Fusion 15 Sentinel or Alpha 12 Zephyr or Fusion 12 Tempest - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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Old 04-12-2014, 04:07 PM
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Yes, if you look at pro woofers, you will see that most good manufacturers rate their X-max on the conservative side. For example, the B&C rates their 21" at 15mm, but has a peak to peak rating of 60mm before damage.

Eminence also underrates virtually all of it's woofers. During that big group buy, I went there to pick up the 220 MFW subwoofers that were left over when AV123 went out of business. They gave me the spec sheet. That woofer was rated at 12.5mm X-max because at the time they did not use the technology to build anything more than that (that was about 3-4 years ago). Yet AV123 rated it a lot higher. Most people agreed it could do a bit more than it was rated at. I believe Eminence and some of those other manufacturers use a different testing method for calculating Xmax.

Two years ago someone from another country wanted me to help him get some custom subwoofers from Eminence. They were going to have the woofers shipped to me and then I was going to ship them there, nothing more. There was a company I can't mention that had an 18" subwoofer and he was claiming over 20mm X-max built by Eminence. The guy wanted that exact woofer, but with a glossy finish on the cone, no other changes. The samples were shipped to me along with the specs with a rating of......11.5mm X-max. The guy called Eminence and they said it is the correct woofer and that if they make custom woofers for a company, that company can claim anything they want. Can the woofer safely do 20mm? No it couldn't.

I'm a big fan of Eminence and think it's a great company with great employees, and they're very honest about what they can and can't do. They're one of the nicest companies I've ever dealt with. If a speaker company buys a custom 'no name' woofer and they're own testing says it can do 50% more, they can claim it does. Heck, they can claim pretty much anything with or without testing (look at Pyle's stuff). But I also know that if Eminence could build a woofer that they could safely rate at 20mm.......they'd probably be selling them as their own house brand model don't you think? wink.gif


They're Beta-8 woofer is rated at 3mm Xmax with a limit of 7.4mm. So if you got a custom similar model, you could say it has a 6.5mm rating if you wanted to and still be safe. How do I know this? Well, you'll have to wait about 1.5 weeks. wink.gif
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Old 04-12-2014, 04:15 PM
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Awesome good to know, I really like the Eminence drivers too. Jeff pretty much uses them in all of his speakers, must be for a good reason right. smile.gif
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Old 04-12-2014, 04:19 PM
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Old 04-12-2014, 05:36 PM
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I to like Eminence. Reliable data, high performance, made in the USA, great pricing. I mean, what else can you ask for.
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Old 04-12-2014, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I tried offering resistor changes to tailor the top end and a total of 0 people asked about it. I gave up.

I wouldn't mind talking about it. If find myself turning up the higher frequencies on the Tempest about 3db @ 16khz. A little more top-end gives it a bit more crispness to it without sounding fatiguing.
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Old 04-12-2014, 05:53 PM
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Wish I could help you but the tempest isn't my speaker. Jeff might be able to.
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Old 04-12-2014, 08:35 PM
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I could ask Jeff about it and see if he can make a resistor option to leave the CD a little hotter. The goal was a smooth non fatiguing sound, but some do like things a bit more in your face. Usually when I listen to music, it's for an extended amount of time while working and I prefer it to be more laid back.
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Old 04-12-2014, 09:46 PM
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I'm sure it's simple. I'd do it, but I'd be stepping on his toes I think.

Treble knobs work too wink.gif
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Old 04-12-2014, 10:57 PM
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I doubt the crispness is from above 16khz. Do we have a response graph and distortion numbers from both to see what is really happening? I bet that little crispness is from more THD within the 2-8khz range. I am not saying a little more THD sounds bad or is bad but my SEOS 12 had below 1% THD through the vocal range and the other speakers had much more at 4khz and 7 kHz and that is what made them more exciting. I prefer the less crispness but mine were only fusion 10's and did not sound big enough and dynamic enough compared to my DR's. You give me the combination and I am there!
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Old 04-12-2014, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I doubt the crispness is from above 16khz. Do we have a response graph and distortion numbers from both to see what is really happening? I bet that little crispness is from more THD within the 2-8khz range. I am not saying a little more THD sounds bad or is bad but my SEOS 12 had below 1% THD through the vocal range and the other speakers had much more at 4khz and 7 kHz and that is what made them more exciting. I prefer the less crispness but mine were only fusion 10's and did not sound big enough and dynamic enough compared to my DR's. You give me the combination and I am there!

