Starting to have second thoughts on Class D amps - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 148 Old 01-23-2014, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Read this short review at another forum today:

''Well, I decided to go out and buy a single IPR2-7500 to test head to head against the MQ-600.

So, I went out and bought the Peavey, hooked it up and.... DOA! Back to the store to get another one....After wasting 2 hours driving around town, the comparison started.1) Both amps were hooked up to the same 20 amp outlet (but only one was turned on at a time). Nothing else was plugged in to the outlet2) An RCA to XLR cable from my receiver was hooked up to an emotiva 2 way XLR Splitter, One XLR cable was run to each amp (the inputs were switched between amps to double check the results)3) One sub was placed in the middle of the room, hooked up to one amp via speakon.

The speakon was manually unplugged from the back of each amp when switching between them. So maybe a 30 second pause between tests.4) Each amp was run in stereo mode, with only the A channel gain turned on. 5) The speakers on the receiver were turned off, the only sound was coming from the single sub6) The same section of a track was played with each amp multiple times. The gain was turned up on each amp until the clip light came on, and then turned down a notch so each amp was just below clipping7) A SPL meter was used to record the levels with each amp8 ) The sound quality was compared (very subjective)9) The amps were also hooked up to a 20 amp power distribution block (http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B003...?ie=UTF8&psc=1) with a display showing current drawAnd the results!1)

The MQ-600 was much punchier versus the the IPR2-7500. the 7500 seemed to blur the bass notes together2) The SPL was very close between the 2 amps with the MQ-600 having marginally higher SPL output 3) The MQ-600 has a nice quiet fan, the IPR2-7500 would need to be in another room4) The Peavey was substantially more efficient in terms of current draw (~25%)Admittedly I didn't compare the THD between the amps so if the clip lights were coming on incorrectly, it would obviously have skewed the results. However, in real world usage, I would just use the clip lights to determine whether there was a problem so that was good enough for me for this test.Overall, the MQ-600 seems to be superior in every way except power consumption! Which is amazing for an amp costing $500 in comparison to an amp costing $800. I have no idea what the MQ-600 actually puts out for power but the IPR2-7500 was not at all impressive.

I was entirely shocked by this outcome! In fact, it was so unexpected that I had bought that amp from a music store with a store credit versus refund policy thinking it wouldn't matter... I'm now left with a store credit for $700 at a store I'll never shop at, but even that wasn't enough to convince me to keep the IPR2-7500 over the MQ-600. ''

Now this mirrors my thoughts as well. When using the Inuke 6000, I was very impressed with the output of my speakers. However I did not like their sq. I even went as far as putting them on the market to sell which thankfully did not work out. When I switched to using the Crown XLI series I noticed a night and day improvement in the midrange and high frequencies with my speakers.

So I figured a high powered class D would be excellent for sub duty only. After using a IPR2-7500 with my SI 24 for the last two weeks and now switching back to my Crown XLI 3500, I can say SQ is better with the Crown amp in my opinion. Also there is not much output difference between the too. Even though on paper the 7500 should be almost double the power of my Crown amp.

A good amp should be good for both speakers and subs in my opinion.

With both the IPR2-7500 and the Inuke 6000 the low notes seem to be a bit slurred together with less definition. Neither have audiophile quality in the highs and mids.

And this Crown series is just entry level power supply limited old tech. Nothing special by any stretch of the imagination. Now I am contemplating on going back to my roots and purchasing an old school 100lb class A/B amp.

Im interested to hear everyone's thoughts on such factors as damping factor and slew rate as well as others in the makings of a good amp.
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post #2 of 148 Old 01-23-2014, 10:03 PM
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I'm on the opposite side ofthis fence. I don't believe one amp is punchier , or warmer , etc. I have a parasound hca 2205a I got used six months ago. Got it for 600 to power my five speakers . I'm happy with it but in hooking up my inuke3000 to the same speakers I didn't notice any difference . It wasn't a perfectly controlled test but that was what I found. Swapping out fans take 10 minutes . I just hope my inuke3000 lasts a long time
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post #3 of 148 Old 01-23-2014, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I respect your opinion Chaluga. I used to be of the firm opinion that all amps in the same power class sound the same years ago. But after owning over 20 amps my feelings on the subject have changed.
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post #4 of 148 Old 01-23-2014, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

I respect your opinion Chaluga. I used to be of the firm opinion that all amps in the same power class sound the same years ago. But after owning over 20 amps my feelings on the subject have changed.

