UXL-18 Subwoofer driver Group Buy (is now closed out/over/done/fini) !!!! - Page 46 - AVS Forum
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post #1351 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 04:34 PM
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I probably should start a new thread in the DIY Subs and Enclosures Forum to answer the following questions, but I thought I'd first post this here on the UXL-18 thread first because you guys have so much experience with this driver.  Until the UXL-18 becomes available after June 2014, I have been doing my homework to learn how to use WidISD and get a feel for how changing one parameter impacts response and other parameters.  I wanted to learn enough to narrow down my options and be able to ask intelligent questions to those of you with more experience. I've used a lot of complex 2 channel speakers over the years and set up many home theaters for clients but I am a complete newbee when it comes to DIY, Thiele Small Parameters, WinISD and building subwoofers.

 

Currently, I'm saving up for two new subs to integrate with my Danley DTS-10.  I've narrowed down my choices between two new passive JTR Captivators ($3,500 delivered), or building two DIY subs based on the UXL-18 driver and variations of the popular Marty/Stonehenge designs ($1,700 including QTR teak plywood, some tools + labor).

 

Because my room opens to a larger area (10,000 ft3), and I have only two locations to add more subs, I need to maximize performance within available space. Because the subs will sit in a conspicuous spot behind my sofa under an art wall, I need to minimize size so the enclosures don't overwhelming the artwork on the wall.  The Cap's give "best in class" performance while being smaller than most of the DIY enclosures I'm considering (if I lay them on their side they practically disappear). The DIY subs are considerably less expensive and would represent the best choice if their performance can be configured to be comparable to Captivators.

 

 

 

 

The UXL-18 DIY enclosures would be based upon a variation of either Chalugadp's Marty Cube design (rear port) or Eric T's Stonehenge design (side port).  The sofas are 32 inches tall and the HVAC return is near the left sub limiting it’s width.  Because my wife insists that there be clearance behind the sofas for both appearance and cleaning (we have 2 dogs), I have size limitations that make it difficult to go with a standard flat pack:

 

My ideal size would be:   30" height,  24" wide, 19" deep. 

My maximum space is:   32" height,  30" wide,  24 deep.

 

 

Location for two subwoofers behind the listening position.

 

 

All these existing options have drawbacks for my space:

 

Marty Cube  24 x 25.5 x 24  (very deep, unused height)

Mini Marty    40 x 25.5 x 24   (very tall, overwhelms wall art)

Stonehenge  30 x 30 x 15     (very tall/wide, unused depth)

Captivator    30 x 20 x 22.5  (fits great/max sound, VERY expensive)

 

So, I started looking at other ideas by first modeling two known sub designs - the Marty Cube and Full Marty, to practice my WinISD skills, validate the UXL-18 parameters from what I'd seen on AVS and create a baseline response file for looking at other options. Next, I looked at different cabinet sizes to fit my space and and port sizes to find the most efficient tuning. After creating a matrix of different enclosure dimensions with the attendant maximum port length and internal volume (not counting deductions for bracing and cone displacement) I noticed that the side vented designs yielded more net internal volume that the rear ported designs.  

 

 

The Side Vented port design would seem be a more efficient use of space. However, I have seen several interviews with Scott on Twit TV - Home Theater Geeks with various sub designers about how ported designs increase the complexity of tuning the room because every speaker and every port counts as an additional sound source for wall reflections and room nodes and nulls.  A front firing rear port will minimize these issues over a side firing port. Since slight increases in enclosure internal volume make slight increases in response and doubling sources of room reflection had more impact on in room response I'm leaning toward the front firing rear port design.  Those of you that know more, set me straight on this issue. 

 

From the matrix, I narrowed down my choices to keep things simple. Here are the variations that I have modeled so far in WinISD:

 

Marty Cube

 

24 x 25.5 x 24    5.21 ft3 @ 21.49 Hz

 

Mini Marty

 

40 x 25.5 x 24    8.9 ft3 @ 18.3 Hz

 

32' tall Marty (rear port) variation 

 

32 x 25.5 x 19      5.3 ft3 @ 22.25 Hz 

32 x 25.5 x 21    6.16 ft3 @ 19.43 Hz 

32 x 25.5 x 24    7.09 ft3 @ 18.06 Hz

 

27" wide Stonehenge (side port) variation

 

32 x 27 x 21     6.65 ft3 @ 18.22 Hz

32 x 27 x 24     7.71 ft3 @ 18.55 Hz

32 x 27 x 24     7.78 Ft3 @ 17.5 Hz

 

