Just another dual sealed LMS 5400 build - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 114 Old 12-12-2013, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll start off by saying a year ago I would have never thought I would be going down the DIY road but you hang around this forum long enough and you start to get crazy ideas! The plan is to build 2 sealed enclosures for the LMS Ultra, and the goal is to be flat to 10-12 hz.

Last year this time I was content with my velo DD15 and DD12, but I felt I was missing out on something. All this talk about single digits this, and 120db that etc. I started to hear about this guy Mark Seaton. So I joined the submersive thread and decided I was going to sell my velo's and get a couple F2's. I wanted to hear what all the hype was about.

While I was waiting for the velo's to sell I did a little more reading and started to see the LMS 5400 thrown around a lot! One day I came across a thread were this guy had EIGHT OF THEM!! Maybe you've know of this guy?! (That was said very sarcastically, if you don't know who Notnyt is......you live in a hole) I thought to my self "this is so F-ing bada$$, I gotta have this set up" At that moment I knew the LMS 5400 was going to be my new sub. Some other very worthy builds....Edoggrc51 quad set up, lukeamdman quad set up. Reading these threads and many many others on the 5400 just confirmed my decision, I was going to start with a dual sealed setup.

This is wear I'm at now......

-I have 1 Tc sounds LMS 5400 ultra (will be getting the second very soon)



-I have 2 QSC rmx 4050hd's. 4000 watts at 4 ohm bridged. One per cabinet




-A mini DSP open drc-an for the EQ


-All the appropriate cables and wire

-A calibrated UMIK-1 from cross spectrum labs, REW installed (still need to learn how to use it)



-5 sheets of 3/4 MDF for the boxes. I probably won't need all 5, I just bought them.


As you can see I'm pretty much ready. I would like to have some of the experts around here review what I'm about to do. I think I have a grasp on it but I only want to do it once. I'm open to comments and encourage them.

Im going to go with sealed enclosures to get the low low stuff. From reading so much on this driver and the enclosures people were building, I decided to shoot for a 3.5 cubed box. After a quad baffle (don't know if it's considered a actual quad baffle as I will have the driver completely recessed so it will only be screwed to two pieces of 3/4 MDF), a triple back, bracing and driver displacement, (I used .35) I ended up with 3.7^3. I figure I could use stuffing to fill up the remaining .2. Can someone chime in on QTC? I don't even know if I need the stuffing. The O.D. Is 22 1/2 cubed. I did not model it in WINSLD because I see so many others using the same design..... 4000 watts 4 cubes.

Here are some sketch ups of the box

700


700

Am I going over kill on the box? I want the box to be very solid/heavy so that it doesnt walk around or vibrate. Im even kicking around the idea of doubling up the sides and top/bottom. This will make the box very heavy though, im not sure if its needed.
Hav'nt decided on the finish yet, but im leaning towards piano black!

They will be going into a 1800^3 room that is not sealed, and at this time not treated. It opens up to the kitchen, wich is probably 1500^3 or so. Here are some skethups of the room.




Its a funky layout but I have to make it work.

Let me know what you guys think. The time frame on this project Is up in the air, between my 8 month old son, the wife, and work ill only be able to tinker on it here and there.
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post #2 of 114 Old 12-12-2013, 09:47 AM
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This sounds like an awesome plan! You've got all the right stuff and overkill is the only way to do this right IMO. My 2 SI 18" boxes have taken me from March/April until now to have both of them in the living room and that is without veneer and grills! Like you, I have minimal tinker time. Stick with it though and the results will be well worth it!
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post #3 of 114 Old 12-12-2013, 09:51 AM
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Awesome!

Nothing like an LMSU! cool.gif

You are lucky to have one. Mine has been backordered for weeks, GRRRRRRR.mad.gif

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post #4 of 114 Old 12-12-2013, 09:54 AM
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Oh man, this is shaping up very well. Looking good!

Definitely watching this one.

The world needs more LMS-U's... for everyone ... and get Joe his too! tongue.gif

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post #5 of 114 Old 12-12-2013, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Awesome!

