Tapped Horn, Ported, or Sealed subwoofer for home theater? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old 01-12-2014, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Im looking to start a new project and it seems to me that my klipsch s12 is lacking in the low end and sq department. I just built a pair of cornscalas a few months back and am looking to build diysoundgroups new tux10-99 for my center. I guess my question is which one is best suited for my needs. I primarily watch movies but also crank up the music so i would like a sub that is capable of both. I am new to the world of diy so any info is helpful. As far as i know and correct me if im wrong but sealed enclosures are more for a tight space, ported hits the deep bass heard in movies, and the tapped horns take little power to be loud. I honestly dont know much about the tapped horns but they interest me.

 

 

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post #2 of 31 Old 01-12-2014, 04:50 PM
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Looks like you've done some research. DIY is definitely the way to go, especially in the subwoofer department. You can save yourself a lot of cash.

Commenting on what you said above, here's my take on it.

Sealed :

Easiest to build, can generally be the smallest enclosure, but can also be just as big as ported / horn subs if needed.

Has potentially the lowest frequency extension, due to the air spring of a box acting like "insurance". One can use multiple sealed subwoofers with or without subsonic filters, and with a bit of eq, get a flat frequency response down under 20hz, to the single digits. There is plenty of movie content below 20hz (where we stop hearing it), but it is up to you whether or not you want to pursue the last few octaves.

"Generally" the most power hungry of the 3 enclosures.

Ported :

Based on the box size, you can "tune" your box to a certain frequency, using a slot or pipe as a port. A port will give you free volume at the port frequency, sometimes up to 2-3x louder then the equivalent sealed subwoofer. The disadvantage, is ported subs unload under the port frequency. So if you made a ported box tuned to 20hz, you would use a filter at 20hz or just below to stop the driver from being damaged. This means you won't get much more output under where the filter is activated.

Ported boxes can be made huge (10-15cuft is a good number), to give you an increase in output across the board, since a filter is being used to stop overexcursion, we can take full advantage (and sometimes more) of the driver's power rating.

They can also be tuned low, around 15hz if you desire, to give you a good balance of low frequency extension that a sealed box would have, while keeping a bit of output gained from the port.

Next to horn subs, they generally get the loudest, so if you have a big space to fill with bass, or can deal with a huge box, they are an obvious choice.

A good design to look at is the "Martysub" designed by Marty and LTD02 on the forums. It's 12cubic foot ported box tuned to around 17hz, designed to work with multiple different 18" sub drivers.

Horn:

Gives you the most output for the $$, they are the most sensitive of the 3. This means with the equal amplifier power used, they should play louder then the equivalent sealed or ported box (all things equal).

They have a "corner" frequency, similar to a ported subwoofer. Horns should almost always have a subsonic filter to stop super-low frequencies from coming through underneath the corner frequency, and damaging the driver... just like a ported subs port frequency.

Horns are big, usually bigger then ported or sealed subs. They require significant size in order to push the corner frequency lower in the bass spectrum. So if you want a horn that plays as low as a sealed sub, or a large, low-tuned ported sub, prepare for something that's HUGE.

Most difficult to build, has many bends and folds.

A good horn design that doesn't sacrafice much extension or volume is the THT (tuba home theater) design by Bill Fitzmaurice, and the F20 (design by Lilmike).


Everyone one of these should sound "musical", if setup properly and used within their operating capabilities.

As far as what to go with? Well that depends on your goals.

Do you want to spend $500? $5000?
Do you want low frequency extension to the single digits? Or is 20hz suitable?
Do you have space to fit a 10-15cuft box?
Can you fit multiples in your room? Multiple subwoofers improves bass response by smoothing room modes.

Giving us an outline based on these/your criteria, and we can better recommend you something.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsnasty View Post

...Horns are big, - prepare for something that's HUGE...
Most difficult to build, has many bends and folds.
And these are important consideration; Horns are prime examples of Hoffman's Law.
The are large and optimized for a narrower bandwidth - no free lunch.