 

Using WinISD on my Mac computer is a real pain because I have to run it in a Windows emulator through VM Fusionware and it runs slower than hell. Plus I can't print from the emulator so I have to go through a 5 step process to transfer WinISD images to PDF's that I can access on the Mac.  So I graphed out these and various other build dimensions to confirm the internal volume (after port but before deductions for bracing and cone displacement) before modeling then inWinISD:
 

 

 

 
 
 
I first modeled all options at 1200 watts which is the nominal RMS power capability of the UXL-18 driver:
 

 

 
I was able to model a 25.5" wide x 19" deep x 32" high enclosure (BLUE) which tested identical to the MARTY CUBE at 25.5" wide x 24" deep x 24" high  (YELLOW) and would fit much better in my available space. I could have stopped there because It's the perfect wife-friendly size and performa like a Marty Cube which many of you really like.  However I wanted to explore other sizes to see if I can come closer to JTR Captivator performance in the space I have without exceeding Wife-Acceptance-Factor or getting significantly bigger than the Cap's.
 
I immediately noticed that a lower tuning frequency deepened response but reduced overall volume.  Larger box volume reduced this tradeoff somewhat, but with input power being equal, smaller enclosures were more efficient at higher SPL between 30 HZ to 50 Hz where a lot of movie content exists.  Larger enclosures allowed greater SPL below 20 Hz and rolled off more gradually after the tuning frequency than small enclosures.  
 
 
I've read the recent AVS thread on how much bass is needed for Home Theater  
 
 
 
But, I'm still unsure of where the best tradeoff is for my situation of only 3 subs with enclosure limitations in a very large 10,000 ft3 room between higher SPL for 30-50 Hz content versus deeper 10 - 20 Hz extension.  The Danley DTS-10 is a ULF beastie and currently sits corner loaded at the opposite side of the theater area. The rear UXL-18 or Captivator subs will sit directly behind the listening position (3-4 feet distance) and benefit from near field response. The DTS could cover ULF duty for below 20 Hz but I know that SPL drops logarithmically the farther you are from the source like across the room. On the other hand having the rear subs so close to the listening position makes them great or the tactile content between 30-50 Hz.
 
I don't expect to get a lot of room gain because of the large space and fractured dimensions of the larger room that the subs will have to pressurize below 20 Hz.  Using a formula posted my Mark Season on AVS, I tried to calculate what room gain I might actually get if at all:
 
 
 
 
Room layout and dimensions

 

 

 

 
When I gave all the smaller boxes 1500 watts they became comparable in SPL to the larger Mini Marty at 1200 watts.  Does that mean that you can get really low ULF excursion out of the smaller boxes at a usable level, just not at "balls to the wall" reference levels? Or that you need to drive the UXL-18 with more than 1200 watts?
 
 

 

I see people on AVS driving the UXL’s with all kinds of power over their 1200w rating. I know about the benefits of headroom and driving an amp well within it’s limits to avoid having clipping damage your speakers. However I’d like to know how you guys do this without damaging the speaker. What are the benefits and at what point does more power above the speakers’s rating become counterproductive?
 

 

I also noticed that the lower tuning frequency effects at what point the UXL-18 approaches X-Max.  This was also effected by increasing the power for more SPL and the port size and length.  Do you guys drive the UXL-18 with more than 1200 watts power to increase SPL then use a limiter to keep it from damaging itself as it gets close to Max Excursion? Doesn't this defeat the purpose of getting really low ULF response below 20 Hz.  Also what kind of slope do you use on the High Pass Filter to maximize what response the driver can give while still avoiding X-Max?  

 

 

 

 
Almost everything I have read on AVS Forum DIY recommends that you keep port velocity below 32 f/s to avoid port noise. However when I model the Marty Cube (79.69 f/s) and Mini Marty (70.23 f/s), they both have speeds ABOVE the recommended 32 f/s and yet no one complains about chuffing or port noise:
 
 

 

 

Even the JTR Captivator appears to have only a 2 inch port size when tuned at 17 Hz. It will blow a sleeping bag across the room on YouTube but no one complains about too much noise emanating from it's port:
 
 

 

 
Do the explosions and special effects drown out the port noise when playing action movies sequences and they become un-noticeable? If I stay under 85 f/s reasonably close to the Marty designs am I OK?  I also noticed velocity is a function of port size, length and shape.  If I increase the port size it changes the response and port length. Do I just increase port length to go for the lowest tuning the box dimensions will allow then increase port size to bring the rear port velocity down under 85 f/s?  Everyone says a square slot port is more efficient, but a round port with flares decreases rear velocity. I was told by Scott at FI Audio that a flared slot port is the best of both designs but how do you do that with only 3/4" thick plywood and 2" port height on the front baffle ? Increasing power for higher SPLs also speeds up port velocity and aggravates this problem. At what power level can I drive the UXL-18 to it's maximum safe potential in these designs and not exacerbate port noise to the point it becomes a problem.
 
