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post #1 of 24 Old 01-21-2014, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello all, after trying to figure out how much a new set Klipsch surrounds and center channel would be I have decided that I might try and build my own. I looked at Parts Express and diysoundgroup and feel a little lost. what I am trying to build is a dual 6.5" center channel, a single or dual 6.5" bookshelf and matching dual 4" or 5" surrounds like the klipsch RS-52II. I have lots of woodworking experience with building furniture and automotive subwoofer enclosures and feel comfortable enough that I can build these speakers but finding the parts is what is becoming a problem. Any suggestions on vendors that sell the kits, or that are easy enough to work with that I can call them and they can put a package together? Any help is appreciated. I plan on doing this as soon as I get the parts going.

Yamaha RX-V773
Behringer iNuke nu6000dsp
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post #2 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 01:17 AM
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don't feel bad, a lot of folks feel a little confused by it all.

if you will be using subwoofers and are good at building enclosures, this little kit is a good one:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-series-kits/fusion8-kit.html

five identical speakers would be ideal for a small surround system.

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post #3 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 06:41 AM
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You actually showed up at quite a unique time. There is another woodworker here to who not to long ago was in your same shoes. He dove straight in and is a pretty happy camper right now. Hopefully he (chalugadp) reaches out to you or you could reach out to him. Cheers.

Note: The kits @ DIYSG are pretty amazing. Just realize that the sound quality you are getting is a fraction of the price you would pay in a store. As a woodworker, you might even get the exterior to look as good. So don't let the $100+ tag for each speaker put you off. You are getting your monies worth because you would pay the same price from PE (if not more), not have a pre-done baffle, and not get the support of his forum. smile.gif

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post #4 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you both for the replies. I was talking about this to the wife over the last few days and she kind of convinced me to go with the store bought brands. But after looking at this site I might have to talk to her again. I wont be doing anything until income tax time and I was talking back and forth with the guys over at the Klipsch thread here and got some really good feedback from them as to which speakers I would do from klipsch. I have a pretty big room to fill with a lot of problems that make it much less than ideal for HT. One question on these set ups, I like the single eight for the bookshelfs and the dual eight for my center. But for the rears I do not have enough room to hang a single eight, it would be nice but not doable. 17" long is a big speaker. Bigger than the store brand ones. I did see that they have a tower with 4, 4" mids and 1 horn. You think if I were to call these guys and talk to them about what I would need to make a dipole setup like the klipsch RS-52II they could come up with a kit? I emailed them earlier in the week and have not heard back from them.

At these prices I might really consider this. The sound is what I am concerned about. Name brands spends a lot of money on R&D getting things just right, I am just a hobby woodworker and don't know too much about setting up crossovers or speaker design.

Yamaha RX-V773
Behringer iNuke nu6000dsp
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post #5 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 11:18 AM
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If your main priority is sound, then you must go DIY if your on a budget. AS mentioned above the DIYSOUNDGROUP kits will outperform the klipsch models you mentioned. A year ago i dropped 3k on commercial speakers and subs. THe system was good but then I stumbled onto the DIY threads here. I have now built a sub, and three speakers with this one being my last



For half the price I now have speakers that far outperform the commercial ones. If I had 10k then I might just go buy some JTR speakers. Dude , convince the wife !cool.gif
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post #6 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by cessna1466u View Post

Name brands spends a lot of money on R&D getting things just right
Not as much as you might think. Certainly not as much as they claim to. One industry secret is that most manufacturers don't even have R&D departments; they farm out their design work to independent designers, like me. That's if they do any design work at all. You'd be shocked to find out how many do their R&D the old fashioned way: they copy other speakers.
Where 'state of the art' is concerned, manufacturers have no corner on the knowledge of physics. If anything they lag well behind the DIY segment. DIYers have always been at the cutting edge of experimentation, because a guy in his workshop doesn't have to worry about boards of directors. market share, cost control, profits/losses and all those other realities of the business world. And while larger manufacturers have some advantages to the cost of their parts due to their buying power, that's not reflected in the price you pay versus a DIY alternative, because the number one expense in a commercial speaker is marketing and distribution.