Nothing like an LMSU! cool.gif

You are lucky to have one. Mine has been backordered for weeks, GRRRRRRR.mad.gif[/

Yea I had to wait 3 weeks to get the one I have. I'm still recovering from all the other purchases for this build so it might be a little bit before I get the second one. The funny thing is about he one I have is that it doesn't have the "TC" logo silk screened on the cone. I called parts express and they said the batch my driver came from didn't have it. Kinda bummed me out because I want to represent, plus when I do get my second I want them to match. Oh well right?

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post #6 of 114 Old 12-12-2013, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^jacked that post all up!

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post #7 of 114 Old 12-12-2013, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post

^^^jacked that post all up!

It happens.smile.gif

Yes, there have been numerous alterations to them in various revisions. My first has the coveted titanium cone. The seconds has the black aluminum, bummer. Now they are all that way. I also have one red and one silver basket.
That is why I chose to hide them. That is what happens when you don't get them all at the same time. But, I am lucky to have them and enjoy them thoroughly.

I am looking forward to your finished product. You will be in bass bliss!

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post #8 of 114 Old 12-12-2013, 10:16 AM
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Do it!

Since you're not going dual-opposed, there's no such thing as too much bracing.
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post #9 of 114 Old 12-12-2013, 11:38 AM
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WOW! Nice long term thinking. This is gonna be good! cool.gif

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post #10 of 114 Old 12-12-2013, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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WOW! Nice long term thinking. This is gonna be good! cool.gif

Long term is right! I can deal with work and this build but the wife and kid take up all my time smile.gif (not a bad thing)

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post #11 of 114 Old 12-12-2013, 12:30 PM
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Excellent choice. And good luck on your build. Also love the driver to infant pic. smile.gif
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post #12 of 114 Old 12-13-2013, 09:44 AM
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Also love the driver to infant pic. smile.gif
hahaha That pic is superb biggrin.gif
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post #13 of 114 Old 12-14-2013, 06:05 PM
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Nice. I just built 2 of my 3 LMS 5400 boxes and only have a pair of reinforcement in the middle of the box going horizontal and vertical (think Tic-Tac-Toe board). I built mine out of 3/4" plywood and doubled up on the front mounting board and then added a third outside of those that goes around the mounting flange of the subwoofer. Anyway, my box is heavy but likely not even close to yours and mine doesn't move or walk a bit. So I'd say you are going overkill on the internal baffles but we knew you were going overkill on this project when you purchased the LMS-5400 in the first place. biggrin.gif

Enjoy!

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post #14 of 114 Old 12-14-2013, 08:12 PM
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On berber carpet it will walk all over the place at infrasonic frequencies and high excursion. Regular carpet, not so much.

Make sure you break them in, until they loosen up, you can lose about 3db or so of power when they are fresh. Even then... it still takes 2-3 months of normal play to fully loosen up.

Here's how I break mine in:




You can see my box shaking here, on regular carpet (it's triple layer baffle)



That sucks about the logo, retarded at this price, so they are selling CLONES or something now??? frown.gif

The Velodyne's are very musical, I used to have a servo too. I sort of miss it in a way; the only problem is that they don't go very loud, their +Series is a bit better, but still...
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post #15 of 114 Old 12-15-2013, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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On berber carpet it will walk all over the place at infrasonic frequencies and high excursion. Regular carpet, not so much.

Make sure you break them in, until they loosen up, you can lose about 3db or so of power when they are fresh. Even then... it still takes 2-3 months of normal play to fully loosen up.

Here's how I break mine in:




You can see my box shaking here, on regular carpet (it's triple layer baffle)



That sucks about the logo, retarded at this price, so they are selling CLONES or something now??? frown.gif

The Velodyne's are very musical, I used to have a servo too. I sort of miss it in a way; the only problem is that they don't go very loud, their +Series is a bit better, but still...

Lol it actually ran through my head that I got a clone, just for a second though. I know parts express wouldn't let that happen. I emailed TC sounds about the silk screen to see if they could at least send me a sticker to put on, no response from them. I just hope the next one I get doesn't have it either, so they match.

