4 lms 5400 recommended cabinet build, recommendations welcome - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 12-18-2013, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,
I will be buying 2 LMS 5400 and then at some point in the future, another 2 if necessary. My goal is performance in the 10's. I watch movies.
I have some questions.

1. Whats the recommended cabinet build for maximum performance? I don't need to see the driver. I don't want something obnoxiously large, but I do have space for something big. I read about PPSL, but i'm not sure.
I will be finding a local furniture company that I work with to do the build. They've never done speaker cabinets, but they make a lot plywood furniture all the time.

2. What amp should I use? I am planning on getting the FP14000 clone to power a set of 2. Any con's to this amplifier choice?

3. Electricity concerns. Whats the minimum electricity and electric line do i need to power the amps? I've been reading about people getting amp circuits. I don't understand any of this. I'll do it if i need to, but I'm not sure if its necessary.

4. I will get a mini dsp to do testing.

It will be connected to a HTPC with a asus xonar 1.3hdav card analog out, some 10 year old axioms and a 10 year old HK 525 powering the mains. i'll upgrade these in time as well.


Thanks
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post #2 of 28 Old 12-18-2013, 05:50 PM
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Well, pick your poison.

* If you want max SPL/efficiency, then go with two GJALLARHORNS and call it a day. You will need more floor space for cabs, they are largish....but, Trust me, you won't need the other two and save a boatload on drivers and amps. One amp could easily power two well past anything your ears or room could handle with anything over 15Hz.

* If you want maximum extension down into the single digits then go for small sealed cabinets and apply copious amounts of power/EQ. You will potentially save some floor space, but spend more on amplification. You will have the advantage of more cabs if desired for easier placement and smoother response.

* If you want medium extension but want more efficiency go with larger ported or PR boxes tuned to around 15Hz, even two of those would be very capable. Of course, the more the better...after all this is AVS! I would go the PR route vs ported, although the cost of multiple PRs is not insignificant.

Each design has its compromises, like I said, pick your poison.

The clone amps will be ideal. If you go ported/PR or horn you could probably get away with one amp (depending on your ideal of max SPL).
If you go sealed, you will probably want two.

You could probably get away with two dedicated 20A circuits without issue, one per amp to include other components ,etc.

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post #3 of 28 Old 12-18-2013, 06:53 PM
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"I don't want something obnoxiously large, but I do have space for something big."

if you can be a little more precise about what you mean, it might help narrow it down, as those terms means completely different things to different folks.

as joe mentioned above, the other dimension is how low you want in extension.

what is the size of the room these will be going in?

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post #4 of 28 Old 12-18-2013, 06:58 PM
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If you are not familiar with Data-bass.com you can check out the test results for the sealed and horn loaded versions of LMS builds.
This is anechoic data and is nowhere near what your in room SPL/response will be. But, it can give you a starting point to base your decision making on.

Check the "Systems" column for the designs, then you can sort by SPL columns.

Anyone that builds furniture should be able to easily build any cabinet, including a horn, that is if they can follow simple measurements and layout.

You may also want to consider something that could be integrated in the form of furniture, after all you are talking about furniture builders.
What about a couple end tables and/or couch table, etc. ??

I went that route and no one even knows I have LMSs hidden in the furniture until all hell breaks lose!eek.gif

MiniDSP will fit the bill, or you can opt for a DCX2496 which also works well.

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post #5 of 28 Old 12-18-2013, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,
I have no concerns about amp $$$ or speaker $$$ because of a very unique situation which I will post after I actually get the speakers and amps in my hands. You'll be quite interested I'm sure.

I can accept a box 40x40x40 without hesitation . Bigger then that, and I"m not sure. Depends on the benefits.

The biggest challenge will be the box construction, because the furniture factory I work with is not capable of anything complicated and has never built speakers before.

I will definitely be buying the fp14000s.


Thanks
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post #6 of 28 Old 12-18-2013, 10:13 PM
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"I have no concerns about amp $$$ or speaker $$$ because of a very unique situation which I will post after I actually get the speakers and amps in my hands."

an idea of dual lms ultra - quad passive radiator build is in my head...who was our friend in loisiana again?

i will model something up for you in a bit...

the benefit of the p.r.'s is that they behave more or less like ports, but don't take up any physical volume like large ports, but still give the 10db or so spl advantage around the tuning frequency.

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post #7 of 28 Old 12-18-2013, 10:18 PM
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ah...robertcharles...forgot his name.

here is a thread that you may wish to take a look at:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/880571/4-18-5400s-powered-by-2-qsc-rmx-5050s

not suggesting this particular build, but just to get the creative juices flowing...

