Comparing DIY speakers with each other and with commercial equivalents - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 77 Old 12-27-2013, 04:19 AM
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post #62 of 77 Old 12-27-2013, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by granroth View Post

I am very curious why you say that the Fusion 15 and Single 8HT aren't in the same league and imply that the Fusion 15 is the heavyweight? The JTR is 3x the price and, notably, in the subjective "shootout" linked above, most of the people rated the JTR as sounding better than the Fusion. What is it about what you know about them that leads you to your conclusion?
The JTR is three times the price because you're paying for all of the overhead involved in the building, marketing and distribution of the product, not to mention the profit margin. As for the comparison between them, knowing what each uses for components any engineer worth his salt knows what each is capable of, and what they're not capable of, even without extensive data. One could even create much of that comparative data for that matter, if one had the inclination.
I don't see the link you're referring to where both were compared in properly administered DB listening tests.

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post #63 of 77 Old 12-27-2013, 07:47 AM
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The fusion 15, as well as most other SEOS designs, are on diysoundgroup forum. Most don't have a waterfall because waterfalls have been provided for the waveguide/CD, but I have posted the impulse response before, which is a dirty way of seeing the same thing. Admittedly not nearly as good though. Matt did post quite extensive data for the fusion 15 though.

One thing about DIY that often is left out of the equation, is implementation. This isn't easy for the the average user, so many manufacturers make their speakers as turnkey, bullet proof as possible. They want them to work in any room in any configuration. Take Bill's designs for instance. I've heard him say he doesn't design for FR at all. Just even polars and max SPL. And that the user must eq. This is actually a very good way to do it. But the work is placed on the end user. Take MKtheater as an example who has some of Bill's speakers. His measurements look like a roller coaster. Sound like a bad design right. Well, not at all in fact. Just a lot of work for MKtheater. No manufacturer would dare do that because 99.9% of users can't measure and eq like MKtheater and other DIY guys. They don't want the end user posting on AVS or anywhere else "these speakers sound tinny and dry and crappy" when they would sound great with the proper implementation.

Even the SEOS designs (arguably fairly plug and play) have caused a hundred headaches. People don't toe in, or they cross to subs to low, or screw up the XO, or...

But when you DO implement them right, the pay of is huge.

Consider that.
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post #64 of 77 Old 12-27-2013, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

The fusion 15, as well as most other SEOS designs, are on diysoundgroup forum. Most don't have a waterfall because waterfalls have been provided for the waveguide/CD, but I have posted the impulse response before, which is a dirty way of seeing the same thing. Admittedly not nearly as good though. Matt did post quite extensive data for the fusion 15 though.

One thing about DIY that often is left out of the equation, is implementation. This isn't easy for the the average user, so many manufacturers make their speakers as turnkey, bullet proof as possible. They want them to work in any room in any configuration. Take Bill's designs for instance. I've heard him say he doesn't design for FR at all. Just even polars and max SPL. And that the user must eq. This is actually a very good way to do it. But the work is placed on the end user. Take MKtheater as an example who has some of Bill's speakers. His measurements look like a roller coaster. Sound like a bad design right. Well, not at all in fact. Just a lot of work for MKtheater. No manufacturer would dare do that because 99.9% of users can't measure and eq like MKtheater and other DIY guys. They don't want the end user posting on AVS or anywhere else "these speakers sound tinny and dry and crappy" when they would sound great with the proper implementation.

Even the SEOS designs (arguably fairly plug and play) have caused a hundred headaches. People don't toe in, or they cross to subs to low, or screw up the XO, or...

But when you DO implement them right, the pay of is huge.

Consider that.

Agreed! DIY is so worth it BUT it involves the end user.
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post #65 of 77 Old 12-27-2013, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by granroth View Post

The "if you can get them" is looking to be more problematic than the "if you can read them" (although I'm currently lacking in that area, as well). I cannot find any of those charts for either the Fusion 15 or the Single 8HT.

I am very curious why you say that the Fusion 15 and Single 8HT aren't in the same league and imply that the Fusion 15 is the heavyweight? The JTR is 3x the price and, notably, in the subjective "shootout" linked above, most of the people rated the JTR as sounding better than the Fusion. What is it about what you know about them that leads you to your conclusion?