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post #7 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

If your main priority is sound, then you must go DIY if your on a budget. AS mentioned above the DIYSOUNDGROUP kits will outperform the klipsch models you mentioned. A year ago i dropped 3k on commercial speakers and subs. THe system was good but then I stumbled onto the DIY threads here. I have now built a sub, and three speakers with this one being my last



For half the price I now have speakers that far outperform the commercial ones. If I had 10k then I might just go buy some JTR speakers. Dude , convince the wife !cool.gif
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

If your main priority is sound, then you must go DIY if your on a budget. AS mentioned above the DIYSOUNDGROUP kits will outperform the klipsch models you mentioned. A year ago i dropped 3k on commercial speakers and subs. THe system was good but then I stumbled onto the DIY threads here. I have now built a sub, and three speakers with this one being my last



For half the price I now have speakers that far outperform the commercial ones. If I had 10k then I might just go buy some JTR speakers. Dude , convince the wife !cool.gif


WOW that is beautiful. I love the woodgrain. Did you use a hardwood to make the box or is it a veneer? Is that picture taken in a woodshop classroom? I am impressed. Very nicely done.

Yamaha RX-V773
Behringer iNuke nu6000dsp
(2) 18" Marty Cubes
Fusion 8 MTM


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post #8 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I need to look at the specs later but what would you think about using 3 of these across the fronts? (L,R,C)

Yamaha RX-V773
Behringer iNuke nu6000dsp
(2) 18" Marty Cubes
Fusion 8 MTM


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post #9 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 01:44 PM
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WOW that is beautiful. I love the woodgrain. Did you use a hardwood to make the box or is it a veneer? Is that picture taken in a woodshop classroom? I am impressed. Very nicely done.

Used plywood and then covered with veneer. From your description of your background you could easily do this. Yes its in my woodshop... I teach woodwork at Middle school.
thanks:cool:
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post #10 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 01:48 PM
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I need to look at the specs later but what would you think about using 3 of these across the fronts? (L,R,C)

Three alchemys would be great for your L,C,R. THe only area that the alchemy mtm isn't strong is in the 60-100 hz midbass area. If you have a good sub then its not a huge concern. I will go with the tempest model for my fronts becuase I want that extra kick from my fronts and I just like the look of the tempests cool.gif
Trust me with these speakers you will be very happy and save some cash. An AVR receiver has the power to drive these speakers to insanely loud and clean levels.
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post #11 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Used plywood and then covered with veneer. From your description of your background you could easily do this. Yes its in my woodshop... I teach woodwork at Middle school.
thanks:cool:

I am officially jealous of you. Being a woodshop teacher is a dream job for me. Last year my teen did woodshop. It was the last year the school here in WA offered it. From what I understand the shops like woodshop and automotive are going away little by little here in WA.

So you are going with the Alchemy for the center and the Tempest for your fronts?

I have dual Klipsch RW-12D subs so I can set it to do 100hz down and cover the shortcomings of the Alchemy.

Are you going with the Tempest because you don't want to incorporate a sub? Will the Alchemy and Tempest be timber matched?

Yamaha RX-V773
Behringer iNuke nu6000dsp
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post #12 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Not as much as you might think. Certainly not as much as they claim to. One industry secret is that most manufacturers don't even have R&D departments; they farm out their design work to independent designers, like me. That's if they do any design work at all. You'd be shocked to find out how many do their R&D the old fashioned way: they copy other speakers.
Where 'state of the art' is concerned, manufacturers have no corner on the knowledge of physics. If anything they lag well behind the DIY segment. DIYers have always been at the cutting edge of experimentation, because a guy in his workshop doesn't have to worry about boards of directors. market share, cost control, profits/losses and all those other realities of the business world. And while larger manufacturers have some advantages to the cost of their parts due to their buying power, that's not reflected in the price you pay versus a DIY alternative, because the number one expense in a commercial speaker is marketing and distribution.