MK was this question meant for me?

I was actually meaning to ask you if you've heard the 228HT's? I know you owned some of the T8's but I don't recall reading if you've heard the never stuff from JTR.
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Old 04-13-2014, 04:45 AM
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MK was this question meant for me?

I was actually meaning to ask if you have heard the 228HT's? I know you owned some of the T8's but I don't recall reading if you've heard the never stuff from JTR.

Hey Jbrown15- did you have a chance to directly compare the Tempest to the JTR228's? I have limited experience with the 228's but I do have experience with some of the various Seos, and I like the Tempest and a few other models better than the Triple-8's and Triiple-12's. I even thought the CornScalas sounded like a step up from the Triple-8 and Triple-12

. I am a pretty big fan if the CornScala as well and in my opinion they best the T-8 & T-12 by a good bit.

I have heard the following CornScala driver combos: the. Selenium d220ri, B&C DE250, and Fatal Pro HF drivers with combinations of the B&C 850TN mid, the Selenium D405 mid, the Fatal Pro mid, the Atlas mid and more recently the Radian 950PB mid. Most of those were used with the CW1526 woofer which is an updated clone of the Klipsch k-33, although one setup that I was able to demo used a quad set of Eminence 10" drivers on the low end. (Sorry, can't remember model #).
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Old 04-13-2014, 07:00 AM
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I don't think its fair to evaluate the JTR triple speakers in light of the Noesis speakers. Clearly they are very different speakers using different ideologies and different technologies. On top of that, the subjective reviews I've seen on them are vastly different, in favor of the noesis. Both use very good (and fascinating for me) design concepts. And not to knock coaxials, but they do have their weaknesses. JTR may have had to let some of those weaknesses through in order to achieve some of the design goals.

All coming from someone who hasn't hear any JTRs. So what do I know.
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Old 04-13-2014, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I don't think its fair to evaluate the JTR triple speakers in light of the Noesis speakers. Clearly they are very different speakers using different ideologies and different technologies. On top of that, the subjective reviews I've seen on them are vastly different, in favor of the noesis. Both use very good (and fascinating for me) design concepts. And not to knock coaxials, but they do have their weaknesses. JTR may have had to let some of those weaknesses through in order to achieve some of the design goals.

All coming from someone who hasn't hear any JTRs. So what do I know.

Good call. The 4 pi is way better


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Old 04-13-2014, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Whenever comparing speakers their are so many factors that effect what you hear and what you like. Sounds like the two speakers are pretty similar. it will be interesting hearing seven different speakers at your GTG.
+1

I would also bet double down that every speaker being compared in this thread will give fantastic results properly setup and EQd in a treated room.

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Old 04-14-2014, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I don't think its fair to evaluate the JTR triple speakers in light of the Noesis speakers. Clearly they are very different speakers using different ideologies and different technologies. On top of that, the subjective reviews I've seen on them are vastly different, in favor of the noesis. Both use very good (and fascinating for me) design concepts. And not to knock coaxials, but they do have their weaknesses. JTR may have had to let some of those weaknesses through in order to achieve some of the design goals.

All coming from someone who hasn't hear any JTRs. So what do I know.

I agree with you wholeheartedly Tux! The JTR 212 is a very fine speaker and could best most of the typical Seos & CornScala designs. I wish that I could have spent more time with them.

So with that being said, yes, the JTR-212 is a world class speaker, better than most typical Seos and Crites inspired CornScala designs. I did not mean to imply that I did not like all JTR speakers, I just did not like the T12 or the T8. Their Noesis designs and subwoofers are some of the best period!

I plan to sit drive to the Memphis area soon to listen to a setup consisting of three JTR-212 across the front. It's the same guy that had the T12's that I heard a while back. According to him, the 212's best the T12 by quite a large margin when it comes to the top end & mid-range.
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I agree with you wholeheartedly Tux! The JTR 212 is a very fine speaker and could best most of the typical Seos & CornScala designs. I wish that I could have spent more time with them.