I loved the velodyne for sound quality, they were very accurate, but you are right they just didn't go loud, or low enough.

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post #16 of 114 Old 12-16-2013, 04:57 PM
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Sweet build you got going brotha!

Nice to see anothe MINI DRC out in the wild. smile.gif
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post #17 of 114 Old 12-17-2013, 10:06 AM
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I second the tic-tac-toe method of bracing suggestion. It'll be lighter and more effective. Here is an example of the bracing I made for my boxes. It works much better than the bracing I made that is similar to what you drew up. I just make sure there is no more than a 5" span between each of the legs that contact the enclosure walls. It's probably hard to see, but there is a hole in the center to allow the magnet to fit through. My enclosures that use this style bracing are almost perfectly inert with only a single ply of 3/4" MDF. It also is less wasteful since I use scrap pieces of MDF instead of cutting full pieces like you are planning on doing.





BTW, I like your bike from what I can see at least. Looks like at least a 5" - 6" Fox fork, 8" rotors and DT Swiss locking QR levers. Looks like a fairly aggressive bike with a somewhat slack head tube angle for better downhill stability.
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post #18 of 114 Old 12-17-2013, 11:33 AM
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might not want to leave the pole vents covered when breaking in
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post #19 of 114 Old 12-17-2013, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

might not want to leave the pole vents covered when breaking in

As in don't put them on carpet? I'll probably just load them in the box and break them in the way they will live.
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Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

I second the tic-tac-toe method of bracing suggestion. It'll be lighter and more effective. Here is an example of the bracing I made for my boxes. It works much better than the bracing I made that is similar to what you drew up. I just make sure there is no more than a 5" span between each of the legs that contact the enclosure walls. It's probably hard to see, but there is a hole in the center to allow the magnet to fit through. My enclosures that use this style bracing are almost perfectly inert with only a single ply of 3/4" MDF. It also is less wasteful since I use scrap pieces of MDF instead of cutting full pieces like you are planning on doing.





BTW, I like your bike from what I can see at least. Looks like at least a 5" - 6" Fox fork, 8" rotors and DT Swiss locking QR levers. Looks like a fairly aggressive bike with a somewhat slack head tube angle for better downhill stability.

I'll kick that bracing idea around....

The bike is a 2010 specialized stumpy comp. since those photos I have sold it. Life kinda took over with the kid and all, so I sold it to help fund this build. At least now I'm at home building subs instead of being out in a trail for 3-4 hours.

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post #20 of 114 Old 12-17-2013, 12:49 PM
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I'll leave the speaker technical expertise to others on this board, but since I see you have an infant which makes you a new father, so in that spirit, may I offer some fatherly advice? Don't have that infant ANYWHERE near loud sounds. An infant's hearing is not yet well developed and they are much more sensitive to loud sounds than adults. The problem is, if sound reaches a painful level they don't have any way to tell you that, other than crying, and it may not be obvious what the baby is trying to tell you.

Please accept this advice in the spirit in which it was intended, one good dad to another. smile.gif

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #21 of 114 Old 12-17-2013, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post

As in don't put them on carpet? I'll probably just load them in the box and break them in the way they will live.

That works too, I'm just impatient biggrin.gif

I was actually using the resonant frequency of the woofer in free-air so the ohms were way higher than 1-ohms (but that's a secret....shhhhhhh! wink.gif ) and thus heat was nil. But if you pick the wrong freq, then it could get much worse.

