LTD-M18 Sub Build - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 640 Old 07-30-2014, 02:50 PM
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Jbrown how tall is your stage?
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post #542 of 640 Old 07-30-2014, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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10"
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post #543 of 640 Old 07-30-2014, 03:08 PM
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see posts #15 and #16 in this thread:


LTD-M18 Sub Build


with 1/4 distance WIDTH placement, i.e. placing the subs at position 25 and 75 in the picture above does this:
mode 1: canceled, because half the subs are in blue, half are in pink.
mode 2: not excited, because all subs are located in velocity zones which do not couple to the room.
mode 3: canceled, again, half the subs are in blue and half the subs are in pink, though in this case the placement only partially couples to the room
mode 4: excited. however, the fourth order mode tends to be pretty far down the list in terms of being able to he heard. i.e., it tends not to be too offensive or have too much impact on frequency response.


with 1/4 distance HEIGHT placement, all that same stuff remains true again, but with respect to the HEIGHT modes.


the only modes left are from the front wall to the rear wall. best to treat the rear wall with fiberglass (set some distance out from the wall) or a limp mass tuned and placed on the wall itself.


or, you may get lucky and be able to use eq for the final fix depending on where and how many rows of seats you are working with.

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post #544 of 640 Old 07-30-2014, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
So here was two measurements that we took yesterday while BassThatHz was over. The red graph is the screwy way that I had the amps setup and the blue graph is basically with zero boosting applied and just having a high pass filter in place to protect the drivers. Basically you can see that I was bottlenecking the subs and robbing them of output.
Oh there's also zero smoothing applied to the graphs.


I still think you could squeak out some more db's below 20hz if you buy a miniDSP.
The inuke is limited to 20hz, which isn't ideal for a ported sub that goes to 12-13hz.

If you are feeling more adventurous, you could apply the follow 2 DEQ's to all 4 channels (ie subs).

This will make the subs sound more aggressive at lower SPL's, so I don't think it would be too risky,

but you should optimize your gain structure firstly, like I mentioned in the GTG thread.
Or at least change your XO to this and increase your AVR sub-out back up to 0db.
or at least -5db in each would be the middle ground. That would still leave you 5db of risk-free boost in the AVR to avoid digital clipping.


When I first saw that his subs were rolling off like a rock at 23hz I instantly knew something was wrong (bad DSP settings or bad box tune), luckily it turned out to be the DSP settings.

He was running a +7db HS12 @ 20hz, which makes everything above 20hz 7db hot, but he was also running a 20hz HPF which made the <20hz even weaker.
Basically he turned his $6000 subwoofer-system into a Bose-module with that one DSP filter. (Just giving ya a hard time... LOL!!! )
The DEQ settings listed above is the correct way, and less-risky way, to boost below 20hz with the inukeDSP (rather than with a PEQ).

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post #545 of 640 Old 07-30-2014, 04:09 PM
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Here is the chart with mic corrections and the native no-DSP blue response added.


His system is -3db @ about 12.5hz, that includes whatever room-boost he may be getting.

So with a miniDSP he could probably squeak out another 4db at 12hz, perhaps not worth the $130.
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post #546 of 640 Old 07-30-2014, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Shawn, I actually have a miniDSP. I just need to get around to getting some cables to hook it up. I plan on using it to EQ the subs and not even use the DSP function in my amps. I'll let the miniDSP take care of everything. I'm actually thinking about changing amps for the subs anyways.
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post #547 of 640 Old 07-30-2014, 07:42 PM
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"The inuke is limited to 20hz, which isn't ideal for a ported sub that goes to 12-13hz."


a shelf filter can be used to push the high pass as low as one likes...


How to extend the high pass filter below 20hz in DCX2496

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post #548 of 640 Old 07-30-2014, 07:44 PM
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"He was running a +7db HS12 @ 20hz, which makes everything above 20hz 7db hot, but he was also running a 20hz HPF which made the <20hz even weaker.
Basically he turned his $6000 subwoofer-system into a Bose-module with that one DSP filter. (Just giving ya a hard time... LOL!!! )"


the HS12 should have been set at about "-4db @20hz ". that would provide a high pass filter around 16-17hz and would be a good start for examining woofer control.

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post #549 of 640 Old 08-07-2014, 10:46 AM
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bump (because I referenced it in a pm) :-)

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post #550 of 640 Old 08-07-2014, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry John, I'm having a brain fart...lol what are you asking me?
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post #551 of 640 Old 08-19-2014, 09:09 PM
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jbrown15 - In deciding how many subs to use is the screen height also a factor?

From your first post I see that the height of the two subs is 72"-76". I'm looking for a 130 inch wide screen which is 149 inch diagonally and 73 inch height.

Since I'm going for a AT screen so I want to make sure the subs are nicely hidden behind the AT screen. Anything behind a non-AT material will of course mess things up.

