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post #91 of 136 Old 09-25-2014, 08:50 AM
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Correct John. But the max long term sweeps are stopped when the driver is clearly at the end of the rope. Its not always a full 5dB increase on the last sweep. It is often 2dB or 3. The UXL will not survive any further than what was measured. The HST has much more available stroke past what the the UXL has. It isn't particularly linear in that range and hence why the CEA scores are close in the deep bass, but it provides a large amount of safety from bottoming the driver. The UXL wasn't driven further during CEA testing because it was obviously close to tapping out. I did end up blowing the driver when I did not adjust the gains back down for the distortion testing.

In a nut shell the UXL has better sensitivity and top end output and likely lower distortion overall. The HST has more stroke and deep bass headroom and is more rugged and tolerant of abuse. The full set of data shows this pretty clearly. Cea2010 data is all it seems anyone looks at.
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post #92 of 136 Old 09-25-2014, 08:57 AM
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Not everybody.

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post #93 of 136 Old 09-25-2014, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
Correct John. But the max long term sweeps are stopped when the driver is clearly at the end of the rope. Its not always a full 5dB increase on the last sweep. It is often 2dB or 3. The UXL will not survive any further than what was measured. The HST has much more available stroke past what the the UXL has. It isn't particularly linear in that range and hence why the CEA scores are close in the deep bass, but it provides a large amount of safety from bottoming the driver. The UXL wasn't driven further during CEA testing because it was obviously close to tapping out. I did end up blowing the driver when I did not adjust the gains back down for the distortion testing.

In a nut shell the UXL has better sensitivity and top end output and likely lower distortion overall. The HST has more stroke and deep bass headroom and is more rugged and tolerant of abuse. The full set of data shows this pretty clearly. Cea2010 data is all it seems anyone looks at.

Okay so here's one for you Josh, if both drivers are placed in a 4cu/ft cabinet and both powered with say 2000watts would there be a big difference in output between the UXL and HST or is this really just a big pi$$ing match?
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post #94 of 136 Old 09-25-2014, 09:41 AM
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Josh pretty much answered your question already.

They are quite neck and neck until the very ragged edge of performance where the HST18 bests the UXL in pure mechanical stroke.

In your case as a quad UXL owner, I'd sleep easy. Real easy.

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post #95 of 136 Old 09-25-2014, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Josh pretty much answered your question already.

They are quite neck and neck until the very ragged edge of performance where the HST18 bests the UXL in pure mechanical stroke.

In your case as a quad UXL owner, I'd sleep easy. Real easy.

That's kind of what I thought too Scott. The HST-18 basically seems to have a little safety factor built in, so you don't have to worry about bottoming out the driver. But the UXL-18 is right there as far as performance right to that point. I was curious as I want to build another sub for the back of my room so I'm just trying to decide between sticking with another UXL-18 or try out the HST-18.
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post #96 of 136 Old 09-25-2014, 10:45 AM
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post #97 of 136 Old 09-25-2014, 10:53 AM
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For those of you on the fence and in the market for a driver I'll say this:

I have not used any Mach 5 products and they do look nice and appear to perform quite well. But, I have personally ordered and used 22 drivers from Nick at stereo integrity. Every single one has been rock solid and can really take a beating while performing at it's best. I've been very happy with the quality of their product and level of customer service from them and will continue to order for the forseeable future. The pricing is unbeatable also IMO for what you're getting.

Just sayin.
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post #98 of 136 Old 09-25-2014, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
That's kind of what I thought too Scott. The HST-18 basically seems to have a little safety factor built in, so you don't have to worry about bottoming out the driver. But the UXL-18 is right there as far as performance right to that point. I was curious as I want to build another sub for the back of my room so I'm just trying to decide between sticking with another UXL-18 or try out the HST-18.
Definitely. I'd say for the sake of variety to try out the HST for your nearfield system but either way you will have more than adequate output and SQ.

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For those of you on the fence and in the market for a driver I'll say this:

I have not used any Mach 5 products and they do look nice and appear to perform quite well. But, I have personally ordered and used 22 drivers from Nick at stereo integrity. Every single one has been rock solid and can really take a beating while performing at it's best. I've been very happy with the quality of their product and level of customer service from them and will continue to order for the forseeable future. The pricing is unbeatable also IMO for what you're getting.

Just sayin.
Agreed. I haven't bought nearly as much but I own nine HT18's and they are all solid products. Happy with my purchase and had a good experience with the guys at SI.

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post #99 of 136 Old 09-25-2014, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post
For those of you on the fence and in the market for a driver I'll say this:

I have not used any Mach 5 products and they do look nice and appear to perform quite well. But, I have personally ordered and used 22 drivers from Nick at stereo integrity. Every single one has been rock solid and can really take a beating while performing at it's best. I've been very happy with the quality of their product and level of customer service from them and will continue to order for the forseeable future. The pricing is unbeatable also IMO for what you're getting.

