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post #31 of 55 Old 01-16-2014, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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If the cabinet is about 15" tall, what's the maximum width I should be shooting for? 30"? Or should we just go with 35"?
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post #32 of 55 Old 01-16-2014, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

Nice build! Are the details posted anywhere?

Thanks! I've been procrastinating about putting a write-up on DIYSG for a couple months, but am finally just now getting around to it (I got them finished up in the beginning of Dec.).

They're essentially a reconfigured Aura-NS6 Big-Mal, with the outer 2 woofers moved from beside to below. I'm very pleased with the sound, but I plan on adding a port (Audessey wants to cut them off at 110Hz, which I half-expected because they're not getting any boost from the floor or walls, but at the enclosure volume, I can add a port tuned from 60-80Hz boost up 80-110Hz pretty easily) sometime in the future, and perhaps custom tuning the capacitors that control the cutoff to the bottom pair to better match my baffle step frequency; the design called for a 150uF cap, I used 15 parallel 10uF Madisound surplus yellows, so I can change the value fairly easily. Bwaslo designed the crossover and stated with the 150uF cap, the bottom woofers cut in around 500-600Hz, but my baffle step freq is like 325Hz so if I were to adjust the cap, I could maybe match that better. But both those projects are LOW priority because I'm SO happy with how they sound now.

Erich, MY max channel size would be about 42"W x 22"H x 18"D, with my 50" TV. The width number will grow with a bigger TV.
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post #33 of 55 Old 01-16-2014, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

If the cabinet is about 15" tall, what's the maximum width I should be shooting for? 30"? Or should we just go with 35"?
From what I've seen in my own and lots of other setups, width is never the problem. We're all putting a center channel immediately above or below a display, and nobody's screen is only 35" wide. Until you get wider than the screen, you're not likely to run into any objects in the way. So it seems to me that until you hit 45" or so, most people could make it work.

My own limitations: 21"H x 70"W x 18"D
But of course, I'd like a bigger display. And that'll make my height limitation tighter and push it closer to the ceiling. And that worries me. And that makes me think more and more that I need an AT screen. And then I won't need a "center" specific design anymore. So maybe I should just be ignored. 8-)

I'm not into "thumbs upping" or "liking". Don't take it personally. Just assume that I found your post helpful. Unless it wasn't.
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post #34 of 55 Old 01-17-2014, 04:31 PM
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what benefit are folks hoping to capture using a center channel?

center channel might actually be a step backwards when using horns.

unlike omni-directional speakers, controlled directivity give a large area where imaging is good, aka wide "sweet spot".

http://libinst.com/PublicArticles/Setup%20of%20WG%20Speakers.pdf

http://audioroundtable.com/PiSpeakers/messages/23369.html

anecdotally, it works.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1420941/phantom-center-with-constant-direcitivty-speakers/0_50

craigsub, observing the same with his horn speakers, would run a test where he would tell people the center speaker was on, then they could walk up and see that it had no speaker cable going to it. :-)

[edit] found the bit:




anyway, maybe the issue is better served with 'free education' than with center channel speakers. :-)

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post #35 of 55 Old 01-17-2014, 05:05 PM
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If you are talking about a traditional horizontal MTM design that the TV would sit on top of in a small/medium living room, 6" woofers is the largest I would go, for a total 7" tall center speakers. The lower the profile, the better. Lots of drivers spread wide would be preferable over larger woofs that make the center speaker tall. The WIFE Approval Factor figures prominently in my opinion on this. Specifically, she doesn't like the TV "up in the air." I have a very nice MTM center from PE featuring Usher 7" woofs making my center 8" tall, and my wife has already asked me to find someplace else to put it because it is "too tall."

I don't know about how good horns are for centers, but in general I am in agreement with LTD in that the center does NOT have to match the LR, because the center has a very specific job, CLEAR SPEECH, front and center. No charts and graphs, this is just my opinion, and trying to be be practical, in my living room. That formula would likely not be the best for everybody, especially with larger listening rooms, I am guessing.




