black for that professional look. Also love the metal grill on my SVS anyone know of a source for something like that for a diy build?

1241floorplan_zpsc8d41617.jpg
This shows the highlighted areas open to my sub(s). Ceilings are 8ft and is quite a big area as the stairway has full 20ft height.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niavlys View Post

3 months ago i was in the same boat as you but with an SB13 Ultra. Wanted to add another SB13 but decided to take the DIY route with a sealed UXL-18. I ended up with a box 22"X 22"X 20"deep, not that much bigger than my SB13. I don't regret my choice, the UXL has ton of bass and it's a huge step forward when watching movies compared to the SB13. And according to DataBass, it should also do better than your PB13 Ultra.
I see you're in Canada, don't forget to check the shipping costs and brokerage fees if you're buying drivers from the US. Mach 5 audio are based in Canada and shipping costs are included in their prices.
You can see my build here.

Thanks Niavlys, I notice you came from a sealed unit prior. Iam a little worried with what iam reading about jumping from a ported to a sealed but the sealed is so much more enticing as its smaller and more plug and play. Im a little intimidated by the thought of tuning. Heck ive owned my svs for a year and am too afraid to go into anymore measurments than chucking the port foam in and slapping it to 15hz.

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post #13 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Studio 60s won't be a big leap in the midbass either. For the price they go for you could build some very capable mains. Another option is you could keep your existing speakers and build some midbass modules. Just know that your system will only be as good as its weakest link. A potent sub with great midbass then mids and highs that can't follow suit will eventually reveal itself.

Haha Wish i didnt have to hear that! The studios are so nice to look at i had hoped they were going to be my be all end all speakers. Thanks for the Mid Bass Module reccomendation, first ive heard of this. How does one connect these along side a 7.1 surround system. Would you have to rewire the cross over from the monitor 7's?
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post #14 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 09:12 PM
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You keep hanging in these parts and the crazy becomes the norm. With the MBM, you have a driver typically pro with a light cone, low inductance, high sensitivty and you implement it with your Mains or a split lfe. With your Mains you need an external crossover and the MBM plays lower than the Mains but not lower than the lfe. Hsu research an MBM and the range is 50-150hz. When used in a split lfe configuration, you'd have subs that are most capable for ultra low frequencies but don't extend very well into the midbass. In that scenario the MBMs would take over from the midbass on up where the bottom dweller subs don't do so well, again using an external crossover.
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post #15 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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You keep hanging in these parts and the crazy becomes the norm. With the MBM, you have a driver typically pro with a light cone, low inductance, high sensitivty and you implement it with your Mains or a split lfe. With your Mains you need an external crossover and the MBM plays lower than the Mains but not lower than the lfe. Hsu research an MBM and the range is 50-150hz. When used in a split lfe configuration, you'd have subs that are most capable for ultra low frequencies but don't extend very well into the midbass. In that scenario the MBMs would take over from the midbass on up where the bottom dweller subs don't do so well, again using an external crossover.

With the PB-13 Ultra Flat to atleast 200HZ am i really going to notice a difference over my current setup? I mean it seems to me like the SVS is capable of outputting reference midbass. Or are we talking about running these Mid Bass Modules crazy hot at this 150HZ to give the chest hit?
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post #16 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hybridfive View Post

With the PB-13 Ultra Flat to atleast 200HZ am i really going to notice a difference over my current setup? I mean it seems to me like the SVS is capable of outputting reference midbass. Or are we talking about running these Mid Bass Modules crazy hot at this 150HZ to give the chest hit?
I'd like to know too as I'm on the same boat.
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post #17 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 09:41 PM
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Depending on where your subs are placed they may not yield the best response in terms of midbass even if they are capable of it. But yes, running MBMs does allow you to run it crazy hot where you can get just the chest thump without the mids/highs ripping your head off.
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post #18 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 09:46 PM
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1. inuke6000dsp amp
2. FOUR subs dual 4 ohm, si ht18
3. two big ported cabs

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1490514/want-to-start-diying-big-room-what-can-i-go-with/60#post_23816903

:-)

svs is awesome, but if you can cut wood, you can crush it.
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post #19 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

1. inuke6000dsp amp
2. FOUR subs dual 4 ohm, si ht18
3. two big ported cabs

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1490514/want-to-start-diying-big-room-what-can-i-go-with/60#post_23816903

:-)

svs is awesome, but if you can cut wood, you can crush it.

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post #20 of 42 Old 12-07-2013, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

1. inuke6000dsp amp
2. FOUR subs dual 4 ohm, si ht18
3. two big ported cabs

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1490514/want-to-start-diying-big-room-what-can-i-go-with/60#post_23816903

:-)

svs is awesome, but if you can cut wood, you can crush it.

eek.gif That’s like 4 ULTRAS at 20hz and 5 at 16hz. About a single ULTRA at 40hz. lol smile.gif
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hyb Quick browse through the diy comparisons and i like the look of the 15hz charts of the Re Audio MX18D2 MX 18, RE Audio XXX, and the Mach 5 UXL-18. Aesthetics Are a big plus and very important to me as i find the Piano Black SVS i own right now gorgeous so with that said i dont mind spending some extra cash on a nice cabinet, preferably with rounded edges. I plan to take the cabinets to an auto repair place and have them shot with piano black for that professional look. Also love the metal grill on my SVS anyone know of a source for something like that for a diy build?