Just sayin.
Quote:
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Definitely. I'd say for the sake of variety to try out the HST for your nearfield system but either way you will have more than adequate output and SQ.



Agreed. I haven't bought nearly as much but I own nine HT18's and they are all solid products. Happy with my purchase and had a good experience with the guys at SI.
Add another 25 drivers that have been in and out of my hands from SI. 22 SI HT18's, 2 HST's, and a 24 that honestly I should go to jail over how bad we abused it. All have just kept on ticking, have INCREDIBLE sound quality, and are built by the man himself Proud to be a Stereo Integrity owner for sure...
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post #100 of 136 Old 09-25-2014, 02:16 PM
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Just looking at my HST 18 puts a smile on my face. I can only imagine the grin I will have once I fire it up. I will probably start thinking of SI as Smiles Inc.


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post #101 of 136 Old 10-01-2014, 01:23 AM
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How can a 18" woofer possibly deliver 116.6 db, 30 Hz at 2 meter distance. I calculate 45+ mm excursion for that to happen?

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post #102 of 136 Old 10-01-2014, 01:31 AM
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How can a 18" woofer possibly deliver 116.6 db, 30 Hz at 2 meter distance. I calculate 45+ mm excursion for that to happen. That doesent seem to make any sense?

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Probably the same way that the LMS-U, UXL-18, BMS and XXX drivers all can
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post #103 of 136 Old 10-01-2014, 01:55 AM
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The UXL actually "only" does ~113db, that is quite a difference, but I see what you mean. Those are crazy numbers.

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post #104 of 136 Old 10-01-2014, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
Correct John. But the max long term sweeps are stopped when the driver is clearly at the end of the rope. Its not always a full 5dB increase on the last sweep. It is often 2dB or 3. The UXL will not survive any further than what was measured. The HST has much more available stroke past what the the UXL has. It isn't particularly linear in that range and hence why the CEA scores are close in the deep bass, but it provides a large amount of safety from bottoming the driver. The UXL wasn't driven further during CEA testing because it was obviously close to tapping out. I did end up blowing the driver when I did not adjust the gains back down for the distortion testing.

In a nut shell the UXL has better sensitivity and top end output and likely lower distortion overall. The HST has more stroke and deep bass headroom and is more rugged and tolerant of abuse. The full set of data shows this pretty clearly. Cea2010 data is all it seems anyone looks at.
so really instead of all those NA's for the UXL, it should pretty much be filled in with the 2010 numbers or at least foot noted to what you just metioned. otherwise all those NA's give the impression that it wasn't driven/measured full tilt.

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post #105 of 136 Old 10-01-2014, 02:45 AM
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OK. Let me try once more. I simply dont get these numbers. Does this chart show that the woofer was measured to deliver 119.3 db at 31.5 Hz and at a distance of 2 m?

If so, how can that possibly be. Is it not the same as 125.3db at 1 m?

If I calculate the required stroke to achieve that, I end up with 65+ mm ??? (Also the model predicts that it takes 242V to get there instead of 158V)

Is this the correct way to interpret it?

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post #106 of 136 Old 10-01-2014, 10:25 PM
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i was just looking at that this evening as well.


winisd model at 1 watt no inductance effects (dark blue) vs. ricci measured results at a voltage equal to about 1.17 watts (2 volts into an re of about 3.4 ohms).


i'm not quite sure what is going on there either.


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post #107 of 136 Old 10-02-2014, 06:16 AM
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Guys...The main problem is that one is a measurement of something rather complex and the other is a VERY simple simulation. I have been saying this for a while...Winisd cannot make an accurate sim of some sub drivers. This one included. You should always consider that there is at least a 1 dB tolerance on measurements and also that inductance effects can change the sensitivity. Also make sure that you are using volts and not watts as input and that they are equivalent. Check your driver input parameters too. Either way it is still not going to match up. This is why I shake my head when guys are bench racing systems in Winisd. The only thing I find it useful for anymore is keeping a library of driver parameters.

Surprise this is a very long stroke driver. It will do around 4" peak to peak at least. Look at the 20-31.5Hz for the XXX it is even a bit more. This is another issue using Winisd. When using it to calculate excursion...How much stroke does it take 1000cm to produce 110dB at 30Hz? How about at 60Hz? 90Hz? Etc...The actual stroke is a bit less than what would be calculated. Think about what the simulation is basing its calculations off of and what is actually happening in the measurement.
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post #108 of 136 Old 10-02-2014, 07:51 AM
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Fantastic post...thanks Ricci! I felt like I saw this too on the old RE's when I had them and we looked at several models. Things didn't quite add up right. Do you think this issue is just going to be reality for some drivers in WinISD forever, or is it something they could potentially update with firmware to get a more accurate response? Do other sim programs exhibit the same problems?

