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post #331 of 640 Old 03-25-2014, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Now I just need to learn what all of this means and how to optimize my setup."

have you level matched and time aligned the mains and the subs? that would be a good place to start. first, adjust the level at the crossover point to be about the same...then flip polarity on the subs and look for a deep null/cancellation that should occur at the acoustic crossover point. might have to add a little delay to the mains to get it optimal (maximum suckout), then flip polarity back.

I think I need to learn more on this with my JTR Triple 8's and dual Submersives. Any good 101 class links on approaching doing this RIGHT!

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post #332 of 640 Old 03-25-2014, 07:54 PM
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Evidently you haven't heard Noesis 212's..........with above comments....... how does bird taste?

No one, and I mean no one has heard more speakers than I. I spent 2-1/2 half years running up and down West Coast looking at the best available speakers most manufacturers offer. I've auditioned over 100 mains.......at varying price points. Noesis 212's lacking in mid-bass/mid-range? I surmise Triple 12's have similar sound signature down low but are different on top compared to Noesis 212's. Mid-bass/mid-range is NOT lacking in those products! eek.gif

Are JTR's the best speakers out there? No.........but the Noesis 212's I heard were fantastic and worthy for consideration. At that level of performance, you better be Mr. Gadget with ability to construct/integrate drivers and crossovers like an acoustical engineer!!! Yeah......like that is going to happen...... rolleyes.gif

I never said anything about the 228's or the 212's lacking in the mid-bass and mid-range. Let me clarify by saying, again, that I have not heard the 228's or 212's, but, I have heard the Triple 12's and Triple-8's, and no, I did not find them lacking in mid- bass, but rather, the mid-range upper treble, and the overall top end was not as smooth, detailed, nor clear as most of the other speakers that I normally prefer . Yes, to me, and several other forum members that I have spoken with about these, all felt that the T12's and T8's were less pleasing than some other stuff in a lower price range. Ie: Bob Crites CornScala's, and a setup that I really liked which consisted of 3 Klipsch La Scala I's up front with 4 Herseys in the rear. Oh and I also liked the Seos offerings that I recently heard as well, a lot more than the T12's and T8's, BUT, this is all subjective, and means nothing to people like you since you seem to disagree with me, and feel that I am wrong. So with that being said, those who are reading this, I am sure already know that it is possible for me to like speaker "x" and you to like speaker "y", so don't get all upset and put words in my mouth. smile.gif
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post #333 of 640 Old 03-25-2014, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I never said anything about the 228's or the 212's lacking in the mid-bass and mid-range. Let me clarify by saying, again, that I have not heard the 228's or 212's, but, I have heard the Triple 12's and Triple-8's, and no, I did not find them lacking in mid- bass, but rather, the mid-range upper treble, and the overall top end was not as smooth, detailed, nor clear as most of the other speakers that I normally prefer . Yes, to me, and several other forum members that I have spoken with about these, all felt that the T12's and T8's were less pleasing than some other stuff in a lower price range. Ie: Bob Crites CornScala's, and a setup that I really liked which consisted of 3 Klipsch La Scala I's up front with 4 Herseys in the rear. Oh and I also liked the Seos offerings that I recently heard as well, a lot more than the T12's and T8's, BUT, this is all subjective, and means nothing to people like you since you seem to disagree with me, and feel that I am wrong. So with that being said, those who are reading this, I am sure already know that it is possible for me to like speaker "x" and you to like speaker "y", so don't get all upset and put words in my mouth. smile.gif

The T12 & T8 have nothing in common with the 228's & 212's when it comes to upper treble & overall top end. If you're familiar with the Noesis line I'm sure you'd already be aware of this. So while I can appreciate your opinion it really means nothing when we're discussing the new JTR speakers.

****edit****
Sorry Marty this comes across a little harsh and I don't want it too, but you yourself said you haven't heard the 228's and 212's. And yet everything you say that you didn't like about the T8's and T12's is exactly what they excel at. Go to any of the GTG threads where the new Noesis line has been present and you will read people saying the exact opposite of what you are. So I would encourage you to try and hear some of the new JTR speakers before you say some of the things you have. smile.gif
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post #334 of 640 Old 03-25-2014, 08:04 PM
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"I think I need to learn more on this with my JTR Triple 8's and dual Submersives. Any good 101 class links on approaching doing this RIGHT!"

that's a darn good question. off the top of my head, i can't actually think of a single comprehensive guide to setting up an audio system. all the topics are covered in various bits and pieces, but as for a single guide, i'm stumped.

