DIY 12W7 subs - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 30 Old 12-14-2013, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

Hello all, new to this forum. Was hoping for some USEFUL input on my project.

 

Here's the scoop,

I have 4 pairs of Pioneer DSS-9's that I will be combining into one gigantic pair this spring.

This will be a dedicated music system. I usually listen to rock.

 

My stereo includes:

DBX DX5 cd player, going into a cx-3 receiver.

The receiver's effects loop feeds a 400XG program route selector.

In the route selector, signal goes through a 3BX-DS, a 5BX-DS, then into a 14/10 EQ.

The outputs from the CX-3 get split, then run into a 120X-DS subharmonic synth/subwoofer crossover.

The 120X has it's own outputs to a subwoofer amp, and the other outputs feed a bank of BX-3 amps.

 

My original intention was to use one of the BX-3's to power my DIY subs, and power my  DIY mains with two of the others.

 

The subs.... this is where I'm really looking for input.

 

I have 2 JL Audio 12W7's that I'm looking to use for this project.

I've browsed a lot of older threads, and would appreciate if everyone would stay on topic and not try to point me to any other subs of their preference. I also appreciate you not bashing JL.

Hate all you want, but the W7 is a pretty BA sub driver. I've had many, many systems of many brands, my ears tend to come back to JL. They sound more musical than most others to my ear.

My original intention was to go with 13W6v2s, but as luck would have it, I ended up with the pair of 12s for cheaper.

 

Ok, so now that we have it out of the way that I already HAVE (and am using) this pair of subs....

I originally wanted to power with the BX-3. When I hooked it up to them, they just don't have enough balls to power these power hungry subs. The amp is rated at 300-400W RMS depending on the literature you're looking at, and 900W "dynamic" power output.

 

This got me looking into other amps. The dayton audio 1000w got some bad press, and claims of it only putting out around 500w worried me, when a BASH 500w is cheaper.

I have bash 500w's built into my infinity IL-60's in my HT system, and they've been very potent performers.

The JL's are very power hungry though.... much more than the infinity subs.

 

So, I kept looking around. What I ended up with is a pair of sunfire true plate amps.

Not sure I'm going to go with these, the boards are anemic looking, and have the input sensing signal issue.

If you get them to come out of standby, they do seem to push the w7's pretty authoritatively.

 

Anyhow, my mains.... there will be 8 graphite 12's playing from 30-600hz.

 

My intent with the subs was to crossover low, and try to get essentially flat down to 20hz.

I have WinISD for a design program.

I was looking at around a 4.5 cube box, ported at 22hz, shows a pretty flat response.

This would be for EACH sub, as I'm intending on doing them as a stereo pair.

 

I called JL. They said don't do it, and kept trying to push me back into a small, sealed box.

Sealed boxes don't plot very flat very low. They kept trying to push me into the "gains" I'd get from a smaller box tuned higher, I think they totally didn't get the "I'm trying to get flat, down to 20hz" thru their heads.

Or the "size isn't really an issue for me", when it came to talking port length.

 

Has anyone experience with these in larger boxes, at home?

Does the driver have trouble playing in a box this big?

Maybe WinISD isn't telling me right? It shows the ideal curve I was hoping for, with the specs I listed.

 

Again, I'm not looking for alternative subs. ONLY BOX SUGGESTIONS.

I don't want to do sonotubes, these will end up needing to be aesthetically pleasing, but can be on the large side. I've had several W7s, many other JL subs, and many other brands. I'm happy with the performance I've seen from these subs.

 

I am open to alternative amp suggestions, however.

Wishing O audio still offered their 500w BASH plate, as the parametric EQ would be oh so nice (my infinities have it, and it can make a huge difference), but again, think the W7 needs more power.

 

Anyone have any useful input for me?

What about the sunfire plates/12w7 combo?