I was also monitoring it remotely with a laser thermometer. Fancy-Pants-mode, activated!!!! wink.gif
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post #22 of 114 Old 12-17-2013, 02:40 PM
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Fancy-Pants-mode, activated!!!! wink.gif

ROTFL

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post #23 of 114 Old 01-02-2014, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Small update

Today I ordered the second LMS-5400 for this build. Bummer is there out of stock till the 15th. I'm still trying to find time to start building the boxes. Awhile back I installed new trim (baseboard, door trim) throughout my pad, and I still haven't finished painting it. The wife is asking that I finish one project before I start another. "Happy wife, happy life" right? smile.gif

I am also second guessing my box design, or should I say "type". I'm kinda thinking about vented/ported, but don't know much about them. I know they are 10db over a sealed at the tuned frequency, but how accurate are they? My listening taste is 80/20 music is the 80, so I'm looking for pretty accurate playback. How high can they be crossed over? My Klipsch RF-83's seem to lack in the mid bass so I will probably need to cross them over high, 100hz maybe. I still would like to play the low stuff so how big do they need to be for like a 15hz tune? The foot print can't be to much bigger the 24"x24".

Maybe I'm over thinking it all and I should just stick with the sealed setup. I am looking forward to being floored by these and I want the optimum design.

I came from a DD-12 and 15, (1250 watts each) can any one tell me how much louder 2 5400's with 4000 watts to each be?

That's all for now....hopefully next time I can show pics of a little dust!

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post #24 of 114 Old 01-03-2014, 04:13 AM
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If you ever did decide to go vented, the dual PR route would be a nice option imo but at the cost of the PR’s. It does keep the enclosure size down with the ability to tune low. I had a real bias against the PR route until I got desperate to try something new instead of sealed or reg vented with size being a big issue. It worked out very well with a SDX driver and their PR’s, very nice SQ, output and response graph. Here is a post by another member using the same driver you have though and seems quite impressed. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1496932/fanless-or-quietest-with-fan-amplifier-to-run-diy-tc-sounds-lms-5400-18-with-dual-prs
Quote:
This particular design was inspired by one of the folks here in avs and really it is the best sub I have ever owned. I have tried the Danley DTS-20, Dual JLf113s and also several other commercial subs like the SVS. I highly respect the offerings from JL and SVS. One thing about the PR design is that it is very important to use the correct setting for the subsonic HP filter. I learned from mistakes and don' t want others to go through the same thing. I used the simulation tools available and also used ETF to get the correct setting for the HP filter. The LMS is an amazing driver. Check out the measurements here that should give you an idea on what to expect. I worked closely with Ilkka when we arrived at this design and the CE4000 amps (suggested by Thy). Many folks contributed to this final design and I think after this was built there were several others who ventured with very good success rates. Good luck. Let me know if you have any specific questions.
Regards,-Jai

Of course the dual sealed option is a well proven option and since you already have one, the best case could be made for another with some shaping in the lower freq’s.. dual sealed would be stellar. Anyway, what a nice problem to have.. deciding what to do with a second LMS-54 smile.gif

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post #25 of 114 Old 01-03-2014, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
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Maybe I'm over thinking it all and I should just stick with the sealed setup. I am looking forward to being floored by these and I want the optimum design.

I came from a DD-12 and 15, (1250 watts each) can any one tell me how much louder 2 5400's with 4000 watts to each be?

That's all for now....hopefully next time I can show pics of a little dust!

I like and have owned several Velodyne products over the years. The DD series is damn good, but not for the price point..or at least compared to what you can do DIY.

I went down that road and eventually kept upgrading until the LMSUs I have now. I have two sealed and one in a LOWARHORN. I can't even imagine going back.

One sealed LMSU is in another league when compared to multiples of DD-15s and 12s. Two LMSUs is just icing on the cake.

One LMSU is roughly equal to TWO DD-18+s with the new drivers,etc (depending on where and how you measure). The older DDs with lesser and smaller drivers are blown into the weeds with ease. So, it would not be a stretch to say that one properly powered LMSU would outgun 3 or more DD-15s with ease.

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post #26 of 114 Old 01-04-2014, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post

music is the 80%, so I'm looking for pretty accurate playback. How high can they be crossed over? 100hz maybe.

I came from a DD-12 and 15, (1250 watts each) can any one tell me how much louder 2 5400's with 4000 watts to each be?

Maybe I'm over thinking it all

Yes you are over thinking it. The 5400's will eat the DD-12 alive.

The 5400's are the highest SQ driver known to man (that I know of at least). I used to have small Velodyne servo's too.