Hey, we hear what we hear. I don't have perfectly matched speakers but I can't hear a difference . For 250 bucks I would be happy to get 5-7 years from my inuke.
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post #5 of 148 Old 01-23-2014, 10:48 PM - Thread Starter
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It is a good deal. I still love the value offered by the Inuke series and will give it one more shot with the Inuke 12000.
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post #6 of 148 Old 01-23-2014, 10:55 PM
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What speakers are u using ? cool.gif
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post #7 of 148 Old 01-23-2014, 10:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Two Unity 215 speakers(mains)
Five Unity 15 speakers(surrounds/center)
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post #8 of 148 Old 01-23-2014, 11:06 PM
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Two Unity 215 speakers(mains)
Five Unity 15 speakers(surrounds)

Those look like beasts ! Nice !!!
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post #9 of 148 Old 01-23-2014, 11:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Those look like beasts ! Nice !!!

Thanks. I love them now. But they are picky with what amp you pair them with in my opinion. I was not impressed with them the first time I heard them. And I was undewhelmed when pairing them with various amps until I tried the Crown XLI series which seems to be a excellent match for them.
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post #10 of 148 Old 01-23-2014, 11:13 PM
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I concur on the weakness of Class D. It just doesn't make the bass happen for me either. I'm running U215s as well wink.gif

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post #11 of 148 Old 01-23-2014, 11:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I concur on the weakness of Class D. It just doesn't make the bass happen for me either. I'm running U215s as well wink.gif

Ok. At least I know I am not the only one who is ''seeming'' to hear this. Class D is great and I still like it alot. But the bass just doesnt seem as prominent with my speakers. The Inuke 6000 and IPR2-7500 thump my sub hard but there seems like a subtle loss of clarity and definition.
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post #12 of 148 Old 01-23-2014, 11:19 PM
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Crown makes a good amp and there still affordable compared to many other amps.
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post #13 of 148 Old 01-23-2014, 11:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Crown makes a good amp and there still affordable compared to many other amps.

Yeah I was anti Crown before I tried the XLI series. I still think their XTI and XLS series are listed at bloated prices for the power offered.
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post #14 of 148 Old 01-23-2014, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

Ok. At least I know I am not the only one who is ''seeming'' to hear this. Class D is great and I still like it alot. But the bass just doesnt seem as prominent with my speakers. The Inuke 6000 and IPR2-7500 thump my sub hard but there seems like a subtle loss of clarity and definition.

I was discussing this with Billy Woodman of ATC and he said the same thing. ATC use mosfet amps, class A/B. They have auditioned a lot of Class D and all have failed to measure up. When I speak to pro audio guys and they want real bass they choose Lab Gruppen and Camco - both Class H (version of class A/B). So, it's not just the two of us biggrin.gif

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post #15 of 148 Old 01-23-2014, 11:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Antripodean View Post

I was discussing this with Billy Woodman of ATC and he said the same thing. ATC use mosfet amps, class A/B. They have auditioned a lot of Class D and all have failed to measure up. When I speak to pro audio guys and they want real bass they choose Lab Gruppen and Camco - both Class H (version of class A/B). So, it's not just the two of us biggrin.gif

Yes this was the same info I received from the pro guys at prosoundweb.com.
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post #16 of 148 Old 01-24-2014, 03:47 AM
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Have you, or anyone else for that matter, tried any of the Crown XLS202 or XLS402? I have a chance to pick some of them up for around $120 each, and would likely use them to power my LCR.