Would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks for reading!

fiftyone50 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 30 Old 12-14-2013, 07:46 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,821
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 808
this is the 12w7 with something like 29mm excursion right?

if so, you could even go larger and tune a little lower and still be fine. 6 cubic feet at 18hz looks pretty good from over here. 4.5 cubes at 22hz looks fine too, just leaves a little on the table.

with re of 2.4, I'm not sure if that is best described as a 2 ohm driver or 4, but an inuke 3000dsp (the dsp on the inukes is quite nice) could handle 2.4 ohms re and give you something around 1000 watts per side. there is a good company selling them on ebay for ~$250 delivered.

be sure to use a protective high pass filter and I don't see any problems at all.

perhaps the jl audio guys that you spoke with were confusing all the gain that you get in a typical car with the lack of gain that you tend to get in a home until you start down under 30hz or so. in any case...if the driver can handle the power and the specs are accurate, it can handle the box.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #3 of 30 Old 12-15-2013, 12:07 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

Yes, I believe they are something like 29mm xmax.

 

Where would I use a high pass filter?

My mains are full range, and the sub amps would be fed directly from an electronic low pass crossover.

 

JL said I might start to run into mechanical issues from the driver unloading because of a box size so far large from spec...

I just kind of assumed the driver would perform how I wanted it to, in the application I intend it for, which is not even close to the same environment they'd likely want someone in a car to install it in to be happy with their system.

I also think someone at JL should have probably had a better answer for me, I would expect they've tried the w7 in all sizes of boxes.

 

I think the response curve at 4.5ft/3 @ 22hz I would be happy with, don't see any need to go bigger on the box...

Pretty much flat down to 20hz....

 

 

Anyone have any idea on RMS wattage of a sunfire plate? They say 2700W, but I assume that's a peak output.

The JL has a 3 ohm nominal voice coil. Not real sure what the impedance changes to when in action, but I've pushed them with 4 ohm rated amps in a vehicle setting before, with positive results.

 

I wish passive radiators weren't so expensive for the more "extreme" ones... ;)

fiftyone50 is offline  
post #4 of 30 Old 12-15-2013, 12:21 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,821
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 808
"Where would I use a high pass filter?"

at or just below the tuning point of the cab. the driver unloads below that and excursion skyrockets.

"I think the response curve at 4.5ft/3 @ 22hz I would be happy with, don't see any need to go bigger on the box..."

yeah...frequency response is only one reason to select a box size. the other is related to the size of the port. you want a port that is large enough that it will flow good air (not chuff or compress), but not so long that its resonance gets down into the passband. the larger the cab, the shorter the port can be for the same cross-sectional area.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #5 of 30 Old 12-15-2013, 03:57 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

I don't think getting port turbulence to a low level would be a problem.

 

I plotted your specs.. that looks pretty tasty also.... 

Would it be worth the extra size to the enclosure?

Being that power draw goes up massively that low, and how much power it would draw anyway.... hmmmmm

fiftyone50 is offline  
post #6 of 30 Old 12-15-2013, 04:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,335
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 135
I would go with the larger enclosure that LTD02 suggested as you don't want to look back in a month and have that "what if" feeling. Build the larger enclosure in order to extract the best performance possible! It's only a small bit larger compared to the 4.xcuft enclosure that you were originally considering. I think these JL 12/w7's will absolutely kick a**! I used to have a single JL 10/W7 in my car in a sealed enclosure and I absolutely loved it!

How large is your room? As long as its not huge, this will be a great setup!
Martycool007 is online now  
post #7 of 30 Old 12-15-2013, 06:06 AM
Member
 
mike d263's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
this sounds like an awesome project!

from a power stand point (I have owned a 12w7) they really like 750 watts rms. i'm the kind of guy that likes head room in a sub system. that being said this is what I would do. find an amp that can do 2400 watts rms. then make the pair 6 ohms and bridge the amp. because the amp is at 6 ohm the THD will be way less than it would be stereo. there would also be less heat generated this way.
if your not set on a plate amp
The QSC RMX2450 is a nice choice
8 ohms
FTC 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.1% THD =1500 W
they can be had cheap from ebay as well if price is an issue.

I own one of these and it really drives the hell out of my 13 w3's
mike d263 is offline  
post #8 of 30 Old 12-15-2013, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

The current room is not that big, I'd say something like 12'-14' X 20' and 8' ceilings 

This system will be way more than overkill for the room it's in.... someday I hope to actually build a room around this speaker system.