HDTV 47", Seos 10 Pures with 10" woofs, 12" SEOS. Center channel has 7" woofs.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #36 of 55 Old 01-17-2014, 07:13 PM
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As far as I know, the main benefits of using a horn or waveguide is the fact that they are more focused and control the sound waves in a way that cause less interaction with the room, allowing more of the sound to be sent over a wider range, right? (Not sure if that is the best way of explaining why horns/waveguides are superior), but, with the center channel, most of us sit directly in front of it, so would the benefits of controlled dispersion be less of a benefit since no matter what design we go with, we are always going to be sitting straight ahead of the center? I would think that building more of a HiFi type speaker for the center might be best, assuming you don't get all anal with regards to timbre matching, because drivers like the RAAL and other high end ribbons and some high end domes will probably sound best for vocals compared to a horn or waveguide loaded with a compression driver.
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post #37 of 55 Old 01-17-2014, 08:13 PM
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quote name="Martycool007" url="/t/1511753/whats-your-maximum-center-channel-size/0_50#post_24228528"]As far as I know, the main benefits of using a horn or waveguide is the fact that they are more focused and control the sound waves in a way that cause less interaction with the room, allowing more of the sound to be sent over a wider range, right? (Not sure if that is the best way of explaining why horns/waveguides are superior), but, with the center channel, most of us sit directly in front of it, so would the benefits of controlled dispersion be less of a benefit since no matter what design we go with, we are always going to be sitting straight ahead of the center?

Now, now, let's not assume. tongue.gif The pic of my living room (directly upstream) with the angle taken from the RIGHT, is my main listening position! It's where the recliner is, and I think due to the weird shape of my living room walls (nothing is square) you actually get a really good sound from the side, maybe even better than from the front where you catch nothing but direct speaker radiation, which can be a bit fatiguing. A couch is directly in front of the center console, and due to my wife's insistence that I put the speakers inside a made-for-TV cabinet, I found the best LISTENING position is in FRONT of the couch, sitting on the floor. rolleyes.gif

I would think that building more of a HiFi type speaker for the center might be best, assuming you don't get all anal with regards to timbre matching, because drivers like the RAAL and other high end ribbons and some high end domes will probably sound best for vocals compared to a horn or waveguide loaded with a compression driver.[/quote

I think you are right, the vocals come out very pleasant and the spoken voice is super clear and easy to listen to, even at VERY low levels. I also think the majority here would agree that "timbre matching" is highly desirable and the best reason for matching LCR. I just gently disagree, due to the very pleasant blend of sound I get with my mis-matched LCR, so other's listening experience may vary. cool.gif

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #38 of 55 Old 01-18-2014, 05:37 AM
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;-)

eyeballs at 1/3 of screen height, horns level with the ears, phantom center, ftw.


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post #39 of 55 Old 01-18-2014, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

What's the largest center channel you could get away with using? As in how wide and how tall.

Do you think the center channel components need to be at least as big as the left and right speakers?

May I suggest something entirely different.

Since most use subwoofers and bass management and many dont have a dedicated room where size is unrestricted and dont have AT screens, a smaller wall hanging closed box that has a natural roll off at 80Hz might be of benefit for a lot of people.

I thinking something like the procella P6 or P8.

P6 with 6,5" woofer. I suggest Seas er18rnx as the woofer as it models superbly in that context.



p8 with 8" woofer



I know this is not what you asked but a speaker like these would IMO be of great benefit for many trying to incorporate a surround system in a domestic non dedicated room.
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post #40 of 55 Old 01-18-2014, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Those are already done. wink.gif They're the Fusion-6's. I'm just waiting on flat packs.
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post #41 of 55 Old 01-18-2014, 06:54 AM
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Oh! I didn't know that smile.gif

I will look for them at your site.
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post #42 of 55 Old 01-18-2014, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Those are already done. wink.gif They're the Fusion-6's. I'm just waiting on flat packs.