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post #335 of 640 Old 03-25-2014, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post


I never said anything about the 228's or the 212's lacking in the mid-bass and mid-range. Let me clarify by saying, again, that I have not heard the 228's or 212's, but, I have heard the Triple 12's and Triple-8's, and no, I did not find them lacking in mid- bass, but rather, the mid-range upper treble, and the overall top end was not as smooth, detailed, nor clear as most of the other speakers that I normally prefer . Yes, to me, and several other forum members that I have spoken with about these, all felt that the T12's and T8's were less pleasing than some other stuff in a lower price range. Ie: Bob Crites CornScala's, and a setup that I really liked which consisted of 3 Klipsch La Scala I's up front with 4 Herseys in the rear. Oh and I also liked the Seos offerings that I recently heard as well, a lot more than the T12's and T8's, BUT, this is all subjective, and means nothing to people like you since you seem to disagree with me, and feel that I am wrong. So with that being said, those who are reading this, I am sure already know that it is possible for me to like speaker "x" and you to like speaker "y", so don't get all upset and put words in my mouth. smile.gif

 

 

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post #336 of 640 Old 03-25-2014, 08:06 PM
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The T12 & T8 have nothing in common with the 228's & 212's when it comes to upper treble & overall top end. If you're familiar with the Noesis line I'm sure you'd already be aware of this. So while I can appreciate your opinion it really means nothing when we're discussing the new JTR speakers.

Dang JB, I was always telling myself my Triple 8's were not far behind smile.gif

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post #337 of 640 Old 03-25-2014, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I think I need to learn more on this with my JTR Triple 8's and dual Submersives. Any good 101 class links on approaching doing this RIGHT!"

that's a darn good question. off the top of my head, i can't actually think of a single comprehensive guide to setting up an audio system. all the topics are covered in various bits and pieces, but as for a single guide, i'm stumped.

Yea I will use this forum. I run Triple 8's up the front three and my two submersives carefully and a long week of finding the optimal "raw" measurement spots. Even rotated my room 90 degree for symmetry. But I use a mini dsp pre audyssey (bypass my low shelf for audyssey then un-bypass after) and I have noticed the polarity buttons for each submersive output. I have just been roughly introduced to some things I have thumbed my way through and figured out on my own.

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post #338 of 640 Old 03-25-2014, 11:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I guess its somewhat official now smile.gif

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post #339 of 640 Old 03-26-2014, 04:50 AM
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The T12 & T8 have nothing in common with the 228's & 212's when it comes to upper treble & overall top end. If you're familiar with the Noesis line I'm sure you'd already be aware of this. So while I can appreciate your opinion it really means nothing when we're discussing the new JTR speakers.

****edit****
Sorry Marty this comes across a little harsh and I don't want it too, but you yourself said you haven't heard the 228's and 212's. And yet everything you say that you didn't like about the T8's and T12's is exactly what they excel at. Go to any of the GTG threads where the new Noesis line has been present and you will read people saying the exact opposite of what you are. So I would encourage you to try and hear some of the new JTR speakers before you say some of the things you have. smile.gif

No worries, you don't sound harsh at all! smile.gif

I know that the 228's and 212's are by most accounts, superior to the T12's and T8's, and I have no doubts that I would like them, probably better than the other designs that I noted earlier as to my preference over the T12's and T8's.

It's strange that you mention the upper mid-range-treble & top end being a strongpoint on the T12's & T8's as both myself, and my two buddies that currently own them all feel that these are weak points. (My buddy with the T12's is selling his to be able to afford a trio of 212's!). I personally felt that the low end and lower mid-bass was their strong point, as well as their dynamics. They also seemed to have a really big sweet spot as well. This just goes to show you that we each hear, and in turn, prefer different things, which also reinforces the aspect of auditioning being such a key factor in picking out speakers.
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post #340 of 640 Old 03-26-2014, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

I think I need to learn more on this with my JTR Triple 8's and dual Submersives. Any good 101 class links on approaching doing this RIGHT!

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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I think I need to learn more on this with my JTR Triple 8's and dual Submersives. Any good 101 class links on approaching doing this RIGHT!"

that's a darn good question. off the top of my head, i can't actually think of a single comprehensive guide to setting up an audio system. all the topics are covered in various bits and pieces, but as for a single guide, i'm stumped.

The audyssey sub distance tweak is a good starting point, but simply flipping the polarity on your subs and messing around with the distance settings in your avr until you see a huge suckout is pretty straightforward biggrin.gif

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #341 of 640 Old 03-26-2014, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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No worries, you don't sound harsh at all! smile.gif

I know that the 228's and 212's are by most accounts, superior to the T12's and T8's, and I have no doubts that I would like them, probably better than the other designs that I noted earlier as to my preference over the T12's and T8's.