 

How loud are the fans on the inukes?

Right now I'm kinda leaning towards getting the sunfire plates completely refurbed.

Biggest concern there is overtaxing the sunfire plate, but they seem pretty powerful. I would think under most conditions, I wouldn't have them turned way up.

This sub 30hz territory is where I'm unfamiliar.... I know power and excursion become real concerns down this low.

I'm also not sure where the w7 impedance averages when it's in play.

 

I have a sanus euro rack with all the DBX gear on it.... but it's already 6' tall, and full. I'm not against an external amp, just running out of room to put them!

Wouldn't running 3 ohm stereo or 6 ohm bridged be the same power output and THD?

I do know I want to have stereo pair of smaller subs and not have them in the same enclosure.

I'm hoping having stereo subs in different locations, coupled with having a computerized EQ in my system will tame out the room modes.

 

I'm a big fan of JL's subs, (but not a "fanboy") I have an 8w7 and 500/1 in my lightning, it sounds f'n amazing for being a single 8.

Over the years I've had 10w3v3's, 12w3's, a couple 8w7s, 12w7s, and the big 13w7.

I've also gone thru fosgate power series, mtx's, alpine r's and x's, mb quarts, infinity, cerwin vega car subs, and acoustic research, sony, pioneer, vega,  mtx home subs (plus heard MANY other people's stuff)

The only ones that seemed to have the "thump" of a w7 to me, would have been the type x's.... but they're even more power hungry, and not as musical.

The next option I probably would have went to would have been infinity perfects... great sound and output, but the JL's sound a bit warmer/lively.

I really wanted to do 13w6v2's, but ended up only having $450 in the pair of 12w7s.

 

Overall, it's nice to be at a point in life of being able to enjoy music at home. Once upon a time, in the car was the only place I could have or listen to a system.

It's nice to no longer have that restriction. I can't fit beryllium ribbons in my vehicle. :/

 

Thanks everyone for the input

fiftyone50 is offline  
post #9 of 30 Old 12-15-2013, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

Does anyone have experience with the Earthquake s.l.a.p.s. passive radiators?

The 18" looks pretty interesting.

 

There's some definitives on ebay for $40 for the 10"s and $80 for the 14"s.

No clue about the mass on them, but does anyone have any idea if a pair of the 10"s or a single 14" would possibly work in this application?

The w7 has some surface area and stroke to it.

 

Last but not least.... transmission lines.... thoughts?

fiftyone50 is offline  
post #10 of 30 Old 12-16-2013, 04:31 AM
Member
 
mike d263's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
450 FOR A PAIR!!!!!! hahah that one hell of a deal
another reason for the bridge 6 ohm pair is so you get the same power to each woofer.
if one is getting a bet less power there would be some phase canceling there.
mike d263 is offline  
post #11 of 30 Old 12-16-2013, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

Actually it was 200 for one, and 225 for the second one. Gotta love craigslist!

 

I know I want stereo subs and not a single.... With an external amp, they could still be wired to 6 ohm.

 

However-

Wiring subs in series is something I've tried to steer away from also, after reading a paper on the JL website a few years ago.

If one driver fails, it's in link with the next driver. Dual voice coils are physically linked to the same motor, so no problem there, but separate subs is another story.

I think this becomes more applicable in a sub setting, where you're using the most power, and the lowest frequencies... something more likely to go wrong.

 

Made sense to me when I read it years ago, I haven't wired any subs in series ever since.

 

 

"

It is far less desirable to make subwoofer to subwoofer connections in series. Due to slight and unavoidable differences between speakers and the high likelihood of uneven loading between different speakers in a car, there will be slight differences in the mechanical behavior of the two speakers in series. These differences in movement result in the creation of induced voltage (called back EMF) by the speakers across the series connection. This effect causes a problem when two speakers that behave differently are connected in series because the speakers can modulate each other (cause each other to move), resulting in distortion. The problem becomes more serious as more speakers are connected in series.