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post #4 of 31 Old 01-12-2014, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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500 is the range i was looking to stay in. I was looking at the svs pbs12 but was wondering if a diy sub could be as good if not better in that price range. I really enjoy building my own speakers so this also intrigued me.

 

So it sounds like my two best choices would be a big ported sub or 2 sealed subs. Would having a left and right sealed sub be better than stacking them? Ive heard of people stacking subs but wasnt sure if it was for sound or space. I know a lot of movies nowadays go down as low as 15hz and im not sure if i need a sub that goes that low since you cant hear it. My current sub only goes down to 28hz so i would like to hit at least 20hz. And with the multiple subs are you saying that there will be equal or more uniform bass throughout the room? I have noticed that with my current sub that there are parts in the room that have more bass.

 

Thanks for all the info it really helps.

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post #5 of 31 Old 01-12-2014, 06:22 PM
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If you have the room for a LLT you can get single digit bass with much better efficiency than sealed. Mine have good (10db down) in-room output down to the 5-6 Hz range with peak output around 13Hz.

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post #6 of 31 Old 01-12-2014, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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How much room do you need for a LLT sub?

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How Low is the big question that still needs answering.

This forum is filled with some of the most loony ULF junkies I've ever encountered, so most guys here are chasing the single digits dragon (and most end up spending wayyyyy more than 500).

if you are fine with 20 (which is still quite low, lower than any 500 dollar commercial products will be hitting), a Marty sub, a THT or a Lilwrecker can do it in your budget (and give you SPL)
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post #8 of 31 Old 01-12-2014, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdline73 View Post

How much room do you need for a LLT sub?

18+ cu ft

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post #9 of 31 Old 01-12-2014, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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18 cu ft! Wow that's a little to big for me haha. What about a tube sub? I've heard good things about those.
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post #10 of 31 Old 01-12-2014, 08:34 PM
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18 cf for an 18" driver perhaps, but you could build using a smaller driver, and box with commensurately less output and efficiency.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdline73 View Post

So it sounds like my two best choices would be a big ported sub or 2 sealed subs. Would having a left and right sealed sub be better than stacking them? Ive heard of people stacking subs but wasnt sure if it was for sound or space. I know a lot of movies nowadays go down as low as 15hz and im not sure if i need a sub that goes that low since you cant hear it. My current sub only goes down to 28hz so i would like to hit at least 20hz. And with the multiple subs are you saying that there will be equal or more uniform bass throughout the room? I have noticed that with my current sub that there are parts in the room that have more bass.
Stacking gets louder but the bass may still be uneven through your room, a pair or more subs spread out around your room can even up the response if done right (ideally with measurements). Be prepared that left and right won't necessarily be the prime spots though.
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post #12 of 31 Old 01-12-2014, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I never thought that there were so many variables and options when it came to subs. Any info on the tube subs?
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post #13 of 31 Old 01-12-2014, 09:21 PM
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a "tube" sub (I assume you mean sonotube sub) has the advantage of being easy to build. Other than that, it follows all the other laws of subwoofers (takes the same cubic volume for any given output as any other).
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I like the sound of the sonotube subs due to the smaller footprint. I still can't decide if I want ported or sealed! This became a lot more difficult haha.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdline73 View Post

I like the sound of the sonotube subs due to the smaller footprint. I still can't decide if I want ported or sealed! This became a lot more difficult haha.

I personally prefer ported as you get up to 10db or so in increased output around the tuning frequency compared to a sealed sub. That, to me, makes a huge difference. If you go sealed, I would highly recommend using a MiniDsp to boost the bottom end.
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I like the sound of the sonotube subs due to the smaller footprint. I still can't decide if I want ported or sealed! This became a lot more difficult haha.

My LLTs are built using 24" diameter sonotubes, the footprint is about 4 sq ft and they are about 7 ft tall (18 cu ft tuned to 11 Hz).

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I only have enough room for 5 ft tall. How do you tune with ports? I've seen people have certain kind of bends of PVC pipe that go to the ports but I dont understand were the bends are supposed to go to achieve the hz they want.
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The ports can be straight. The bends are just to fit them in the box. For a sonosub you should be able to hang your port straight down from the center of the top cap. For tuning that depends on the driver and box volume; winisd will let you model different drivers and enclosures to determine what fits your needs.