Speaking of power what amp do you recommend for the UXL-18?  Everyone posting on this question says that depends upon enclosure volume and tuning frequency.  These are the enclosure combinations I'm considering:
 
 

32' tall Marty (rear port) variation 

 

32 x 25.5 x 19      5.3 ft3 @ 22.25 Hz 

32 x 25.5 x 21    6.16 ft3 @ 19.43 Hz 

32 x 25.5 x 24    7.09 ft3 @ 18.06 Hz    (1'st choice)

 

27" wide Stonehenge (side port) variation

 

32 x 27 x 21     6.65 ft3 @ 18.22 Hz

32 x 27 x 24     7.71 ft3 @ 18.55 Hz

32 x 27 x 24     7.78 Ft3 @ 17.5 Hz

 

 

IST specifies the UXL-18 driver at 1200 watts at 3.2 ohms nominal. JTR sells the passive Captivator wired for 2 ohm, 4 ohm or 8 ohm but doesn't specify RMS rating. They sell the Captivator 2400 with a 2,400 watt plate amp, but don't specify the impedance. I'm assuming the passive model needs a nominal feed of 2,400w @ 4 ohm (I could be wrong). Have any of you owned passive Captivators and know the answer to this question (or amp recommendation)? Will any of these enclosure combinations approach the performance of a JTR Captivator and what amp might work for both?  

 

Here are the amps that I am looking at:

 

 

 

Behringer iNuke 6000   ($399 - best price)

 

The Behringer iNuke’s are the cheapest and come with DSP, but I have read lots of posts about their equipment failing on the pro audio forums.  The only real independent analysis I could find on the iNuke 6000 was on speakerplans.com where the differences in amp topology were highlighted the unit tested significantly less power than rated:

 

Rated   1600w @ 8 ohm, 3100w @ 4 ohn

Tested  1160w @ 8 ohm, 1800w @ 4 ohm

 

http://forum.speakerplans.com/behringer-inuke-nu6000-vs-kam-kxd7200-bench-tested_topic69202.html

 

The iNuke 6000 also ran out of steam at the 2012 Northeast October GTG when driving dual. LMS 5400’s. Sometimes you get what you pay for and I might be willing to pay additional for a more substantial amp (especially if I go with the Captivators which are very power hungry). 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1434901/northeast-october-20th-gtg-results-thread/0_100

 

 

QSC RMX 4050HD   ($849 – best linear amp)

 

When I built the my DTS-10 sub I asked Ivan Beaver at Danley Sound Labs what he thought the best amp/impedance wiring combination he recommended. Since the DTS-10 was rated for 2000 watts @ 4 ohms and he said the QSC RMX 4050HD was his top choice as it’s stable to extremely low impedance and very high current demands. I bought one used on ebay for $849 and had it bench tested to check it out…gobs of power meeting and surpassing the specs. It’s a hybrid A/B design, is built like a tank and weighs a ton.  I am more familiar with this amp this amp than the other choices. I believe it’s a much more stable amp than the Behringers.

 

The QSC 4050 s rated at 1400w @ 4 ohms and 2500w @ 2 ohms which reasonably matches the nominal rating of the UXL-18 driver for 1200w @ 3.2 ohms. It’s probably slightly under powered for the 2400w power hungry Captivators. At the 2012 Northeast October GTG sub shoot out, the passive caps even drove a Crown XLS-5000 rated at 2500w @ 2 ohms to the limit.

 

Peavy IPR2 7500   ($799 – best digital amp)

 

Digital amps have come a long way and I this amp is highly rated by many on AVS Forum.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1478788/new-amp-choice-for-sub-duty-cv5000-or-peavey-ipr7500/0_100

 

It’s the only amp in the chart who’s manufacturer published stable power ratings for 2, 4 and 8 ohms at both 1 channel bridged and 2 channels driven.  With 3750w @ 2 ohms, It’s probably sufficient to drive the 2400w Captivators, but I’d want to talk to Jeff at JTR to figure the optimum way to wire them.  It may be too much power for the UXL-18’s.  