The following is a good experiment to show the effect of back EMF: connect four speakers in series and short the positive and negative input leads of the series circuit. Push down on one cone with your hand; you will notice that the three other speakers will move in the opposite direction of the one you are pushing. Now, reconnect the speakers in parallel, short the inputs and push down on one cone. The speakers will not modulate each other because each one is shorted directly.

Back EMF modulation is not a concern when the voice coils of a dual voice coil speaker are wired in series to each other because the coils are physically coupled on one moving mass. Therefore, they cannot possibly modulate each other because they cannot move independently."

fiftyone50 is offline  
post #12 of 30 Old 12-16-2013, 01:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kimeran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 113
Glad to see someone using some JL drivers. You dont really see many using them even though they are quite solid performers. I am not sure how they compare to others but the Fathom and Gotham subs get consistently high praise.

I wish they built a few larger coned ones but that's my preference.

I would also recommend that you go with the slightly larger box that LTD suggested.

Trying to enjoy the simple things in life.

 

Steam: madbrayniak

Kimeran is online now  
post #13 of 30 Old 12-16-2013, 02:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
popalock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 3,199
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked: 463
Since size "isn't really an issue," have you considered a horn?

Something along the lines of a DTS-10 "inspired" horn with a 12W7 sounds like it could be serious...

I'm not spun up on hornresp myself, so I would have to defer, but I think that sounds like a seriously cool project.

 

popalock is offline  
post #14 of 30 Old 12-16-2013, 04:57 PM
Member
 
mike d263's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiftyone50 View Post

Actually it was 200 for one, and 225 for the second one. Gotta love craigslist!

I know I want stereo subs and not a single.... With an external amp, they could still be wired to 6 ohm.

However-
Wiring subs in series is something I've tried to steer away from also, after reading a paper on the JL website a few years ago.
If one driver fails, it's in link with the next driver. Dual voice coils are physically linked to the same motor, so no problem there, but separate subs is another story.
I think this becomes more applicable in a sub setting, where you're using the most power, and the lowest frequencies... something more likely to go wrong.

Made sense to me when I read it years ago, I haven't wired any subs in series ever since.


"
It is far less desirable to make subwoofer to subwoofer connections in series. Due to slight and unavoidable differences between speakers and the high likelihood of uneven loading between different speakers in a car, there will be slight differences in the mechanical behavior of the two speakers in series. These differences in movement result in the creation of induced voltage (called back EMF) by the speakers across the series connection. This effect causes a problem when two speakers that behave differently are connected in series because the speakers can modulate each other (cause each other to move), resulting in distortion. The problem becomes more serious as more speakers are connected in series.
The following is a good experiment to show the effect of back EMF: connect four speakers in series and short the positive and negative input leads of the series circuit. Push down on one cone with your hand; you will notice that the three other speakers will move in the opposite direction of the one you are pushing. Now, reconnect the speakers in parallel, short the inputs and push down on one cone. The speakers will not modulate each other because each one is shorted directly.
Back EMF modulation is not a concern when the voice coils of a dual voice coil speaker are wired in series to each other because the coils are physically coupled on one moving mass. Therefore, they cannot possibly modulate each other because they cannot move independently."


I no expert but if your making say a 1000 watt and the voltage is somewhere around 70 volts I don't see how a 2.3 volt back feed would over come the 70. I tried the experiment using my fluke 123 I graphed the voltage. the most I ever saw around 2.3 volts. I could see this being an issue if the subs where loaded in the same air space.
but like I said I am no expert.
if this was a huge issue then why do speaker manufactures produce preload enclosures with 2 ohm woofers in series. I see this all the time in the car audio world.
mike d263 is offline  
post #15 of 30 Old 12-17-2013, 02:09 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

Glad to see someone using some JL drivers. You dont really see many using them even though they are quite solid performers. I am not sure how they compare to others but the Fathom and Gotham subs get consistently high praise.

I wish they built a few larger coned ones but that's my preference.

I would also recommend that you go with the slightly larger box that LTD suggested.

 

The fathom/gotham are pretty much what I'd most just love to have.... haha.

Insanely overpriced. Shooting for something along those lines, but DIY cheaper.

 

Larger coned would be interesting.... JL tends to not just slap a bigger frame/cone on whatever motor structure they had on a size down woofer though.