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post #109 of 136 Old 10-02-2014, 08:37 AM
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Fantastic post...thanks Ricci! I felt like I saw this too on the old RE's when I had them and we looked at several models. Things didn't quite add up right. Do you think this issue is just going to be reality for some drivers in WinISD forever, or is it something they could potentially update with firmware to get a more accurate response? Do other sim programs exhibit the same problems?
Short of simply measuring the driver of choice in an actual enclosure, probably not. You could probably get closer to the real world with some very complex simulations but this would require quite an algorithm and many, many more direct specifications of said driver. Would take a lot of cooperation from both a smart software engineer and a talented and informed speaker designer with the right tools to get these parameters.

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post #110 of 136 Old 10-02-2014, 12:31 PM
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What I meant was when winisd or other software are calculating the excursion there are assumptions being made about the atmospheric conditions, the environment, the effective SD of the driver, etc...And it is also assumed that the speaker is reproducing a 100% pure signal which they never are. Some of those peak burst numbers are with 100% THD and accompanied by significant non harmonic mechanical noises as well

If you are wondering yes I noticed this same thing a while back. The LMS also hits a few numbers that it technically should not be able to based on the xmech. Though it was about 0.1 dB backed off from making mechanical contact. I have my calibrator and mics sent off to be calibrated. Also I have 4 different calibrators and all of them are within a half dB even the cheap one. I've also had guys at HSU, SVS and Powersound all match up their internal numbers to mine within less than a dB. I still don't have a quick easy answer to give.

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post #111 of 136 Old 04-02-2015, 08:50 AM
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Is the HST-18 suitable for up or down firing or will gravity get the better of it? Also, how much of the enclosure's volume does the basket, motor, cone, etc displace?
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post #112 of 136 Old 04-02-2015, 08:55 AM
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It's fine to use it that way.

Not sure on the displacement stuff but I'd like to know as well.

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post #113 of 136 Old 04-02-2015, 07:21 PM
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I thought the 18 was .26ft like the Zv4. I know they arent the same but I am thinking the Zv4 is slightly bigger overall anyways.
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post #114 of 136 Old 04-02-2015, 08:23 PM
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I thought the 18 was .26ft like the Zv4. I know they arent the same but I am thinking the Zv4 is slightly bigger overall anyways.
That seems way too low. The 21SW152 displaces .56ft³ and it has a much smaller motor.
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post #115 of 136 Old 04-02-2015, 10:48 PM
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Ya what was I thinking. The Basket when surface mounted on 18mm plywood would ave about a .6 cuft. That is 16.5" x 5". Then we have the motor which is 5" x 9" roughly = .184cuft. SO maybe .75-.78 for the 18HST?

Seems more realistic also but how much are we going to give to air? .15?

So maybe closure to .6cuft. Also I cant believe I just saw the RE XXX have only a .3cuft spec. The SI 18HT has a spec of only .25cuft. IDK

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post #116 of 136 Old 04-03-2015, 05:42 AM
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There is a lot of free air between the basket and cone.
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post #117 of 136 Old 04-03-2015, 07:04 AM
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The SI 18HT has a spec of only .25cuft. IDK
The Dayton RSS390HO-4 15" is listed at .216ft³, so maybe that's reasonable for the SI 18HT. I realize the motors on theses subs are usually vented and so they're not a solid object displacing air, but still it seems like the large motors on the high power woofers should have some noticeable impact on displacement... Does the cone sit further forward in the basket/frame on some of these offsetting the larger motor some?
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post #118 of 136 Old 04-03-2015, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Not sure on the displacement stuff but I'd like to know as well.

From SI's site:

Cutout: 16.7″
Outer Diameter: 18.5″
Mounting depth: 9.5″
Mounting flange to top of surround: 1.5″
Displacement: 0.25 ft^3
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post #119 of 136 Old 04-03-2015, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
I still don't have a quick easy answer to give.

possibly a hint at the strangeness: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_7/2.html


thd of the first nine components is only 43% for a square wave.


maybe what is happening with the burst testing at the limits is the driver output is getting squared off and the measurement software is interpolating the effect into a higher spl.


rms value of a sine wave is 0.707 * peak.


with a square wave (perfect) rms value is 1.00 * peak.


so as you start to square off the wave, the peak (xmax) need not increase to produce a higher measured rms level at the mic.

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post #120 of 136 Old 04-03-2015, 02:49 PM
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Oh it's totally about distortion...That was what all my comments above were about. Trying to get some thought put into it without just coming out and saying it. That comment was more about some of the sensitivity measurements. Also so far there seems to be a bit more directivity to bass freq's than usually assumed. It isn't quite omni even when coming from a 24" cube. I think that is a piece. Another having perhaps to do with nearfield effects.
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