I am also now considering the XLI based on your recommendation, Swole. I have always been of the camp that all modern day amps sound the same if of the same power class and level matched. Perhaps this is the wrong way to look at things, I just wonder how these high wattage class D amps do for the LCR's compared to the old school class A/B amps that were all so common 10 years ago? I know that it had been said many times by many people that the class D amps lack in bass reproduction, and I am always of the opinion that where there is smoke, there is fire, so this may very well be the case.
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Interesting thread, thanks for posting your views smile.gif

I have no way to do a back-to-back test but I'm hopeful that the CV5000 I've bought will produce everything I want and more from quad SI18s!
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post #18 of 148 Old 01-24-2014, 06:13 AM
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So I come at this from a slightly different perspective, as a quasi reformed audiophile with very little experience with pro-sound amps other than my old Crown K2. I however have a great deal of experience listening and comparing audiophile type tube, class a/b and class d amps on full range main speakers. I have owned dozens of amps of all types and was a cofounder of a huge NYC audiophile club that has regular meetups and shootouts of equipment. Tube amps are not germane to this conversation, so I will give you some big picture take aways from class a/b vs class d in my humble experience. Maybe this will shed some light on your applications.

There are good and bad examples of both, I will just compare the general subjective (and some objective) take aways for the good examples of both classes. Class D amps typically have much higher dampening factor than class a/b, then leads them to have a much dryer and faster sound to them. Additionally, class d is less prone to the 60hz or 120hz bump due to power supply resonances from the mains power. Objectively this means they likely measure better, subjectively this can lead them to sound a little too clean/sterile. I personally like class D (such as Hypex, I really dislike ICE based amps) better than class a/b amps I've heard run full range, but it takes some getting used to and it takes a bit of balancing elsewhere (such as running a very cleanly implemented tube preamp).

Everybody has differences of opinion, but I wonder if class d in pro audio isn't more about economy than high performance. I am betting it is cheaper to make/use class d and maybe they just aren't as superbly implemented. I don't know the question to that.
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post #19 of 148 Old 01-24-2014, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

I respect your opinion Chaluga. I used to be of the firm opinion that all amps in the same power class sound the same years ago. But after owning over 20 amps my feelings on the subject have changed.

You are so lucky to have "Golden Ears!"

I can't tell the difference between my $20,000 Krell Evo 403 and Halo A-31 other than turning volume knob to arc welder mode on Krell.

If comparing amps and you're hearing a difference, then something's wrong with one of the amps. Not trying to be disrespectful, just I learned from mistakes placing money in amplification. When purchasing new equipment, we are all subject to "self fulfilling prophesy" when comparing new equipment. It's a bi-product of human nature........

With that said, does anyone want to buy a 170 lb pseudo futuristic Habachi microwave oven.........aka Krell? biggrin.gif
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post #20 of 148 Old 01-24-2014, 06:56 AM
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Everybody has differences of opinion, but I wonder if class d in pro audio isn't more about economy than high performance.
It's about size and weight. That's not a significant issue in the home, but it is if you've got a rack full of amps that you schlep about every night. As to sound quality, it's like every amp class, there are good and there are not so good. Each amp must be judged on its own merits. As is always the case when something new comes along there are those who won't accept it as being as good as what came before. Ten years from now when Class D is the old workhorse and something smaller and lighter has come along we'll see this same argument applied to the newer technology, with the Luddites opining the inherent superiority of Class D.
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post #21 of 148 Old 01-24-2014, 07:02 AM
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You are so lucky to have "Golden Ears!"

I can't tell the difference between my $20,000 Krell Evo 403 and Halo A-31 other than turning volume knob to arc welder mode on Krell.

If comparing amps and you're hearing a difference, then sometime's wrong with one of the amps. Not trying to be disrespectful, just I learned from mistakes placing money in amplification. When purchasing new equipment, we are all subject to "self fulfilling prophesy" when comparing new equipment. It's a bi-product of human nature........

Audio and it's enthusiasts often are guilty of the placebo upgrade effect with $1000 power cables and the like and drivers made from unobtainium.