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post #8 of 28 Old 12-18-2013, 10:25 PM
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so what he did was dual opposed lms ultras and quad opposed passive radiators all in one tower.

of course, he built two towers. :-) very nice work.

the driver in the middle is the lmsu iirc. p.r.'s on top and bottom. same thing on the side of the cab that can't be seen in the pic.


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post #9 of 28 Old 12-18-2013, 10:40 PM
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ah...scratch that idea...if you really don't care about the driver or amp money...just get a crap ton of drivers and amps and have at it. :-)

for absolute maximum performance, what is needed is performance density (the most swept volume that you can achieve per volume of cab space).

~4000 watts per driver. ~2.0 cubic feet per lms ultra driver. sealed. heavy equalization on the bottom end.

8 drivers + 32000 watts power + 16 cubic feet = 130db with no room gain at 20hz. most folks would call that a "10"...most folks. ;-)


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post #10 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 12:11 AM
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Don't go above 325liters sealed for each LMS, otherwise it will bottom out @ 4kW input in the infrasonics.
You could go 2 horn and 2 sealed, the sealed would help fill the <15hz and >80hz performance, the horns would cover the in-between.

I get this with 4 sealed LMS's in 325liter boxes and small amount of EQ + room gain:


My preamp is flat to 1hz and the FP14k clone does 3hz so it's very easy to get to 10hz or lower.
This isn't MAX SPL either, just the sweep level I chose.
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post #11 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 12:23 AM
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that's 3.25 c.f. just for clarity. quite nice response there bth.

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post #12 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 01:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks so far. Quick question about electricity. Will i need? to upgrade my electricity setup if i am pulling that much power?

As for the builds, keep them coming. Seems great so far.
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post #13 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 01:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Also, where does one get a 18 inch passive radiator?
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post #14 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 01:22 AM
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Sorry I meant to say liters actually. LOL

You need 30amps@110v or 16a @ 220, otherwise your house will burn down. Too much heat buildup in the regular sized romex.
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post #15 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkson View Post

Thanks so far. Quick question about electricity. Will i need? to upgrade my electricity setup if i am pulling that much power?

As for the builds, keep them coming. Seems great so far.

As mentioned earlier, you won't have to upgrade your electricity unless you are already using that circuit(s) to power other devices elsewhere. It also depends on what you mean by upgrade.
It is typically pretty quick and easy to run a new line to a new or existing outlet. If you want to future proof it, run a couple new lines to a dedicated double gang outlet. If you want to get the most out of the clones you will want 220V outlets. However, if you go with horns or PRs you will have gobs of output with moderate power. I would use 110V, 20A circuits but that is just my preference. Others will disagree and say 220V whenever possible for pro amps.
I prefer to have headroom across the board and use less than 50% of the capacity of any device or driver. So, I am not one that is looking to get 37.5mm of xmax out a possible 38...

Check the existing circuit(s) and see what they are used for.
I am running two pro amps AND a 5 x 200 main amp off of one circuit and it has never tripped despite hitting 120db+ all day long.

The only way you would need more than a 20A circuit for each amp is if you were doing some kind of torture testing on the amps and or drivers.

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post #16 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkson View Post

Also, where does one get a 18 inch passive radiator?

Parts Express, the place where you get the LMS from...

http://www.parts-express.com/tc-sounds-vmp-18-passive-radiator--293-684

You will need two for each driver if you go that route.

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post #17 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Parts Express, the place where you get the LMS from...

http://www.parts-express.com/tc-sounds-vmp-18-passive-radiator--293-684

You will need two for each driver if you go that route.

+1 . It seems as though all worthy PR builds require such/dual.

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post #18 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

I am running two pro amps AND a 5 x 200 main amp off of one circuit and it has never tripped...
Umm. That's impressive. What pro amps?

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post #19 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

Umm. That's impressive. What pro amps?

2 x CE4000 and Fosgate Audionics FA1000.5 (plus Emotiva processor, Panny BD player)

And I had the same config at my old house with one 20A there too. Movies rarely push the limits for sustained periods. Modern breakers can take multiples of their designated limits for short bursts.

I am guessing some people just assume that they need to provide gobs of amperage before trying things out. I thought I was going to have to add a circuit at both houses, but fortunately not.
Of course, my ears can only handle 120dbs + for short periods. I don't listen at reference or push my amps to clipping, etc. I am sure if I wanted to I could get something to give.
Yes, if you want the most from your amps then use multiple circuits. I am sure this setup limits my maximum output somewhat, but how much is enough? I know I can't listen any louder and enjoy it.

I recall hearing others successfully running two amps off of one circuit as well.