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post #19 of 31 Old 01-13-2014, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdline73 View Post

I like the sound of the sonotube subs due to the smaller footprint. I still can't decide if I want ported or sealed! This became a lot more difficult haha.

They are technically not smaller. A square has more area for the same "radius"; ~27% more. Where R = Radius, see below However, it is a bit easier to go vertical with a sonotube because of its natural shape. However, you then need to make the cut-outs (caps) for the end which can be more stressful than trying to build a box if you don't have the right tools. A sonotube isn't a free lunch; it is just a different method. Building a sonotube without a good router and jig is like building a box without a good circle/table saw and guides.

Area of a circle = 3.14 * R^2
Area of a square = (2 * R)^2 = 4 * R^2

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They are technically not smaller. A square has more area for the same "radius"; ~27% more. Where R = Radius, see below However, it is a bit easier to go vertical with a sonotube because of its natural shape. However, you then need to make the cut-outs (caps) for the end which can be more stressful than trying to build a box if you don't have the right tools. A sonotube isn't a free lunch; it is just a different method. Building a sonotube without a good router and jig is like building a box without a good circle/table saw and guides.

Area of a circle = 3.14 * R^2
Area of a square = (2 * R)^2 = 4 * R^2

This is true, but building a tall box with a small footprint out of ply or mdf will be much heavier than a sonotube build.

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I only have enough room for 5 ft tall. How do you tune with ports?.
An impedance sweep in frequency is performed and the characteristic peaks in the sweep are recorded at the particular frequency of occurrence.
The port length is adjusted and the procedure repeated

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I have access to a cnc router table so I am not worried about cutting anything. Is winisd fairly simple to use? Well I guess ill be going with a ported sub and im leaning towards the sonosub due to lack of room. My next question is about subs. Are there certain subs that perform better in a ported box than others? Should I go with a 12 or 15 and which brand?

Thanks for the info everyone!
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...Are there certain subs that perform better in a ported box than others? Should I go with a 12 or 15 and which brand?
Speaker are designed for applications - including type of enclosure.
The T/S parameters can provide insight into which speakers are best suited for any particular enclosure.
There are "general" guidelines
A competent manufacturer will provide usage suggestions.
I'd use a 15.

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This is true, but building a tall box with a small footprint out of ply or mdf will be much heavier than a sonotube build.

Very valid point on the weight. What does "weight" mean to you? How do you value it?

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How low do you need! Imo with a single sub its foolish to go sealed even if using an lms ultra. Do a low tuned ported enclosure.
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Very valid point on the weight. What does "weight" mean to you? How do you value it?

It's probably not a concern once the boxes are in place but could be if the boxes were too top heavy. With a sonosub most of the weight is at the bottom increasing stability. It's also nicer to move around a lighter box when trying to determine final placement.

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.... It's also nicer to move around a lighter box when trying to determine final placement.
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It's probably not a concern once the boxes are in place but could be if the boxes were too top heavy. With a sonosub most of the weight is at the bottom increasing stability. It's also nicer to move around a lighter box when trying to determine final placement.

Not saying one way is better than the other, just rambling. If you go dual-opposed, then that isn't quite true on the weight which is a nice nearly native feature of sealed sono-tube design. As for top heavy, a strap can managed that if concerned. I believe I seen people use sound isolation clips to make sure their little friends don't get to rambunctious.

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post #29 of 31 Old 01-13-2014, 05:12 PM
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Also the tube won't look as bulky as the square box because it only ever presents it's diameter as what you see, whereas the square will look bigger from any angle other than straight-on.
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This is true, but building a tall box with a small footprint out of ply or mdf will be much heavier than a sonotube build.

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post #30 of 31 Old 01-14-2014, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Would a ported box be more for movies than music? I would still like a little punch from the sub if at all possible and was wondering if you can still achieve that with a ported box?
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