Didn't know that Bill. I would of thought a company like Klipsch would have top notch research teams that did all the work before a product was out. Thanks for the info.

Yamaha RX-V773
Behringer iNuke nu6000dsp
(2) 18" Marty Cubes
Fusion 8 MTM


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post #13 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 02:42 PM
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I am officially jealous of you. Being a woodshop teacher is a dream job for me. Last year my teen did woodshop. It was the last year the school here in WA offered it. From what I understand the shops like woodshop and automotive are going away little by little here in WA.

So you are going with the Alchemy for the center and the Tempest for your fronts?

I have dual Klipsch RW-12D subs so I can set it to do 100hz down and cover the shortcomings of the Alchemy.

Are you going with the Tempest because you don't want to incorporate a sub? Will the Alchemy and Tempest be timber matched?

I have a beefy sub but some of the midbass is between 90-150 hz that I like. I am sure that the alchemy would be fine for me for 90% of the time. Had my eye on the tempest for awhile and don't want to wonder what if....

Alchemy and tempest are very similar and I am not one who has to have identical l,c,r speakers. Both are Jeff Bagby designs.

Teaching Woodshop is fun at middle school cuz kids still like school. Teaching high school woodwork is a pain since many of the kids don't want to be their.

Here's a link to my school website with project pics

http://teachers.sd43.bc.ca/dpurych/default.aspx
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post #14 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 07:25 PM
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Didn't know that Bill. I would of thought a company like Klipsch would have top notch research teams that did all the work before a product was out. Thanks for the info.
Klipsch probably does all of their own design work, though one never knows. IMO they lost their way after Paul Klipsch retired. He was one of the great designers of all time, and he was essentially a DIY guy.

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post #15 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't know when Paul retired but I can see a lot of the DIYer in some of the older models of Klipsch speakers. From what I can see shopping around and looking for Klipsch speakers I see that up to a while back they mostly looked like DIY speakers. The CF towers, the Cornwalls and Belle all look like something that can be done as DIY project. I am sure a lot of design went into them and I bet they are awesome speakers.


I sent another email out to Erich today but have not heard back. So I am considering the 3 Fusion 8's across the front. The dual 8" ones but I am still lost for the surrounds. Even the single 8" one is pretty big. Any thoughts on what to use for the surrounds?

Yamaha RX-V773
Behringer iNuke nu6000dsp
(2) 18" Marty Cubes
Fusion 8 MTM


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post #16 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 08:39 PM
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I don't know when Paul retired but I can see a lot of the DIYer in some of the older models of Klipsch speakers. From what I can see shopping around and looking for Klipsch speakers I see that up to a while back they mostly looked like DIY speakers.
The Klipschorn was a DIY. The speaker came first, the company came later. The entire heritage line was made of plywood and the edges were left exposed, revealing the plies. PK wasn't much for cosmetic touches, all he cared about was how they sounded.

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post #17 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 09:19 PM
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I don't know when Paul retired but I can see a lot of the DIYer in some of the older models of Klipsch speakers. From what I can see shopping around and looking for Klipsch speakers I see that up to a while back they mostly looked like DIY speakers. The CF towers, the Cornwalls and Belle all look like something that can be done as DIY project. I am sure a lot of design went into them and I bet they are awesome speakers.


I sent another email out to Erich today but have not heard back. So I am considering the 3 Fusion 8's across the front. The dual 8" ones but I am still lost for the surrounds. Even the single 8" one is pretty big. Any thoughts on what to use for the surrounds?