There is a drastic difference between the 12w7 and 13w7. a 15 or 18 would absolutely be monstrous!

 

I'd considered trying to find an 18w3, I currently have a DBX 18" sub in like a 12ft3 box... but that sub can't take too much power, and isn't very high output.

 

I may end up trying the 6 cube box.....   I was hoping to decide what I wanted to do, and build them both at the same time.

Might have to scrap that and try one out first. Just easier to cut all the pieces at the same time :)

fiftyone50 is offline  
post #16 of 30 Old 12-17-2013, 02:23 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Since size "isn't really an issue," have you considered a horn?

Something along the lines of a DTS-10 "inspired" horn with a 12W7 sounds like it could be serious...

I'm not spun up on hornresp myself, so I would have to defer, but I think that sounds like a seriously cool project.

 

No, I haven't.

Size isn't really an issue, in that I can afford to make a 4.5ft3 box and be able to come up with the length for the port.

I'm not exactly set in a predetermined size of box, although I'm thinking I'd like to keep the driver front loaded, relatively narrow on the baffle, and the height shorter than 6'.

 

I've never messed around with horn loaded woofers.... and I like to watch the speakers bump.

Wouldn't horn loading a sub turn out something along the lines of bandpass?

Closest I'd considered would be transmission line, but I've never done one of those before, either.

 

I'd also considered trying a swiss cheese box.... as to say, no internal port length, just thick walled enclosure, with a lot of small holes in it.

I think it could be interesting. One box I'd plotted in WinISD showed with 100 1/8" holes (at wall thickness) had a vent mach of like .01

I kinda have a hard time believing it wouldn't whistle, but I guess with enough leaks....? 

 

I think ideally, passive radiator would be the way to go.... but with the cost of what I've got in the subs and amps already, not sure where to draw the line.

fiftyone50 is offline  
post #17 of 30 Old 12-17-2013, 02:47 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike d263 View Post


I no expert but if your making say a 1000 watt and the voltage is somewhere around 70 volts I don't see how a 2.3 volt back feed would over come the 70. I tried the experiment using my fluke 123 I graphed the voltage. the most I ever saw around 2.3 volts. I could see this being an issue if the subs where loaded in the same air space.
but like I said I am no expert.
if this was a huge issue then why do speaker manufactures produce preload enclosures with 2 ohm woofers in series. I see this all the time in the car audio world.

 

I can see the argument that the speakers would be behaving differently, and it being even worse of an issue if in common airspace, and they're physically fighting each other.

I've also heard some horror stories about one speaker going pop, and it taking out the next one in the series.

 

I'm not exactly an expert either, but I haven't been wiring subs in series for a long time. There was a much more extensive paper that I'd read a while back. It made sense to me.

I'll still wire guitar cabs series/parallel pairs, but the higher frequency range/lower power levels of this seem less likely to cause issue.

 

There's a lot of speaker manufacturers that make a lot of garbage.... particularly in the preloaded car audio enclosure world.

Not saying they won't work for however long, or sound however good to someone's ear.....  

fiftyone50 is offline  
post #18 of 30 Old 12-17-2013, 03:17 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

With any luck, I'll have the tower cabinets and sub cabinets started in the next month or so.

fiftyone50 is offline  
post #19 of 30 Old 12-17-2013, 03:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,335
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 135
I would like to see you build a large, ported enclosure for both of you 12w7's as nothing else outside of a horn will get the most output and Spl around the tuning frequency. Sealed with a pair of passive radiators would be ok, but I personally think that with anything besides a large, ported enclosure, you would be leaving performance on the table.
Martycool007 is online now  
post #20 of 30 Old 12-17-2013, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

I would think the PR enclosure should be able to get the same or better performance than a ported enclosure, with perhaps a bit more low end extension if done right?

 

I'm definitely trying to get pretty much the most out of them, but I'm not really concerned about SPL.

Looking for smooth response, and clarity.