 

My other consideration, is the amount on noise that switching amplifiers feed back onto the AC grid in my house. While I have a dedicated 20 amp circuit with it’s own common for the rear subs, everything connects at the main panel. I spent too much on Panamax, Fuhrman and Tributaries power conditioners to load a lot more noise back onto the power grid. That being said, the Peavy is probably my top choice for the Captivators.

 

---------------------------

 

Frankly, for a neewbie like me, trying to juggle all these DIY parameters feels like solving a really complex Rubic's Cube with one hand tied behind your back.  I know that if I just save up long enough, I can eventually buy two passive JTR 2400 Captivators ($3,478 delivered) and a Peavy IPR2 7500 ($699 amazon) be done with it. Or I can invest about $1,700 now and might end up with a mess if I don't know what I'm doing.

 

I should probably just fly my X-wing star fighter off to the subwoofer swamps of Dagobah and ask Master Yoda, I mean LTD02 if he can impart the sacred knowledge of A.N. Thiele and Richard H. Small so I can use the power of the AVS Force to build my subs.  But I was hoping all you other DIY Jeddi Masters could point me in the right direction before I bothered the Supremeus Submaximus.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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post #1352 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 04:48 PM
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That's a helluva post. I have no answers but thanks for the read.
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post #1353 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 04:55 PM
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Many good questions in a long post

1) definitely go with diy. Not only will you save money, equal performance, but it's fun.
2) your Marty of 7 cuft and 18hz is the best choice for that space. Remember that the actual tuning is usually 1 to 1.5 hz lower than modelling. My cube is at 20hz and my minimarty is just under 17hz.
3) the Uxl18 loves 2200 watts of power. That's what I run into my cube to it. That's what many others do as well. Jbrown is running two Uxl18 off of one inuke 6000 dsp and it is explosive. The inukes for the price are hard to beat. Yes the others are nicer looking but costlier.
4) with all the help you can get it here it's not that hard. Tools wise you need a router and I love my Bosch laminate router for sub building.
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post #1354 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 04:58 PM
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Oh here is the graph of martycube with Uxl18 driver. It's the red one.


That's the 5 cuft cube. If you push it to 7cuft you can add 2-3dbs. Why can't you do minimarty but lay it down. Then it's 40"long and 24" high and 24" deep. You gain another two dbs with that

Also it's ltd02 design for all the martysubs
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post #1356 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 05:18 PM
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And a stronger digital amp is the SpeakerPower SP2-8000 (SP2-12000 at 240V). I ran mine against a IPR-7500 and the SP2-8000 is definitely more powerful (and quieter with quiet fan option). SpeakerPower amps power JTR and Seaton subs.
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post #1358 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 08:25 PM
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post #1359 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 08:35 PM
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If you plan on using SpeaketPower amps I would recommend emailing Mark Seaton about buying one, he'll most likely give you a better price.
They're excellent amps and it's not just JTR that uses them. They can be found in Seaton speakers, Danley and Triax subs too.

And you are correct, only non-DSP versions are available to the public.

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Personally I think you're way over thinking the size of the subs, pick a size the works for you and just go with it.

My Gear:

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post

You're probably right. But what would be the FUN in moderation?
rolleyes.gif

I say go with the biggest size the wife will let you get away with. wink.gif

As far as amps go, I have to say so far I'm extremely happy with powering two UXL-18's from a single iNuke 6000DSP. I used have my second amp up and running powering the second pair of SUVs that I've built/building.

My Gear:

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post #1364 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 10:14 PM
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peter, you should get some sort of an award for that post. i can't recall seeing anybody do that much homework before posting...EVER!



just to jump right to the bottom line, you have defined your size limitations, so like joe (jbrown15) said, just build within that. the side firing are no more effective at using space than front firing. it may just appear that way from one build to another.

his subs can serve as a good model (not size, but general plan). front mounted driver. side firing slot port. double front baffle. etc. maybe a little more bracing though. :-)~



lots of good info in the thread and a good summary in the first post:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1506201/ltd-m18-sub-build/

for you, a 32" square that is 20" deep nets about 8.5 cubic feet internal.

a 3" tall slot port as drawn in the picture will have an effective (red path) of around 48", perhaps a smidgen more.

there is a whole lot on slot ports and what makes them effectively longer than their physical dimensions. see the original martysub post for some info and links to discussion/data if interested.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1489541/large-ported-dayton-ho18s#post_23711347



that will tune the box to around 17hz, which is a good tradeoff for what you are trying to accomplish.

winisd model with 2200 watts:



for power an inuke 3000dsp will give about 2200 watts into 4 ohms bridged and has full DSP.

there is also a 6000dsp which can do the same off each channel.