Erich runs the site in his spare time so be patient . They are coming out very soon with a six inch model that will be small. My suggestion is to get the three fronts and by the time you finish that build the rears will probably be available cool.gif
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post #18 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Erich runs the site in his spare time so be patient . They are coming out very soon with a six inch model that will be small. My suggestion is to get the three fronts and by the time you finish that build the rears will probably be available cool.gif


Good idea, although my sides are the ones that are hurting bad right now. I am using a set out of a HTIB set that I think has 2" speakers in it. I cannot wait to upgrade them. So as far him running the site part time do you know what kind of turn around there is when an item is ordered. Any idea if the 6" ones are going to be twins to the 8" ones but smaller? I know its dumb but I would really like for them to match. Even though I have not given up the idea of going with Klipsch completely I am really considering this. Every time I get the idea for a wood project I start to get excited and really look forward to it. But the sides have me concerned.

I was considering doing something like this. The drawing is rough and of course I need to figure out measurements to get the right volume and fitting of the components. I would also work on making it more aesthetically pleasing than this. It reminds me of the announcement speakers at schools, but you get the idea. Do you think the port will work with this placement. One on each side.


Yamaha RX-V773
Behringer iNuke nu6000dsp
(2) 18" Marty Cubes
Fusion 8 MTM


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post #19 of 24 Old 01-23-2014, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Erich runs the site in his spare time so be patient . They are coming out very soon with a six inch model that will be small. My suggestion is to get the three fronts and by the time you finish that build the rears will probably be available cool.gif


Good idea, although my sides are the ones that are hurting bad right now. I am using a set out of a HTIB set that I think has 2" speakers in it. I cannot wait to upgrade them. So as far him running the site part time do you know what kind of turn around there is when an item is ordered. Any idea if the 6" ones are going to be twins to the 8" ones but smaller? I know its dumb but I would really like for them to match. Even though I have not given up the idea of going with Klipsch completely I am really considering this. Every time I get the idea for a wood project I start to get excited and really look forward to it. But the sides have me concerned.

I was considering doing something like this. The drawing is rough and of course I need to figure out measurements to get the right volume and fitting of the components. I would also work on making it more aesthetically pleasing than this. It reminds me of the announcement speakers at schools, but you get the idea. Do you think the port will work with this placement. One on each side.


It takes a couple of weeks from ordering until receiving the parts. For surrounds their are coaxials on the site that would do what you want. I don't think you could ever tell that the surrounds wouldn't match the fronts for movie watching .
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/coaxial-speaker-kits/v8-volt-kit.html
You can make these sealed which would be smaller.
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post #20 of 24 Old 01-24-2014, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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You know I got so excited about the possibility of saving money and building my own speaker cabinets that I forgot to ask one important question. Will my Yamaha Receiver be able to push this set up nicely. I know too much power is bad but I also know that underpowering a speaker is just as bad. I have a Yamaha RX-V773 which is rated at about 95w per channel. I think it goes higher at 6ohm which is what these are saying they are. (Fusion-8 Alchemy MTM) This is what the specs for the receiver say. Can someone explain it in simple terms so that I can understand it.


Rated Output Power (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.09 % THD, 2 ch driven): 95 W/Ch

Rated Output Power (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.9 % THD, 2 ch driven): 110 W/Ch

Dynamic Power/Ch (Front L/R, 8/6/4/2 ohms): 140/180/210/250 W

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post #21 of 24 Old 01-24-2014, 10:39 PM
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Your Yamaha would power the fusion mtm no problem . Its 98.5 sensativity which means a 50 watt amp would make your ears bleed . I'm running my parasound amp with 220 watts cuz I already had it before I went DIY . These are pro audio components.
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post #22 of 24 Old 01-24-2014, 10:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I see, kind of. thank you for replying. It had me worried. I mentioned it to the wife over dinner and the first thing she asked is "Are we going to have to get a new receiver?" I hadn't even though of that. I have a few more questions and maybe you can help me since I am trying to write a new thread with this question and I can't find the words because you would think that someone who wants to build his own enclosures and built custom subwoofer enclosures back in the mid 90's for automotive spl competitions would know this. When I see a number like this what am I seeing? What does it mean in usuable terms?