I think those might be your new best sellers! Have you kept track of which speakers you've sold the most of? Have the Tempests actually sold more than the others, or is the amount of positive reviews just because of the sweet, sweet sound they produce?
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post #43 of 55 Old 01-18-2014, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Most people forget to put up reviews, which is kind of a bummer for the designers and the site itself. I think because the Tempest model is bigger than what most people have used in the past, they're overwhelmed by what it can actually do. Or they send me an email saying that everything arrived okay....then I sometimes remind them to put up a review after building them. But it's pretty rare that people remember to do it. I was going to go back through past orders and just ask people how they liked the way things turned out, and to post something on the site. But that would take a lot of time.
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post #44 of 55 Old 01-18-2014, 08:11 AM
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I've had a lot of requests for the tux10-99 documents. That's 12x40 (or even 36" wide if sealed or rear ported). Seems a lot of people should be able to fit that. If not, I'd agree that phantom center, or some kind of EOS 6 design might work. The EOS 6 only gets down around 2khz with the DNA-150 though. Not sure how that would go over.

If I really only had 8" or what ever to work with I'd do this:

SB29 neo dome tweeter. 3" mid. 4x7" Dayton reference paper cone woofers. These are new woofers, so who knows what they're like, but I think they be a safe bet. You'd get 8" tall, about 34" wide, just over 90db/w/m, nice low 80hz sealed F3, and a gorgeous look. Most people who don't have the space need it to look good because its in a living room or some place.

For a budget 6" version. Same tweeter, 4x5" woofers in a 2.5 way XO.

You need a small and robust tweeter to do centers right. The SB29 does it IME.
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post #45 of 55 Old 01-18-2014, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

If you are talking about a traditional horizontal MTM design that the TV would sit on top of in a small/medium living room, 6" woofers is the largest I would go, for a total 7" tall center speakers. The lower the profile, the better. Lots of drivers spread wide would be preferable over larger woofs that make the center speaker tall. The WIFE Approval Factor figures prominently in my opinion on this. Specifically, she doesn't like the TV "up in the air." I have a very nice MTM center from PE featuring Usher 7" woofs making my center 8" tall, and my wife has already asked me to find someplace else to put it because it is "too tall."

Thanks for posting the pictures of your setup. To be honest, calling that configuration "traditional" seems a little odd to me. Until seeing your photo I don't think I've ever seen a display perched directly on top of a center speaker before, and there are MANY display/speaker combinations for which it would be impossible.
If you don't mind explaining, I'm curious how you arrived at that configuration. Pulling the center speaker out in front of the display would allow the display to be dropped to the point just before the speaker begins obstructing view of the screen. If you'd like the display still lower, you could place the center speaker directly above it. Either solution would lower the display, get the sound closer to the center of the image, and be a much more common setup. It seems you're limiting yourself unnecessarily by requiring that the height between the bottom of the display base and the bottom of the screen be between your center speaker and the image.

I'm not into "thumbs upping" or "liking". Don't take it personally. Just assume that I found your post helpful. Unless it wasn't.
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post #46 of 55 Old 01-18-2014, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Most people forget to put up reviews, which is kind of a bummer for the designers and the site itself. I think because the Tempest model is bigger than what most people have used in the past, they're overwhelmed by what it can actually do. Or they send me an email saying that everything arrived okay....then I sometimes remind them to put up a review after building them. But it's pretty rare that people remember to do it. I was going to go back through past orders and just ask people how they liked the way things turned out, and to post something on the site. But that would take a lot of time.

I am loving my alchemy center so far Erich . After a few more days I will post a detailed review on your site smile.gif
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post #47 of 55 Old 01-18-2014, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

As far as I know, the main benefits of using a horn or waveguide is the fact that they are more focused and control the sound waves in a way that cause less interaction with the room, allowing more of the sound to be sent over a wider range, right? (Not sure if that is the best way of explaining why horns/waveguides are superior), but, with the center channel, most of us sit directly in front of it, so would the benefits of controlled dispersion be less of a benefit since no matter what design we go with, we are always going to be sitting straight ahead of the center? I would think that building more of a HiFi type speaker for the center might be best, assuming you don't get all anal with regards to timbre matching, because drivers like the RAAL and other high end ribbons and some high end domes will probably sound best for vocals compared to a horn or waveguide loaded with a compression driver.

Marty, another thing to consider is that even with a controlled directivity speaker what you hear is a combination of direct and reflected sound. The waveguide magic not only results in balanced sound for listeners off to the side, but also balanced sound being shot off to the walls before being reflected back at you.