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post #20 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 10:26 AM
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jpmst3 makes some good points
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

I am running two pro amps AND a 5 x 200 main amp off of one circuit and it has never tripped despite hitting 120db+ all day long. The only way you would need more than a 20A circuit for each amp is if you were doing some kind of torture testing on the amps and or drivers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

Umm. That's impressive. What pro amps?

For obvious safety reason, I can't recommend it. However, it's truly fascinating knowing how much audio amplification one can get away with on a single circuit.

Looneybomber, I realize that you likely already know, but it may help others so it's worth repeating.

Due to motors requiring large amounts of current at start up, etc., breakers can pass mammoth amounts of current for brief periods of time, ... brief, yeah, but still entirely long enough to supply your gear without nuisance tripping.

I've experimented thusly, and powered everything I could find in my room on one circuit. All my front end gear, like my big Onkyo 5509 pre/pro, the rest of my stack, two high power, gaming PCs workstations, 65" plasma display, my entire active sound system comprised of (4)1kw surrounds, (3)2 kw LCRs, (2) 2kw EP4000 amplifiers, (2)2.4kw amps for subwoofers, all that ... no tripping.

For obvious safety reasons, I certainly don't recommend doing so, but the breaker will pass a great deal more than one thinks. Circuit breakers can pass extraordinary amounts of current for brief moments, ... similar to those encountered in audio playback. Having been professionally involved in both the electrical field, and in large event power/pro-audio, etc., I've seen the results of over-current scenarios of every conceivable type. Also, and most relevant to this discussion, I've performed experiments at home with my gear and residential circuits.

Again, no it's an unsafe practice, but one can utilize many times the rated ampacity of a circuit breaker for the short bursts that typically accompany audio usage.

Typical residential breakers, like a 20amp circuit breaker;
Can pass 7-8 times the rated 20amp trip amount, .. for up to a second or more.
It can pass up to 3x the rated amount for up to 10sec or so.
The same 20amp circuit, can allow up to 1.5-2times the rated amount for a period extending as long as 30 seconds.

~140-160amps for up to 1 sec
~60amps for about 10secs
~30-40amps for as long as 30secs

^ Those are extraordinarily high amounts. But it's primarily all about the deepest of the LF. Considering every octave lower the material plunges, the woofer(s) are required to move 4 times the amount of air to maintain the same playback SPL. That 400% extra displacement also requires huge current increases feeding the amplification.

From the huge numbers a breaker will allow seen above, we know the current is available, but only for short periods. So we can see that maybe the deepest sustained material, like test tones, will tax the entire system to the point where the breaker does it's job and opens up.

Now, there are performance issues. A circuit loaded up like that exhibits voltage drop, not good. For the best performance/optimal fidelity, headroom is good even with the circuit feeding your amplification.


For an experiment, I've placed everything I've got on one circuit ... and cranked it up to attempt to elicit a breaker trip. That's 6.8kw for subs, 10kw for all active mains/surrounds, 16.8kw, full tilt no problem w/breaker tripping. Actually, for that experiment there was a lot more on the circuit too ... all my remaining HT gear, plasma, multiple PC workstations (high power PCs).

Now I have multiple dedicated circuits, that was merely an experiment. Safety is a real issue, and voltage drop is a performance issue, best to be avoided (subtle yes, but a problem nonetheless). Upsized wire size on subwoofer amplification circuits is helpful.

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post #21 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 10:34 AM
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Exactly, I know I am not getting the maximum capabilities from my amps. There simply is not enough current to go around off of one circuit.
At the same time, I don't need anymore either. It works perfectly for my SPL tolerances (and my house's) with mucho bottom end.
Like I said, I am quite sure I could trip the breaker by going to 11, but there is no need for it. Every picture in the house is crooked now and objects fall off of shelves...and that is in 2500 sq ft.

I am guessing of course, but I would suspect that under typical movie watching I am not even drawing 15 amps. There may be short bursts during bass heavy scenes that draw a full 20A or more from the two CE4000s.
I also forgot at my old house, I did an experiment by splitting the amps up onto different circuits (the main panel was right around the corner with a direct outlet below it) by using a 15ft, heavy 12 gauge extension cord to see if it would change things and I could not tell a difference.
So, I didn't bother running another circuit.

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post #22 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

jpmst3 makes some good points

For obvious safety reason, I can't recommend it. However, it's truly fascinating knowing how much audio amplification one can get away with on a single circuit.

Looneybomber, I realize that you likely already know, but it may help others so it's worth repeating.

Due to motors requiring large amounts of current at start up, etc., breakers can pass mammoth amounts of current for brief periods of time, ... brief, yeah, but still entirely long enough to supply your gear without nuisance tripping.