I've crossed them at 200hz successfully, in fact that's what I'm currently running at, you'd never know because they are right next to the fronts and it just blends in.
100hz shouldn't be a problem at all.


Just stick with the sealed boxes for now.
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post #27 of 114 Old 01-04-2014, 08:51 PM
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Minogue approves of this thread.

Apparently she is a basshead too... see?


"until I find the frequency I like" wink.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #28 of 114 Old 01-04-2014, 09:09 PM
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"I know they are 10db over a sealed at the tuned frequency, but how accurate are they?"

if you can't tell the difference, would that be good enough?

here was a test of three alignments:



http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387178/archaeas-kansas-city-blind-subwoofer-shootout-2012

"As to the accuracy of the blind voters on whether they were listening to a ported or sealed or horn sub - it's pretty clear the majority of enthusiasts cannot reliably tell the difference between the different sub designs in blind auditioning as the majority only got it right twice out of seven subs."

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #29 of 114 Old 01-04-2014, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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"I know they are 10db over a sealed at the tuned frequency, but how accurate are they?"

if you can't tell the difference, would that be good enough?

here was a test of three alignments:



http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387178/archaeas-kansas-city-blind-subwoofer-shootout-2012

"As to the accuracy of the blind voters on whether they were listening to a ported or sealed or horn sub - it's pretty clear the majority of enthusiasts cannot reliably tell the difference between the different sub designs in blind auditioning as the majority only got it right twice out of seven subs."

How big of a box would it have to be to get to 15hz? I've seen the Marty sub, G-horn and those are to big. I think I should just go with what I initially planned, I already have the big amps for sealed. So now my question is how do I figure QTC of a box? I hear you want the box to be .707 QTC? The box I have designed ends up being 3.7^3 with the driver installed, does anyone know what the QTC of that is?

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post #30 of 114 Old 01-05-2014, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post

Small update

Today I ordered the second LMS-5400 for this build. Bummer is there out of stock till the 15th. I'm still trying to find time to start building the boxes. Awhile back I installed new trim (baseboard, door trim) throughout my pad, and I still haven't finished painting it. The wife is asking that I finish one project before I start another. "Happy wife, happy life" right? smile.gif

I am also second guessing my box design, or should I say "type". I'm kinda thinking about vented/ported, but don't know much about them. I know they are 10db over a sealed at the tuned frequency, but how accurate are they? My listening taste is 80/20 music is the 80, so I'm looking for pretty accurate playback. How high can they be crossed over? My Klipsch RF-83's seem to lack in the mid bass so I will probably need to cross them over high, 100hz maybe. I still would like to play the low stuff so how big do they need to be for like a 15hz tune? The foot print can't be to much bigger the 24"x24".

Maybe I'm over thinking it all and I should just stick with the sealed setup. I am looking forward to being floored by these and I want the optimum design.

I came from a DD-12 and 15, (1250 watts each) can any one tell me how much louder 2 5400's with 4000 watts to each be?

That's all for now....hopefully next time I can show pics of a little dust!
For an 80/20 music/HT split, and most accurate playback, I would "definitely" remain "sealed"! The LMS has more than enough superfluous excursion to do both with equal aplomb, especially two of them. Dual-opposed my friend...Dual-opposed. If all you want from vented is a 15Hz bottom then you will sacrifice below that as the driver(s) unload, but the SPL should be "highly" impressive from 15 - 100Hz. It really is an abomination to vent those babies IMO, When they first appeared, the qes and qts. parameters were so low that it was entirely possible to stuff two of them into a 4 - 5 cu. ft. and still retain a very low Qtc. (near .5). I would venture to say that after about 80 hours of burn-in, the qes and qts were likely even a bit lower than factory specs. It was always my plan to do a 2x18 LMS, but they still cost so much!

"Frequency response is NOT efficiency response."

 

Klipsch RB-35's main

Klipsch RB-35's surround

Acoustech HT-65 center

Cerwin-Vega CV-2800

 

Subwoofer

B&C 21SW152-4  [21" critical-Q]

 

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