Controlled or Constant Directivity speakers are not IMHO really about reducing reflected sound and thus room influence (although most do this to some extent), they are about making the off axis sound (and thus reflections) track the direct sound, smoothly falling off without the jarring discontinuities that plague the off axis response of domes and cones on flat baffles.
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post #48 of 55 Old 01-18-2014, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Most people forget to put up reviews, which is kind of a bummer for the designers and the site itself. I think because the Tempest model is bigger than what most people have used in the past, they're overwhelmed by what it can actually do. Or they send me an email saying that everything arrived okay....then I sometimes remind them to put up a review after building them. But it's pretty rare that people remember to do it. I was going to go back through past orders and just ask people how they liked the way things turned out, and to post something on the site. But that would take a lot of time.



Is it a matter of going through every order, extracting the email address, and then sending the person a message about it? I'd be willing to do the work.
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post #49 of 55 Old 01-20-2014, 08:36 AM
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I prefer having a discrete center to a phantom... While the SEOS give a huge sweet spot (I have my L&R toed in quite a bit, based on Bwaslo's writeup on DIYSG), if a soundtrack has a center channel audio track, I like it coming out the center channel. It anchors it the sound to the center regardless of where you're at in the room, something a phantom can't do, the intensity changes if you're off center (ie, if you're closer to the left, the left speaker is perceived louder). Now, honestly, I like to keep all surround processing to a minimum anyhow, when a soundtrack is stereo, I typically won't use any Dolby modes, because when you're sitting in my sweet spot you can't really tell if the center is active or not, so on older video I guess I kinda sorta DO use a phantom center (and a lot of Wii and Wii U games are stereo only too), but if there is a discrete center audio track, I greatly prefer a discrete speaker playing it, rather than relying on my AVR to distribute the signal to the L&R... It just sounds better, IMO.

Like I said, now that I have a center than is equal to my L&R, there's no going back... My old center was junk, so it intensified timbre differences from L-C-R, I HATED it; nothing sucks worse than a panning shot sounding good until it goes through the center. If I couldn't use a center that was exactly the same as my L&R, I can say WITHOUT QUESTION in that case I WOULD use a phantom.

Same feelings apply for surrounds though, I've always had surrounds that didn't have great extension, but when I built the new surrounds to go with my SEOS fronts (I used Bwaslo's Aura NS6+Mini-Elliptical crossover, ported to 40Hz, they sound great, especially considering they less than $25 worth of drivers in them, those little ME tweeters of Erich's are a good little buy) I wanted to see what having a speaker with good bass extension did for the audio experience... I'm VERY glad I did; the surrounds having good bass extension (I crossed them at 60Hz, Audessey wanted to go with 40Hz) makes for a much MUCH more immersive experience, and lower frequency effects absolutely in the surrounds and center audio tracks... I have absolutely NO bass localization problems any more (even with my subs in a corner); I really like having a solidly capable speaker in every position, the results are everything I hoped for. While you can use lesser quality speakers in those 3 locations and it's a common recommendation, it's DEFINITELY not an optimum setup; there are noticeable benefits to having equally capable speakers across the board.




Just my 2 cents,
Jason
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post #50 of 55 Old 01-20-2014, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

;-)

eyeballs at 1/3 of screen height, horns level with the ears, phantom center, ftw.


LOL! Very clean design, I love it! biggrin.gif

Remember, the cabinet is my wife's idea. She picked it out, so it must be good. When we first got married 28 years ago, I had one of the early sets of 5'x3' Magnapan MG-1 speakers. But because they were 5' tall and placement was critical, she made me put the speakers in the corners and then she put big plants in front of them! I knew then, either the speakers or the wife had to go.

I did suggest to my wife about mounting the TV on the wall, so we are still thinking about that. But c'mon LDT, asking that I give up my beloved center channel for a phantom center? Did my wife put you up to that?

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #51 of 55 Old 01-20-2014, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

Thanks for posting the pictures of your setup. To be honest, calling that configuration "traditional" seems a little odd to me. Until seeing your photo I don't think I've ever seen a display perched directly on top of a center speaker before, and there are MANY display/speaker combinations for which it would be impossible.
If you don't mind explaining, I'm curious how you arrived at that configuration. Pulling the center speaker out in front of the display would allow the display to be dropped to the point just before the speaker begins obstructing view of the screen. If you'd like the display still lower, you could place the center speaker directly above it. Either solution would lower the display, get the sound closer to the center of the image, and be a much more common setup. It seems you're limiting yourself unnecessarily by requiring that the height between the bottom of the display base and the bottom of the screen be between your center speaker and the image.