Ho big is your screen? Are the subs nicely hidden behind our screen?
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post #552 of 640 Old 08-19-2014, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow that is a huge screen that you're thinking about getting, what projector do you plan on using with it?
My subs are 79" high, the bottom two are 40" tall and the top pair are 39" tall. My screen is only a 120" diagonally so you shouldn't have any issues hiding everything behind a screen that big.
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post #553 of 640 Old 08-19-2014, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Wow that is a huge screen that you're thinking about getting, what projector do you plan on using with it?
My subs are 79" high, the bottom two are 40" tall and the top pair are 39" tall. My screen is only a 120" diagonally so you shouldn't have any issues hiding everything behind a screen that big.
I'm thinking sony hw55 for now. My front wall is 12ft wide so one of the reasons for AT screen / Baffle wall is to get a bigger screen size so I don't waste space on the sides.

Typo on the screen size, it's 130" wide and it's going to be a 2.35:1 so the height is 54" and diag is 141".

How do you hide 79" high subs behind the a smaller height screen (not sure if you have 16:9 or 2.35:1)? Can you see the top of the subs?

Just saw the pics again and looks like you have 16:9 screen so that would be 59" inch high. so, how do you side 79" high subs behind 59" high screen?

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post #554 of 640 Old 08-19-2014, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I highly recommend Falcon screens if you're going to go with a manufactured AT screen. I had large 2'x2' samples of screen material from Seymour of both their EN4K material and their XD material along with a sample from Elunevision reference 4K and my Falcon screen. And if you wanted to build your own screen Rich from Falcon will sell you just the screen material.


I'm actually just about to switch out my 16:9 screen for a 2.35:1 screen from Falcon too. I'm actually making panels wrapped in acoustically transparent black cloth and those will go around the screen. So all you'll see is the black panels and my screens, I have all of the wood cut to make the panels but just haven't had time to get around to building them yet.
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post #555 of 640 Old 08-19-2014, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I highly recommend Falcon screens if you're going to go with a manufactured AT screen. I had large 2'x2' samples of screen material from Seymour of both their EN4K material and their XD material along with a sample from Elunevision reference 4K and my Falcon screen. And if you wanted to build your own screen Rich from Falcon will sell you just the screen material.


I'm actually just about to switch out my 16:9 screen for a 2.35:1 screen from Falcon too. I'm actually making panels wrapped in acoustically transparent black cloth and those will go around the screen. So all you'll see is the black panels and my screens, I have all of the wood cut to make the panels but just haven't had time to get around to building them yet.
So looks like my hunch was right. Unless we mast the top (or bottom) of the baffle wall with some black AT material, the taller subs will show not making for a good sight. So, we have to hide the whole thing.

I was thinking about Seymour XD but will look at falcon also. Was the falcon screen much brighter and sharp compared to Falcon. What made you choose falcon?
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post #556 of 640 Old 08-19-2014, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
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The XD screen was ever so slightly brighter but honestly it isn't really even that noticeable IMHO, so that was a was between the two. The big deciding factor for me was seeing the screen pattern weave. I only sit 11ft from a 120" screen and the biggest issue with the XD material was being able to see the weave pattern in the material from 9-10ft away. At first I didn't really notice it, but once I did that all I could see and I knew it would driver me crazy!.....lol


With the Falcon screen material I need to be 5-6ft away before I can see any of the weave and IMO that's a HUGE difference. Both are pretty products and Chris from Seymour was very easy to deal with, but so was Rich at Falcon and in the end I went with his screen. It also didn't hurt that I actually saved around $300 on the Falcon screen compared to the same size screen from Seymour. For example a 130" wide 2.35:1 screen from Seymour will cost you $1652 and the masking panels are $349. But the same size from Falcon is only $1425 and the masking panels are $265, so your saving over $300 and who doesn't like saving $300! ....lol
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post #557 of 640 Old 08-20-2014, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
The XD screen was ever so slightly brighter but honestly it isn't really even that noticeable IMHO, so that was a was between the two. The big deciding factor for me was seeing the screen pattern weave. I only sit 11ft from a 120" screen and the biggest issue with the XD material was being able to see the weave pattern in the material from 9-10ft away. At first I didn't really notice it, but once I did that all I could see and I knew it would driver me crazy!.....lol


With the Falcon screen material I need to be 5-6ft away before I can see any of the weave and IMO that's a HUGE difference. Both are pretty products and Chris from Seymour was very easy to deal with, but so was Rich at Falcon and in the end I went with his screen. It also didn't hurt that I actually saved around $300 on the Falcon screen compared to the same size screen from Seymour. For example a 130" wide 2.35:1 screen from Seymour will cost you $1652 and the masking panels are $349. But the same size from Falcon is only $1425 and the masking panels are $265, so your saving over $300 and who doesn't like saving $300! ....lol
Thanks for the info, will definitely look into it.