 

I've heard PR systems that seemed to just get lower, and sound tighter/punchier than ported systems.

fiftyone50 is offline  
post #21 of 30 Old 12-17-2013, 11:53 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,821
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 808
"I've heard PR systems that seemed to just get lower, and sound tighter/punchier than ported systems."

who knows what you were hearing...in a properly designed system, i doubt that you'd be able to hear any difference.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #22 of 30 Old 12-18-2013, 12:42 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

I've only heard a couple PR systems that were, I assume, "properly designed".

They seemed tighter to my ear than most ported systems, but most of the ported systems weren't tuned for flat.

 

Something I definitely want to try sometime. Don't know if it will be this time though.

fiftyone50 is offline  
post #23 of 30 Old 01-01-2014, 04:41 PM
Member
 
morca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Nice build whit awesome driver,s !!
How is the project,not started?

I used a 13 W3 to build a 4 ord bandbass whit 3 vent,s,play,s really good.
Designed ok you can build a great vented sub Whit a JL driver,strange they say it will not work.
morca is offline  
post #24 of 30 Old 01-03-2014, 04:17 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

Not started yet...

it's 2 degrees in my shop ;)

 

JL markets their subs primarily for car audio use.... Every time I've had a question for a tech in re: car audio type install, they've been very helpful.

We all know how dangerous "internet informed" people can be. I assume the tech I talked to this last time just assumed I was an idiot and tried to steer me back towards their "comfort zone" of intended application of their product?

 

The issue wouldn't really be the fact of using the sub in a vented application, it's the volume of box I'm looking at, and desired tuning freq.

It makes sense to me that a larger volume box would have less of an air spring to it, couple that with lower tuning, and excursion could start getting to mechanical limits. Especially on gobs of power.

Plus the port length.... genuinely is a considerable factor. This large of an enclosure, and to keep low vent mach, etc. Gets to be a huge vent!

 

I wanted to do both enclosures simultaneously. This thread has me rethinking things though, that 6 cubes @ 18hz does look like a pretty nice response curve.

The more I think about it all, the more I think I want to do passive radiators also.

 

So many decisions!

fiftyone50 is offline  
post #25 of 30 Old 01-04-2014, 04:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,335
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiftyone50 View Post

Not started yet...
it's 2 degrees in my shop wink.gif

JL markets their subs primarily for car audio use.... Every time I've had a question for a tech in re: car audio type install, they've been very helpful.
We all know how dangerous "internet informed" people can be. I assume the tech I talked to this last time just assumed I was an idiot and tried to steer me back towards their "comfort zone" of intended application of their product?

The issue wouldn't really be the fact of using the sub in a vented application, it's the volume of box I'm looking at, and desired tuning freq.
It makes sense to me that a larger volume box would have less of an air spring to it, couple that with lower tuning, and excursion could start getting to mechanical limits. Especially on gobs of power.
Plus the port length.... genuinely is a considerable factor. This large of an enclosure, and to keep low vent mach, etc. Gets to be a huge vent!

I wanted to do both enclosures simultaneously. This thread has me rethinking things though, that 6 cubes @ 18hz does look like a pretty nice response curve.
The more I think about it all, the more I think I want to do passive radiators also.

So many decisions!

I say go for the 18hz tune vented enclosures and be done with them! I can't help but wonder how they would sound. I had a single JL 10w7 in my car for a while. It was in a sealed box, powered by an Alpine 1000watt amp. Sounded absolutely amazing!
Martycool007 is online now  
post #26 of 30 Old 01-05-2014, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

I'm leaning toward the 6ft enclosure/18hz tune.

Also leaning towards passive radiators instead of porting. The whole system is a little exotic, so why not? ;)

The vent size to have a nice low vent mach is just huge.

 

Looking around (and still trying to be somewhat thrifty), I'm really thinking these definitive technology PR's might be the way to go.

Unfortunately, the seller doesn't have the parameters for them, I've emailed def tech but haven't heard back from them yet.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Definitive-Technology-BP7000-14-PASSIVE-RADIATOR-4ADE-/170535438554?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item27b4b448da

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Definitive-Technology-10-Passive-Radiator-4ADC-/200492579777?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item2eae49fbc1

 

They look like they have pretty hefty surrounds, and likely have some stroke to them.