BTW I found a local guy that is an Eminence distributor and he is actually in town, he doesn't have the Beta-8A has a different version that he says is more popular and wants to set me up with a different tweeter from Eminence. All costs together are about $20 less than the Fusion 8 but I don't think the mid is as good as the Beta. Plus it doesn't come with the baffles.

So what do these numbers mean?

98.5dB - 2.83V/1m

65hz - 20khz

I am assuming that the above number means this set up has its crossovers configured to only send frequencies from 65hz to 20khz. The crossover will in turn send out the higher frequencies to the tweeter and lower ones to the mid bass driver. I don't think this number tells us exactly which frequency goes where between the mid and the tweeter. (Or does the crossover send the entire spectrum of frequencies to both and then the speaker only puts out what it can?)
I just saw after I typed all this the specs for the fusion 8 says "Crossover Point 2500hz, is that the point that the crossover send to the tweeter so anything below that is send to the mid?

The first number the dB is the one that really has me puzzled. I know you just mentioned it and must be important.


Sorry for all the questions, and yes I plan on doing a lot more reading and learning before I make my cabinets. I like to know everything about what I am working on.

So if these 2 sets of specs where in front of you which would you choose?


Frequency Response: 57Hz-24KHz ± 3dB
SENSITIVITY: 98dB @ 2.83V / 1m
POWER HANDLING: 150W RMS / 600W Peak
NOMINAL IMPEDANCE: 8 ohms compatible
HIGH FREQUENCY CROSSOVER: 1500Hz



Sensitivity 98.5dB - 2.83V/1m
Nominal Impedance 6 Ohm
Frequency Response 65hz - 20khz
Crossover Point 2500hz
Recommended Power 10 - 300 watts


And why would you choose one over the other. The first is a Klipsch Dual 6" center channel and the second is of course the fusion. The specs are pretty close except that the Klipsch seems to go lower. Is that correct?

Yamaha RX-V773
Behringer iNuke nu6000dsp
(2) 18" Marty Cubes
Fusion 8 MTM


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post #23 of 24 Old 01-25-2014, 12:00 AM
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Sensativity tells you how much power is needed to drive the speaker . A speaker with 98 db sensativity might need say 10 watts to create 100 db spl level. Many commercial speakers have a sensativity around 87dbs. That 87 dbs speaker will need say 150 watts to reach 100 dbs spl level. In essence the higher the sensativity , the easier or less power needed.
Power rating is confusing at first. There rms power (steady and continuous ) and peak power ( for those dynamic moments ... a gunshot sound). Speakers are generally blown when a distorted signal is sent. This happens a lot more when you use less power , say 100 watts at almost full blast then with 500 watts at half volume .

The guidelines given by the diysoundgroup are good. Many people have used receivers to drive these speakers with no difference compared to. Amp. 200-300 watts per channel amps are more needed to drive less sensative speakers of say 83-88 dbs .

You can't recommend between two speakers with just stats. Some stats are not accurate . Klipsch is known to inflate their numbers. A big part of the sound quality of these speakers is the compression driver , waveguide , and crossover . All need to work together . The fusion does , I guarantee it. smile.gif

Don't worry about asking questions . We all were where you are at some point. I was six months ago biggrin.gif
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post #24 of 24 Old 01-25-2014, 12:07 AM
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Frequency response is how low the speaker can play before dropping off. Generally if it says 65-15k it will play a little lower due to room gain . Except the tempest , zephyr , and sentinel , all the other seos speakers need a sub for music. All the above speakers will need a sub for movies. Very few ( really expensive ) speakers can play down to 20 hz well. Sub cover 15-100 hz and towers and bookshelves cover normally 60-20k. The tempest could crossover at 60 and be just fine . The fusion with a smaller 8" driver will want to crossover at 80hz.
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