It's strange that you mention the upper mid-range-treble & top end being a strongpoint on the T12's & T8's as both myself, and my two buddies that currently own them all feel that these are weak points. (My buddy with the T12's is selling his to be able to afford a trio of 212's!). I personally felt that the low end and lower mid-bass was their strong point, as well as their dynamics. They also seemed to have a really big sweet spot as well. This just goes to show you that we each hear, and in turn, prefer different things, which also reinforces the aspect of auditioning being such a key factor in picking out speakers.

Once again it was a poor attempt on my part to express what I meant. What I really meant was that the points you were making about the top end of the T8's & T12's are what the new 228's & 212's excel at.
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post #342 of 640 Old 03-26-2014, 07:43 PM
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that's a darn good question. off the top of my head, i can't actually think of a single comprehensive guide to setting up an audio system. all the topics are covered in various bits and pieces, but as for a single guide, i'm stumped.

Gee, how about this one:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1390025/av-science-presents-the-home-theater-book


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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #343 of 640 Old 03-26-2014, 07:46 PM
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post #344 of 640 Old 03-26-2014, 09:02 PM
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The audyssey sub distance tweak is a good starting point, but simply flipping the polarity on your subs and messing around with the distance settings in your avr until you see a huge suckout is pretty straightforward biggrin.gif

Yea I have seen what I am pretty sure you guys are referring to as a "suckout" If I flip the polarity buttons on my mini dsp interface on my mac mini it gives a HUGE drop at like 80-100hz. Must have been 30db's. Funny thing is it only ever happened if I hit the polarity buttons after my calibration process I have derived. That is the mini dsp and Audyssey working together. Finding best raw response, applying low shelf filter then click bypass until after Audyssey so it doesn't try and bring it back down. Plus it takes a little intensity out of the sweeps which can be nice when doing it receptively. Then applying only cutting peak filters as to not negatively impact the time domain. I can get it pretty decent from adding 4-6 cutting filters. Then Audyssey adds the icing and really smooths it out. I then change the Submersives to PGM 2 (3db boost below about 45ish HZ) Then un bypass the low shelf filter and set the gain and Q on it to taste. For movies I leave it there. Music gets another AVR sub trim bump of around 6-9db.

But I have done this process about 5-6 times at my new place and just and only this last time I had the huge suckout and actually had to click the polarity buttons to make it normal. I didn't understand it but it measured well so....

I should be getting my Triple 8 LP center channel in the next few days so I am going to do a thorough calibration.

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post #345 of 640 Old 03-27-2014, 07:23 AM
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I think you have it all figured out then smile.gif That is a good process and IMO the correct way of going about things. I did similar back when I used audyssey.

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post #346 of 640 Old 03-27-2014, 09:39 AM
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Yea I really just use Audyssey for icing on the cake and so I can have Dynamic EQ implemented. I couldnt imagine not having DEQ. I watch at 8-15 below ref and music always can vary depending on the mood, type, or if its background music. But that is a diff can of worms as we both know smile.gif

Back to the thread JB. I am looking forward to building subs in the future. Two HP Submersives are suffice for now but I cant ever see myself paying for new ones. I got mine 10 months old for a lifetime deal. Anyhow a couple ported monsters like these would be awesome!

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post #347 of 640 Old 03-28-2014, 07:43 AM
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 Then Audyssey adds the icing and really smooths it out.

 

I would never refer to Audyssey as icing on the cake..........................more like kneeling down near the backside of a cow with the scours...............

 

Can you tell I'm not a fan of Audyssey XT32?  IMHO, XT32 does more harm than good...................<shrugs>


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post #348 of 640 Old 03-28-2014, 07:48 AM
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I would never refer to Audyssey as icing on the cake..........................more like kneeling down near the backside of a cow with the scours...............

Can you tell I'm not a fan of Audyssey XT32?  IMHO, XT32 does more harm than good...................

Yes I certainly can smile.gif What in particular? Just curious. I got my 20-100 hz +-3db last night with just my mini dsp. Pretty good! I just like DEQ for lower listening as I feel the bass is lacking then...

But i'm gonna do some serious listening though and compare

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post #349 of 640 Old 03-28-2014, 08:15 AM
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Yes I certainly can smile.gif What in particular? Just curious. I got my 20-100 hz +-3db last night with just my mini dsp. Pretty good! I just like DEQ for lower listening as I feel the bass is lacking then...

But i'm gonna do some serious listening though and compare

For multiple seating it's very much inadequate............and has limited filters to tweak ones own house curve not to mention integrating with other software. Believe me, I'm not looking forward to integrating MiniDSP Open with Audyssey XT32 as I expect major hiccups. On bright side......both are temporary fixes.

BTW, not bad at all with your db measurements over specified FR.