Flat bass can take some getting used to, much of that can and will be room dependent though. If I were still in my larger suckout room, I might throw my sealed 18”s in the mix also and see what I could come up with without shaping them in the lower freq’s? and then maybe I would??

EDIT> Good idea on having that finish done for you, it’s definitely a hard one if you want perfection. Guys do it though. Could you let us know the cost if you’re inclined?

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post #21 of 42 Old 12-08-2013, 05:17 PM
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No it's not. Here is the SPL that 4 sealed LMS's make:



Giving each driver 162.5 liters of box space and 2000watts. (134db above 34hz)

Which is EXACTLY what I run, and is just over halfway the output of my system (as of this moment).

All of this without room gain, of course.

verses the quad ported SI's: Impressive for the money though...

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post #22 of 42 Old 12-08-2013, 05:44 PM
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Here's a single SVS for comparison: (The pink line it couldn't do.)


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post #23 of 42 Old 12-08-2013, 06:04 PM
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Here's a single SVS for comparison: (The pink line it couldn't do.)



Yes I was told to add +6dB to the numbers over at Data due to 1m versus 2m measurement compared to WinISD sim difference. Something isn’t adding up right though and I sent a PM to LTD early today because it’s been bugging me for a few months or so now. I understand the/your graph fully but this is what I have been going by with adding 6dB on top of the measurement. http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=55&mset=53 Thanks for stepping in. I have been pulling my hair out trying to fig what's up! Thoughts?

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post #24 of 42 Old 12-08-2013, 06:39 PM
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Say I take the 15” SDX sealed over at Data in a undersized enclosure and compare it to the PB13-ULTRA in the sealed mode over at Data, the SDX takes it out. http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=5&mset=38 If I compare it to the sealed 12” SB-NSD, it takes 3-4 of them to equal the 15” SDX. http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=5&mset=38 I have asked for a sim of the SDX in a 3 cf internal enclosure and I would doubt it would translate out to what's on Data if I ad 6dB to Data numbers?? although there will be a power difference since Josh most likely was using ??++ for power.

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post #25 of 42 Old 12-09-2013, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok Guys so i think ive, narrowed it down to a pair of Mach 5 UXL-18 in vented boxes. Powered by 2x behringer ep4000's. I figure tuned to 15HZ but not too sure how this tuning thing works. Open to suggestions. I want the boxes to be large enough to get as close as optimal bass, but no bigger than necessary. Small as possible.

Ideally i'd love a flat pack box because of the ease of install. But looking around i cant find any that i like the look of. Id prefer rounded edges and that makes me think it will need to custom. Little intimidated as ive never built a subbox before.

Plan is to order/build the boxes get them finished and ready for drivers. Upon approval from the missus on acceptance of the boxes in the house smile.gif ill order the drivers and amps.

Any help, input, or feedback would be greatly appreciated.
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post #26 of 42 Old 12-09-2013, 06:39 PM
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I doubt you'll find a flat pack box of that specific size. Post #4 seems like your best bet and maybe have a shop build them for you. An outsource option I've read good things about is www.caraudiofactory.com
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post #27 of 42 Old 12-09-2013, 06:58 PM
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"Ok Guys so i think ive, narrowed it down to a pair of Mach 5 UXL-18 in vented boxes. Powered by 2x behringer ep4000's."

decent choice.

one better might be the inuke3000dsp, which gets you the dsp. on ebay for $269 or so right now. one for each.
enclosure: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1489541/large-ported-dayton-ho18s#post_23711347

port would need to be extended somewhat for a lower tuning, but that can be figured out simply enough.

there are countless ways of doing a cab about that size with about your target tuning. you could also do a sonotube if you like the missile silo look. whatever you can dream up.

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post #28 of 42 Old 12-09-2013, 07:01 PM
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"verses the quad ported SI's: Impressive for the money though..."

not sure what you are modeling there. this is quad si's with 4400 watts total in martysubs with 17hz tuning.

this is what folks are building and running. perhaps surprisingly, 4 marty's actually do exceed 4 lms ultras in and around the tuning frequency of the martysubs.


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post #29 of 42 Old 12-09-2013, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

I doubt you'll find a flat pack box of that specific size. Post #4 seems like your best bet and maybe have a shop build them for you. An outsource option I've read good things about is www.caraudiofactory.com

Following something like that UXL-18 is definatly feasable. Showed the girl 900x900px-LL-3b8aeca5_SAM_3309.jpeg she flipped out! Said two of those are a no go. Haha, ive got some convincing to do. 30" deep is a bit more than id like. As you can see from my current pics the SVS protrudes into my living room a little more than i want right now let alone another 3" plus grill.

I guess when you see it written as only 3 inches it dosnt seem so bad tho!
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post #30 of 42 Old 12-09-2013, 07:23 PM
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Lol put a table cloth over it with a plant on top...bam! Instantly decor friendly.
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