I don't believe there has been a comparison between the Fusion-15 and the Single-8HT. But they really aren't in the same class and are totally different beasts. One uses a 15" B&C woofer, and larger waveguide for playing full range with authority. The other is a very nice coaxial model not intended to play full range. They really aren't in the same class. Both are good, but the 8" coaxial simply can't compete with the 15" model.....it was never designed to do that.

Now if you had a smaller room, not crossing low to a subwoofer, and didn't need the constant directivity of a larger waveguide, then you would be bringing things closer together. But you would also be changing what the design criteria was for the larger model.
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post #66 of 77 Old 12-27-2013, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

No manufacturer would dare do that
No manufacturer of consumer grade speakers, but DR250s aren't consumer grade speakers, they're pro-sound. In pro-sound DSP isn't optional, it's standard equipment. This SPL chart shows one of the benchmark pro-sound speakers of the last 25 years, the EAW KF 850, with and without DSP:



It simply cannot be used without DSP, nor can the vast majority of today's high end pro-sound speakers. That was an issue cost wise when the KF 850 was introduced in 1985, and DSP cost well over $3k. Now that the price of DSP is down to $300 or less even weekend warrior DJs and garage bands have it, and so should the serious HT owner who doesn't have an acoustically perfect room.

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post #67 of 77 Old 12-27-2013, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by granroth View Post

Okay, that's a great example! How did you know that Bunge's WTMW speaker would have a sound similar to the CC5s? Was that directly mentioned somewhere? Or maybe you found the various charts and compared them?

This is where all credibility ceases..... The CC5 was a WTMW design, my thought was they all sound alike since they were designed the same with the vertical MT, flanked by two woofers..... Lucky for me they were! They have a smooth transition from driver to driver, the metal dome does not sound harsh at all.
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post #68 of 77 Old 12-27-2013, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I don't believe there has been a comparison between the Fusion-15 and the Single-8HT. But they really aren't in the same class and are totally different beasts. One uses a 15" B&C woofer, and larger waveguide for playing full range with authority. The other is a very nice coaxial model not intended to play full range. They really aren't in the same class. Both are good, but the 8" coaxial simply can't compete with the 15" model.....it was never designed to do that.

Now if you had a smaller room, not crossing low to a subwoofer, and didn't need the constant directivity of a larger waveguide, then you would be bringing things closer together. But you would also be changing what the design criteria was for the larger model.

As far as the comparison goes, I was referring to the NE Spring Speaker Shootout link from above. Indeed, it was not (nor was it intended to be) a proper A/B test. It was also very music centered vs HT focused. There did seem to be a lot of consensus on the subjective quality of the speakers, though. I realize, though, that I may have been confusing the JTR Noesis 212s with the Single 8HT -- two very different speakers.

So yeah, I get now that it's important to directly compare speakers based at least on the size of their components. I would surmise, then, that we'd expect the Noesis to sound even more "full" than the Fusion-15 if only because it has dual 12" woofers vs the single 12" woofer in the Fusion? The informal shootout participants did appear to agree that the Noesis speakers sounded "better" than the Fusion.

Maybe a better direct comparison, then, would be the Alpha-8 Minions to the Single 8HT? They both have an 8" woofer.
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post #69 of 77 Old 12-27-2013, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by granroth View Post

So yeah, I get now that it's important to directly compare speakers based at least on the size of their components. I would surmise, then, that we'd expect the Noesis to sound even more "full" than the Fusion-15 if only because it has dual 12" woofers vs the single 12" woofer in the Fusion? The informal shootout participants did appear to agree that the Noesis speakers sounded "better" than the Fusion.

The Noesis 212 is also something of a special case because it uses an unusual coaxial compression driver that goes for around $700 each. So yeah, not exactly apples vs. apples for all kinds of reasons.
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post #70 of 77 Old 12-27-2013, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granroth View Post

As far as the comparison goes, I was referring to the NE Spring Speaker Shootout link from above. Indeed, it was not (nor was it intended to be) a proper A/B test. It was also very music centered vs HT focused. There did seem to be a lot of consensus on the subjective quality of the speakers, though. I realize, though, that I may have been confusing the JTR Noesis 212s with the Single 8HT -- two very different speakers.

So yeah, I get now that it's important to directly compare speakers based at least on the size of their components. I would surmise, then, that we'd expect the Noesis to sound even more "full" than the Fusion-15 if only because it has dual 12" woofers vs the single 12" woofer in the Fusion? The informal shootout participants did appear to agree that the Noesis speakers sounded "better" than the Fusion.