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post #350 of 640 Old 03-28-2014, 09:18 AM
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For multiple seating it's very much inadequate............and has limited filters to tweak ones own house curve not to mention integrating with other software. Believe me, I'm not looking forward to integrating MiniDSP Open with Audyssey XT32 as I expect major hiccups. On bright side......both are temporary fixes.

BTW, not bad at all with your db measurements over specified FR.

Yea I have the 2 channel Open DRC unit that I use in tandem with Audyssey. I have a process, that after much practice and thought, I feel is pretty good and the best possible if using these two EQ systems together. I'm sure you know much more than I as I consider myself "much to be learned" still. But I think they can compliment each other. Basically in a nutshell I establish the house curve as the first step of taking my raw response. Then bypass it until after I have run my manual mini dsp filters and the Audyssey. Then after all done un bypass it so my house curve is ruined by Audysssey. I couldnt live without a house curve smile.gif #firstworldproblems

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post #351 of 640 Old 04-12-2014, 06:25 PM
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that's a darn good question. off the top of my head, i can't actually think of a single comprehensive guide to setting up an audio system. all the topics are covered in various bits and pieces, but as for a single guide, i'm stumped.
Gee, how about this one:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1390025/av-science-presents-the-home-theater-book

doesn't look like it has the information.

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post #352 of 640 Old 04-12-2014, 06:29 PM
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Okay, here's another measurement with it turned down a little...lol smile.gif


interesting, maybe.

i took a wild ass guess at your room, plugging in values of 12ft wide, 19 feet deep, and adjusted the loss of one wall to zero. after a little monkeying around, i ended up with this:

redline is sim.



here were the values that i input:



looks pretty close to my eyeball.

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post #353 of 640 Old 04-12-2014, 06:33 PM
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interestingly, the same lossiness in the structure that helps to smooth the response also results in less total room gain.

there may be a way to back out what the appropriate loss numbers are for the boundaries based on how well the measured response matches the model response.

anyway. more of a curiosity at this point.

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post #354 of 640 Old 04-12-2014, 09:53 PM - Thread Starter
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John, could you explain the last two posts a little better to me please?
Because I'm really interested in what you said and what just went flying over my head!...lol

You know me, you gotta explain everything two to three times before it sinks in!..lol smile.gif
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post #355 of 640 Old 04-13-2014, 03:58 AM
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JBrown15 and/or LTD02: can you guys do some sims of a couple of rooms for me so that I can see what the room does, naturally? Is that what JBrowm posted & LTD02 quoted in post #352?

If so, can you sin my 17' by 14' by 8' room?
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post #356 of 640 Old 04-13-2014, 04:02 AM
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I know that there is a way to figure out, or predict a particular rooms response or modes based on the raw dimensions of the room, right?

It would be very nice & helpful if one of you guys would post up how to figure room modes based on (x) rooms dimensions? Explain how to determine the first, second, third, ..ect room modes?
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post #357 of 640 Old 04-13-2014, 04:18 AM
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You can use REW to do a room sim. It will give you length, width, and heigth. You can also use it to show Freq response for different sub placements. I'm not sure how acurate it is so hopefully someone else will chime in.
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post #358 of 640 Old 04-13-2014, 08:43 PM
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"John, could you explain the last two posts a little better to me please?"

the program 'room response calculator' allows one to plug in the dimensions of a room, the placement of two subs, one listening position, and lossiness factor for the walls/ceiling/floor etc.

I took a wild ass guess at what the correct inputs should be for your room and it turned out that the response in the simulator was surprisingly close to what you actually measured in your room. that's all.

I haven't experimented with the simulator in REW.

the real strength of the simulators may not be so much to predict an actual response, but to provide some insight into which variables are most important with respect to getting good sound in a room.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #359 of 640 Old 04-13-2014, 08:45 PM
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marty, this article has a decent explanation of modes and how to calculate them:

http://www.hifizine.com/2011/09/prototyping-dipole-bass-system/

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post #360 of 640 Old 04-13-2014, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"John, could you explain the last two posts a little better to me please?"

the program 'room response calculator' allows one to plug in the dimensions of a room, the placement of two subs, one listening position, and lossiness factor for the walls/ceiling/floor etc.

I took a wild ass guess at what the correct inputs should be for your room and it turned out that the response in the simulator was surprisingly close to what you actually measured in your room. that's all.

I haven't experimented with the simulator in REW.

the real strength of the simulators may not be so much to predict an actual response, but to provide some insight into which variables are most important with respect to getting good sound in a room.

Does the response calculator allow you to change the dimensions of a room that isn't exactly rectangular? The would be pretty cool in the was the case, then I could give you all of the exact dimensions of my room and see what it comes up with.
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