The wife.
+++

By "traditional" I meant placing the center channel horizontal, with the TV directly above it, not necessarily on top of it.
+++

The sequence of building that audio/video platform was, several years ago my wife was wandering through some random furniture store and bought the center console because she liked it, and I agree, it is a nice looking piece of furniture, compact and well built. We put the old tube TV on top of it, then all those cutouts on the side got plants and pictures put in them.

Shortly after I bought the 47" HDTV, and it sat pretty flat on top of the console, the fact the TV is on a swivel base is a big plus to me. For audio it had rear firing dual 2" speakers which sounded like crap. I wanted to upgrade the sound, so that's when I started to piece together my from-the-ground-up 5.1 setup.

The first thing I bought in February 2013 was an Onkyo TX-NR 717 AVR, a nice neat and clean design which should be able to handle the modest 100wpc power needs for any speakers in my living room. I now have only two components, the Onk, and a low profile Sony Blu-ray player.

I found the AVS forum, and after finding the DIY forum, abandoned my search for used Klipsch speakers and went DIY with the SEOS Fusion 10 Pures which fit perfectly into the L/R holes of my wife's beloved console. I knew it wasn't ideal for sound, but that was the compromise I had to make to get better sound.

I then found a Dayton Audio Usher center used in the AVS Classified Forum, as I wanted a horizontal MTM center. It was larger than I wanted height wise, but wow, the sound for TV and movies is fantastic, so I put it on the console, and stuck the TV on top of it. I fully agree it puts the TV a little tall, but I figured we'd get used to it. So far, we haven't.
+++

Fast forward: The wife has decided she doesn't like the look of the center speaker, and now wants it moved. I suggested building a shelf above the TV for the center speaker, and moving the TV back onto the console. My alternative was to build the bookshelf, and wall mount the TV. The key component is that console that I have to place speaker components around. Part of the problem of the console is that with all these heavy MDF speakers, the console is now sagging in the middle. She is very unhappy with that (read, very unhappy with me).

BTW, if you've seen the pic of my console, my components are on a cheap wire frame shelf, which I was using mainly because it was easier to swap wires and such out in the open. I am ready (OK, the wife is ready) to see it go.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #52 of 55 Old 01-20-2014, 05:15 PM
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I've been running phantom center for a few years. Doubtful I'll ever go back. Nobody else in the house cares and my seat is in the sweet spot so no issue there.

I've actually dialed back quite a bit and am only running 4 channels right now. It suites me perfectly.
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post #53 of 55 Old 01-20-2014, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been working on a few ideas, some big, others fairly small.

One of them is a SEOS-10 and an 8" woofer in a ported enclosure, but still kept at 15" tall. Of course I could put 2 woofers side by side and also use the SEOS-10. That might look a little odd, but it does keep the height at 15". My guess is that if you have to keep the center channel that small, maybe your left and right speakers aren't huge, and there really is no need to use dual 8" woofers on the center channel.
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post #54 of 55 Old 01-20-2014, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I've been working on a few ideas, some big, others fairly small.

One of them is a SEOS-10 and an 8" woofer in a ported enclosure, but still kept at 15" tall. Of course I could put 2 woofers side by side and also use the SEOS-10. That might look a little odd, but it does keep the height at 15". My guess is that if you have to keep the center channel that small, maybe your left and right speakers aren't huge, and there really is no need to use dual 8" woofers on the center channel.

Erich, have you given any thought to perhaps building anything, center channel wise, with the Seos-15 or Seos-12 and the DNA-360? Would that ever be a possibility for those of us who value performance over all else, no WAF, and plenty of room? LoL! Seriously!
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post #55 of 55 Old 01-20-2014, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Erich, have you given any thought to perhaps building anything, center channel wise, with the Seos-15 or Seos-12 and the DNA-360? Would that ever be a possibility for those of us who value performance over all else, no WAF, and plenty of room? LoL! Seriously!

Yes, they are coming.
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