I've experimented thusly, and powered everything I could find in my room on one circuit. All my front end gear, like my big Onkyo 5509 pre/pro, the rest of my stack, two high power, gaming PCs workstations, 65" plasma display, my entire active sound system comprised of (4)1kw surrounds, (3)2 kw LCRs, (2) 2kw EP4000 amplifiers, (2)2.4kw amps for subwoofers, all that ... no tripping.

For obvious safety reasons, I certainly don't recommend doing so, but the breaker will pass a great deal more than one thinks. Circuit breakers can pass extraordinary amounts of current for brief moments, ... similar to those encountered in audio playback. Having been professionally involved in both the electrical field, and in large event power/pro-audio, etc., I've seen the results of over-current scenarios of every conceivable type. Also, and most relevant to this discussion, I've performed experiments at home with my gear and residential circuits.

Again, no it's an unsafe practice, but one can utilize many times the rated ampacity of a circuit breaker for the short bursts that typically accompany audio usage.

Typical residential breakers, like a 20amp circuit breaker;
Can pass 7-8 times the rated 20amp trip amount, .. for up to a second or more.
It can pass up to 3x the rated amount for up to 10sec or so.
The same 20amp circuit, can allow up to 1.5-2times the rated amount for a period extending as long as 30 seconds.

~140-160amps for up to 1 sec
~60amps for about 10secs
~30-40amps for as long as 30secs

^ Those are extraordinarily high amounts. But it's primarily all about the deepest of the LF. Considering every octave lower the material plunges, the woofer(s) are required to move 4 times the amount of air to maintain the same playback SPL. That 400% extra displacement also requires huge current increases feeding the amplification.

From the huge numbers a breaker will allow seen above, we know the current is available, but only for short periods. So we can see that maybe the deepest sustained material, like test tones, will tax the entire system to the point where the breaker does it's job and opens up.

Now, there are performance issues. A circuit loaded up like that exhibits voltage drop, not good. For the best performance/optimal fidelity, headroom is good even with the circuit feeding your amplification.


For an experiment, I've placed everything I've got on one circuit ... and cranked it up to attempt to elicit a breaker trip. That's 6.8kw for subs, 10kw for all active mains/surrounds, 16.8kw, full tilt no problem w/breaker tripping. Actually, for that experiment there was a lot more on the circuit too ... all my remaining HT gear, plasma, multiple PC workstations (high power PCs).

Now I have multiple dedicated circuits, that was merely an experiment. Safety is a real issue, and voltage drop is a performance issue, best to be avoided (subtle yes, but a problem nonetheless). Upsized wire size on subwoofer amplification circuits is helpful.

Seriously?!

Whew!!!

Man! I am SUPER nervous about tripping breakers with my new gear stack. redface.gif

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post #23 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 11:18 AM
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Seriously?!

Whew!!!

Man! I am SUPER nervous about tripping breakers with my new gear stack. redface.gif


Not to worry Scott! You’re right at the limit by my calculations.. one more 18” sure shootin will put you over though. rolleyes.gif

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post #24 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Seriously?!

Whew!!!

Man! I am SUPER nervous about tripping breakers with my new gear stack. redface.gif

I wouldn't be overly concerned. Again, the ears can only handle so much. Run an extended test at louder than normal levels, if nothing trips you are good to go with "normal" volumes (whatever that is around here!?!?).eek.gif
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post #25 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 01:53 PM
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I'm drawing 12amps RMS @ 120v at -30db (full system).
I've been known to pin my subwoofers for hours at a time, which is closer to 25amps RMS. I've been able to successfully overheat 8 18's on a few rare occasions. eek.gif (But you just give them 5-10 minutes and they are gtg again. tongue.gif )


The LMS blows up at 40mm one-way FYI
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post #26 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 02:00 PM
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The LMS blows up at 40mm one-way FYI

Yes, there is almost NO room for error with the LMS.
It is one of the best drivers ever created, but one ingredient that's missing is extra xmech.
You can go from hero to zero in a mm or two. eek.gif

There are those among us that have found out the hard and $$ way.

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post #27 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Not to worry Scott! You’re right at the limit by my calculations.. one more 18” sure shootin will put you over though. rolleyes.gif

Well that's no good cuz I still have the last two RLp18's to put behind the couch. Hmmm.

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post #28 of 28 Old 12-19-2013, 04:55 PM
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Well that's no good cuz I still have the last two RLp18's to put behind the couch. Hmmm.

eek.gif lol.. NOPE! When I spoke to GE I had them figure in that too along with that Lil Rebel Rouser you like to use for a foot-stool. YOU be good to go! smile.gif

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