I know you have the black AT cloth that hides the subs in the background but at some point the screen wooden frame is directly in front of the top 2 subs..right? Is that an issue since you have a wooden frame (non-AT ) in from on the subwoofer? Do you have to correct that?

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post #558 of 640 Old 08-20-2014, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post
So looks like my hunch was right. Unless we mast the top (or bottom) of the baffle wall with some black AT material, the taller subs will show not making for a good sight. So, we have to hide the whole thing.

I was thinking about Seymour XD but will look at falcon also. Was the falcon screen much brighter and sharp compared to Falcon. What made you choose falcon?
Hey smuggy,

My room is 12 feet wide and I run subs that go from floor to ceiling as well. I have no masking on any edge of my 138" 16:9 screen and I honestly kind of like it. I have to can lights behind the screen with adjustable LED colored bulbs in them that work off remote and it makes for a pretty cool effect. Once you fire up the PJ, that all disappears for the most part. The gap between the top of my screen and the ceiling is only a couple inches, so you can see the stuff below, but nothing above. I have toyed with the idea of making a panel to span across the bottom of the screen and might get on that sooner rather than later, but it honestly doesn't bother me one bit. I will see if I can get some pics up this evening, if JB doesn't mind that is

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post #559 of 640 Old 08-20-2014, 08:41 AM
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Nm. Here ya go.


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post #560 of 640 Old 08-20-2014, 09:24 AM
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Nm. Here ya go.

Thanks beast. I can see the bottom of the subs and little bit on the top. I think all you need is some black AT cloth and just glue it. The good thing is it doesn't bother you and that's what matters.

Do you have to make any corrections on the audio since the screen frame is directly in front of the subs?
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post #561 of 640 Old 08-20-2014, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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The wood framing around my screen doesn't block my subs at all, but honestly I don't really think it would matter that much.
I wouldn't block any part of my speakers but with the subs I don't think it really matters as bass is omni directional.
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post #562 of 640 Old 08-20-2014, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I will see if I can get some pics up this evening, if JB doesn't mind that is
I never mind you posting pics in my theaters, especially if its pics of your sweet setup buddy!
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post #563 of 640 Old 08-20-2014, 10:46 AM
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I can't give enough thumbs up for your latest front stage. I'm envious.

Awesome work, bud!
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post #564 of 640 Old 08-20-2014, 10:53 AM
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A little 1x3 will not affect anything in the subwoofer realm. On the top I promise what you are seeing in the pic is not the subs. with only 3 inches or so clearance, you cannot see the subs at all unless you literally stand on a ladder with your head touching the ceiling.

I did previously have a layer of black velvet that hung off the bottom of the screen to the floor and that was pretty nice to cover that area but it eventually got too frayed and I parted it out for other things

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post #565 of 640 Old 08-20-2014, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Scott, it's been a slow process. I kind of do things to the room when I have enough money set aside so that I'm not spending money that I don't have on a hobby. Right now I'm working on room treatments, I'm going line the entire inside of the stage walls and ceiling with two layers of linacoustics next. Brandon did that too, and was really happy with the results.
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Clean set up jbrown!
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post #567 of 640 Old 08-20-2014, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I never mind you posting pics in my theaters, especially if its pics of your sweet setup buddy!
Thanks man! I ended up posting that pic from my phone and it made me realize that enough is enough. I start my dedicated theater thread tonight, where I will document all things done over the last few years. should make it easier to locate, and upload files moving forward....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Thanks Scott, it's been a slow process. I kind of do things to the room when I have enough money set aside so that I'm not spending money that I don't have on a hobby. Right now I'm working on room treatments, I'm going line the entire inside of the stage walls and ceiling with two layers of linacoustics next. Brandon did that too, and was really happy with the results.
Yes I certainly was. Making the entire front wall basically "disappear" was a killer improvement to my sound for sure!

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post #568 of 640 Old 08-20-2014, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to have to redo the front wall though and that's also why I haven't finished the panels to go around the screen wall. I've decided to switch to a scope screen which will be an additional 10" wider. Once I get that I'll finish the panels to go around the screen to hide everything behind the screen wall.
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post #569 of 640 Old 08-20-2014, 11:05 AM
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I never mind you posting pics in my theaters, especially if its pics of your sweet setup buddy!
What is the height of your screen jbrown vs the height of the two subs?

A full marty is 4 ft tall so two would be 96"....I think your subs are 79" inch tall. I want to use your setup as a baseline/motivation so want to make sure all the measurements are correct.

I want to select the right marty cube. It's amazing how it will take away 2-3 ft from the length of the room while the smaller SVS subs hardly take a few inches. If I plan to use a Marty, I will have to be ok with just one row vs two.

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post #570 of 640 Old 08-20-2014, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Brandon have you considered putting any diffusers in your room? doublewing just installed these in the back or his room.






And he seems to be really happy with them, plus they only set him back $85ea. I'm thinking about ordering 6-7 of them for my room too.
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