I'm not sure which is the better way to go though, two 3000's or a single 6000 when talking about maxing out the power supply.

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post #1365 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 10:19 PM
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I'm not going to lie, Peter's post was great but my A.D.D. kicked in half way thru it and I lost all interest....lol smile.gif
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the part about the port providing a "second source" is not a problem for subwoofers in general because the wavelength is so long relative to the distance between the port and the driver.

when the distance between two sources is less than about 1/4 wavelength, they will combine in such a way as to effectively be a single source. at 80hz, 1/4 wavelength is about 3.5 feet, so if the drivers and the port are within that distance (as measured from the listening point to each source), they will function as a single source.

the part about air velocity and chuffing isn't completely understood either. 17 m/s is a rough rule for port velocity thought good results are achieved even when that is exceeded. masking is probably a large part of why folks don't notice it. by the time something like your subs is maxing out the port velocity, the spl in the room from all sources will likely be extremely loud and will completely mask any chuffing from the subs.

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post #1367 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I'm not going to lie, Peter's post was great but my A.D.D. kicked in half way thru it and I lost all interest....lol smile.gif

fish oil. :-)~

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post #1368 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 10:36 PM
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1200 watts is a conservative method for rating the power of the driver.

they can take more, particularly for the "short bursts" type bass that most movies have.

2200 watts seems to be a reasonable short burst number.

just don't be stupid and run full power sine waves through the sub or you could cook it.

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post #1369 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 10:38 PM
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as for a comparison with the captivator, that is always tough, but the drivers are kind of similar and so with similar power in a roughly similar enclosure tuned to about the same point (cap is around 17-18hz too), the end result will be quite similar.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #1370 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 10:38 PM
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Peter just needs to buy one of these wink.gif



Then he can just keep building until he finds something that fits his needs!...lol smile.gif

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post #1371 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 10:41 PM
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Only thing I would want a. Cnc machine for is the driver opening. Could get a perfect fit.
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post #1372 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Only thing I would want a. Cnc machine for is the driver opening. Could get a perfect fit.

You mean like this wink.gif




The other nice thing is that every piece is cut perfectly to size. smile.gif

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post #1373 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post

But they only sell the plate amps with custom DSP to speaker manufacturers:

I could rewire the outlet in the audio closet for the rear subs for 220v dual phase instead of 120v single phase and get the SP-12000 or SP-6400. That might give me more headroom than the 120v versions.  These guys are going to be at The Show in Newport Beach May 30 - June 1 with Seaton Sound Room 365 in the Hilton. I'll check them out. Any idea what they cost?

SpeakerPower sells the non-DSP units, plate or rack, to individuals but they only sell the DSP units to companies using their amps in a commercial product. This just means you'll need to add a separate equalizer.
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post #1374 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 11:34 PM
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"Peter just needs to buy one of these"

sweet.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #1375 of 1388 Old 05-17-2014, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Only thing I would want a. Cnc machine for is the driver opening. Could get a perfect fit.

Donny even without that CNC machine, if you saw that wood shop you would have thought you had died and gone to heaven smile.gif

They even have a super sweet paint booth.

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post #1376 of 1388 Old 05-18-2014, 12:00 AM
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I've seen few nice ones. Only things I'm missing that would make it easier are a nice paint booth, a shaper, a horizontal sander, and a slurpee machine smile.gif
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post #1377 of 1388 Old 05-25-2014, 11:05 AM
 
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Did the UXL come with screws? I am about to mount my driver and can't find any in the box.
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post #1378 of 1388 Old 05-25-2014, 11:08 AM
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No,
I used #10 by 1.25"
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post #1379 of 1388 Old 05-25-2014, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWagstaff View Post

Did the UXL come with screws? I am about to mount my driver and can't find any in the box.

I recommend black pocket screws from Lowes. They have a built in washer, square drive, and self tapping.

http://m.lowes.com/product?langId=-1&storeId=10702&catalogId=10051&productId=3306556&store=1596&view=detail&nValue=SEARCH
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post #1380 of 1388 Old 05-25-2014, 12:25 PM
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Don't need a washer with #10 Robertson screws. They are perfect size to hold sub down with tremendous pressure. Eight of these screws could hold down 4 sub's of pressure.
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