Maybe a better direct comparison, then, would be the Alpha-8 Minions to the Single 8HT? They both have an 8" woofer.

I have the alpa minions and I can compare them to many commercial speakers under 1500. For movies I have never heard better. Commercial speakers under 1.5k/pair I have heard are B&W 684, Kef q900, focal 814v, tekton lores, paradigm monitor 9's, klipsch, and a few more. Better in terms of directivity with waveguide which makes it easier to understand dialogue. Also they play crystal clean to insane levels. Can play 5dbs past reference without compression.

For music their good but if you are one who likes that lush raal tweeter sound then their are better speakers. I am 80%/20% movies to music and when I listen to music its usually loud and guitar heavy. I originally built these for my rears but they could easily be fronts in a large room if you have a good sub to cross them over at 75-80hz
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post #71 of 77 Old 12-27-2013, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

I have the alpa minions and I can compare them to many commercial speakers under 1500. For movies I have never heard better. Commercial speakers under 1.5k/pair I have heard are B&W 684, Kef q900, focal 814v, tekton lores, paradigm monitor 9's, klipsch, and a few more. Better in terms of directivity with waveguide which makes it easier to understand dialogue. Also they play crystal clean to insane levels. Can play 5dbs past reference without compression.

For music their good but if you are one who likes that lush raal tweeter sound then their are better speakers. I am 80%/20% movies to music and when I listen to music its usually loud and guitar heavy. I originally built these for my rears but they could easily be fronts in a large room if you have a good sub to cross them over at 75-80hz

You might consider doing a cut and paste of that entire post into the DIY Soundgroup Review Section for the Minion 8. I found your comments very helpful.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/review/product/list/id/346/category/89/

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #72 of 77 Old 12-27-2013, 07:14 PM
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I did put a positive review their , not sure you can edit. Thanks
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post #73 of 77 Old 12-27-2013, 08:02 PM
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You certainly did put a review in there, I totally missed it. Sorry about that. rolleyes.gif

It's just that I liked your review and description, posted just upstream. I know more than I did 6 months ago, but as a new DIY'er, that kind of personal experience comparison is exactly what I would have wanted to know. I was looking at Klipsch just before I went DIY.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #74 of 77 Old 12-27-2013, 09:13 PM
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Only been doing diy for three months and learned a lot. Its addictive . Bought front 3 speakers and sub 10 months ago. Now sold them all , for more then it cost me to build my own and diy speakers far superior .
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post #75 of 77 Old 01-23-2014, 03:02 PM
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great read. Subbed biggrin.gif

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #76 of 77 Old 01-24-2014, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
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the tempest in a nice custom finish will cost about 3000 a pair or more retail. A nice glossy veneer finish is very costly and time consuming or duratex can be fast and affordable.

The veneer isn't more costly then duratex unless you use an exotic wood. Veneer is quicker then duratex . No filling and very little sanding. Its very easy if you have a laminate router which isn't that costly .

ill dissagree that veneer is cheaper/faster then duratex. you still have to sand and fill if you didnt so a perfect job putting your box together, Id argue its more important for veneer. duratex will cover just about anything and if you are going the duratex route you prob dont care that your seams are not perfect. also 1 gallon of duratex covers a TON of stuff, it will be cheaper vs veenering a similar amnt of sqft

however veenered ones wont cost 3k either, you can get nice inexpensive veeners, also if you simply build the cab out of nice grade baltic birch you can just stain that and get a nice looking cabnet (ive done it see build thread)

now unless you are a really good woodworker you prob are not going to get something that looks like a comercial offering but it can be done
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post #77 of 77 Old 01-24-2014, 08:59 AM
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ill dissagree that veneer is cheaper/faster then duratex. you still have to sand and fill if you didnt so a perfect job putting your box together, Id argue its more important for veneer. duratex will cover just about anything and if you are going the duratex route you prob dont care that your seams are not perfect.
+1. One of the advantages to DuraTex is that it forgives more sins than a Papal Dispensation. It goes on fast and easy, with minimal prep work, and that's why it's practically driven 'rat fur' carpet out of the pro-sound market, despite having a higher per square foot materials cost. And rat fur is a lot less time consuming to apply than veneer, where after it's applied you still have to put a finish on it.

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