However, there are also many factors that can cause an actual detectable difference and each person's detectability threshold is different. There may be other variables at play here as well.

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post #22 of 148 Old 01-24-2014, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

It's about size and weight. That's not a significant issue in the home, but it is if you've got a rack full of amps that you schlep about every night. As to sound quality, it's like every amp class, there are good and there are not so good. Each amp must be judged on its own merits. As is always the case when something new comes along there are those who won't accept it as being as good as what came before. Ten years from now when Class D is the old workhorse and something smaller and lighter has come along we'll see this same argument applied to the newer technology, with the Luddites opining the inherent superiority of Class D.

This is also one of my thoughts. I'm sure people tend to bring alot of nostalgia with old tech combined with fear of new tech. I remember the countless threads I read where guys were stating how much warmer and clearer old school Class A amps were vs. Class A/B amps.And how Class A was a simpler design resulting in the most pure signal transfer with the least amount of signal degradation.

I'm sure Class D will be the norm over the next 10 years due to it's efficiency and superior economy of scale. And then as you stated guys will talk about the old days with good ol'class D in comparison to the next tech available.
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post #23 of 148 Old 01-24-2014, 07:19 AM
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I have a XLS202. I use it on the subs, but plan to use it on my LR once I upgrade. I couldn't tell you if its good or not, but for $120 it seems like a great deal. I pain around $200, but mine was mint and included the box and manual etc.
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post #24 of 148 Old 01-24-2014, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post

...
I'm sure Class D will be the norm over the next 10 years due to it's efficiency and superior economy of scale. And then as you stated guys will talk about the old days with good ol'class D in comparison to the next tech available.
I would not expect that:
Crown created the first DCnnn series decades ago. And I know musicians and sound professionals that won't part with them.
A friend that does A level touring used 22 Crown ( AB ) amps for many years without failure.
Transistors didn't replace tube - though it was predicted.
The 1st Class D amps of the 60's were horrible, like other topographies they improved.
Amplifiers are not the inefficient weakest link in the sound chain.

As far as weigh: Amps are in gig rigs with casters - so more rolling than hoisting

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post #25 of 148 Old 01-24-2014, 07:37 AM
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i wonder if what some of you aree hearing is related to this post in our latest GTG thread

post 86 if this does not link right

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1512849/january-18th-loudspeaker-gtg-results-thread/0_100#post_24238588


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post #26 of 148 Old 01-24-2014, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by WVSyd View Post

I would not expect that:
Crown created the first DCnnn series decades ago. And I know musicians and sound professionals that won't part with them.
A friend that does A level touring used 22 Crown ( AB ) amps for many years without failure.
Transistors didn't replace tube - though it was predicted.
The 1st Class D amps of the 60's were horrible, like other topographies they improved.
Amplifiers are not the inefficient weakest link in the sound chain.

As far as weigh: Amps are in gig rigs with casters - so more rolling than hoisting

This is what Im hearing from the pro crowd at pro sound web.com. I believe Class D has come a mighty long way in it's development. I guess I'm just beginning to question ''if it's not quite there yet.''
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post #27 of 148 Old 01-24-2014, 08:07 AM
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Yes - It's true - the 1st Class D's I heard in the 60's were atrocious. And were in violation of FCC regulations.

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post #28 of 148 Old 01-24-2014, 08:15 AM
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What it comes down to is that no matter what class the amp is there are good and bad examples. You're using class d pro amps that are cheap and skewed toward the Extremely high power at the expense of sound quality end of the spectrum.

There are other class d amps that are designed to be high sound quality. I challenge you to fault the sound quality of a Class D Audio ( http://classdaudio.com/ ), or Hypex ( http://www.hypex.nl/ ) amp for example.
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post #29 of 148 Old 01-24-2014, 08:21 AM
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Not sure but judging from the pronoun use - I believe Steve is addressing Swolephile
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post #30 of 148 Old 01-24-2014, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

, with the Luddites opining the inherent superiority of Class D.

LOL! So, you're a history major as well? biggrin.gif

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