I've read that you want to use a larger PR than the woofer, but the 12W7 has a larger than typical 12" cone, AND massive stroke.

Anyone have any input on whether a pair of the 10"s or a single 14" might be enough to pair with the dub7?

 

Appreciate everyone's comments!

fiftyone50 is offline  
post #27 of 30 Old 01-05-2014, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post


I say go for the 18hz tune vented enclosures and be done with them! I can't help but wonder how they would sound. I had a single JL 10w7 in my car for a while. It was in a sealed box, powered by an Alpine 1000watt amp. Sounded absolutely amazing!

 

I have a ported 8w7 tuned to 30hz on a 500/1 in my single cab pickup. It was a trick to get it in there, but it sounds amazing for being a single 8!

I used to have a 13w7 (sealed) in the trunk of a Mark VIII with a rockford 1000a2 pushing it, it hit real nice and low (in addition to pushing the moonroof out)

 

The 10 is the one size I haven't had, but I've heard a couple. Give them enough power and they do sound pretty fantastic.

 

I'm pretty dying to see how these will turn out :)

fiftyone50 is offline  
post #28 of 30 Old 01-10-2014, 12:03 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

So, I pondered..... what IF I DOUBLED up subs again?

Started looking around on CL... no one wants to come off their price much.

Best deal I found was a pair of used 12's in mixmatched boxes for $800

 

Then I found:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/191030853109?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271368671032?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

 

Brand new? $100? WTF?!?!?!

 

Wish me luck that these 2) 0 feedback sellers are legit!

I ended up buying 4.....

 

3 from one seller on bill me later, and one I just paid for outright from the other.

Figure if it turns out these are too good to be true, I can get the credit reversed and covered by ebay on the last one, so I'm only out $150 temporarily if they're flakes.

 

Anyway........ MMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm

 

Half excited thinking about it!

 

And, after playing with winISD more, leaning towards 5.5 cubes @ 19Hz.... still in the air on that though.

If these subs turn out to be legit, I don't know if I'd do 2 pair, or 4 singles.

fiftyone50 is offline  
post #29 of 30 Old 01-19-2014, 03:39 PM
 
Ryan Flynn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Curious did you get the subs? $100 seems way sketchy to me
Ryan Flynn is offline  
post #30 of 30 Old 01-19-2014, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fiftyone50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

Nope.

Got refunded by the seller of the 3 the next day who said he had paypal problems, but had gotten them straightened out and sent me a new invoice to pay.

Told me they'd be shipped as soon as I paid the new invoice, which was sent thru paypal and not ebay, and almost immediately after my payment was refunded.

That all sounded sketchy to me, and I questioned how the seller was able to offer $900 retail price subs at $100... no response.

I used bill me later on the 3, and it took a few days for that refund to process, I cancelled the new invoice and left negative feedback.

 

The other single one, I paid for out of my account, I got refunded on that one the 2nd day, ebay had removed the listing and the seller's account deactivated.

 

So, I got everything straightened out in a few days... kinda disappointed they didn't come through, would have loved to pick up 4 new ones!

I wouldn't have cared if they had removed serial numbers or some crap like that, as long as they worked when I got them.

 

I ended up finding a minty pair of 13w6v2's with grilles for $450 shipped though.. :)

 

And then, I noticed the new W6V3's.... hadn't seen those yet.

They look pretty serious! Would love to have a quartet of them.... not about to pay $600 each though.

 

So now I have my 2 12w7s and the pair of 13w6's.

Considering trying passive boxes (large vented or PR as discusssed above) for the 13w6's and running them off of one of the DBX BX-3's I have in my music system.

They aren't as power hungry and that amp should be able to push those fine, and it should get just as low as the w7's according to winISD

 

the W7s I've been thinking I might make smaller sealed enclosures, with the sunfire plates, and putting on my theater system in the living room.

Not sure though, my infinity IL60's in the living room do pretty well on their own.... rated down to 28hz. I assume in room response probably dips lower, they get real low.

They may just end up back in a car, sold, or sitting on a shelf for another year or two, but I dunno.... I do wanna use those sunfire plates.

fiftyone50 is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off