So with that being said, yes, the JTR-212 is a world class speaker, better than most typical Seos and Crites inspired CornScala designs. I did not mean to imply that I did not like all JTR speakers, I just did not like the T12 or the T8. Their Noesis designs and subwoofers are some of the best period!

I plan to sit drive to the Memphis area soon to listen to a setup consisting of three JTR-212 across the front. It's the same guy that had the T12's that I heard a while back. According to him, the 212's best the T12 by quite a large margin when it comes to the top end & mid-range.
Sorry to hijack this thread but I was all gung ho to get a seos 15 sentinel speaker until I found out about Cornscala.
I absolutely love this big ass design as this is what I want my LR mains to be...old school full range high sensitivity speakers.
I am more interested in the D-type 2 way with the faital pro driver but can you give any comparison to the Cornscala and a seos based speaker??
I have already talked with Bob Crites and he seems very eager to take my Canadian money!! Lol
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Old 04-14-2014, 08:51 AM
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Sorry to hijack this thread but I was all gung ho to get a seos 15 sentinel speaker until I found out about Cornscala.
I absolutely love this big ass design as this is what I want my LR mains to be...old school full range high sensitivity speakers.
I am more interested in the D-type 2 way with the faital pro driver but can you give any comparison to the Cornscala and a seos based speaker??
I have already talked with Bob Crites and he seems very eager to take my Canadian money!! Lol

I have owned both. Ill pm you.

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Old 04-14-2014, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post


I plan to sit drive to the Memphis area soon to listen to a setup consisting of three JTR-212 across the front. It's the same guy that had the T12's that I heard a while back. According to him, the 212's best the T12 by quite a large margin when it comes to the top end & mid-range.

Just as the 228HT's best the T8's with those same qualities.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:43 AM
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What inserts and T-Nuts did you use for the subwoofer & horn mounting? I'm getting the same speakers in the next few weeks and picking up the necessary hardware to build it. (Haven't built DIY speakers before).

Looking at getting:

https://www.parts-express.com/square-speaker-terminal-cup-4-gold-banana-binding-post--260-284

https://www.parts-express.com/6-x-3-4-deep-thread-pan-head-screws-black-100-pcs--081-435

https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-gasketing-tape-1-8-x-3-8-x-50-ft-roll--260-540

but would love some links to the t-nuts & inserts you used so I can get ones that would work out with this speaker.

Thanks!

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Old 05-12-2014, 03:12 PM
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Joe really respect you for helping him out. Was thinking the same thing. Yeah basically I did the same thingas far as shipping goes, got them shipped to Blaine, Washington then ran across the border. Erich H wasnt too happy shipping them as I think he said it was, "the most expensive place in the US to ship to". Good guy though even when I was offering to pay extra he shipped them no charge. Thanks again Erich.

I think it was about $150 CDN to get them across the border but guards can be funky. 2 packages about 50 lbs each. Not light.

Anyhow updates before I go back to work on the 27th



First coat of paint on after the sanding at the wood shope





Ive got the last coat of bed liner on now. Im pretty happy with the way they turned out. In a few spots ive missed some filler but honestly this is my second go around with any wood project so im happy enough. MAY mount the insulation and cross overs tomorrow before I fly out. That says MAY Jbrown15.....biggrin.gif

PS the paint that im using (4 coats now???) REEKS!!!
Just curious if most using the Tempest as L.C.R are using a AT Screen considering there height ??
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Old 05-12-2014, 03:37 PM
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Ju
Just curious if most using the Tempest as L.C.R are using a AT Screen considering there height ??
I'd hope so! mainly because the floor bounce would be kinda bad with the 12" so low to the floor under a normal TV config.
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Old 05-12-2014, 06:25 PM
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I'd hope so! mainly because the floor bounce would be kinda bad with the 12" so low to the floor under a normal TV config.

What do you mean? I'm sure most would consider building stands for their speakers, putting the compression driver at ear height.
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Old 05-12-2014, 07:24 PM
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What do you mean? I'm sure most would consider building stands for their speakers, putting the compression driver at ear height.
You won't get ear height with a non AT screen.
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Old 05-12-2014, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

What do you mean? I'm sure most would consider building stands for their speakers, putting the compression driver at ear height.
You won't get ear height with a non AT screen.
My initial question was concerning the Center Channel ? My PJ screen is at 22" height and Tempest is 26" high ? That's why i asked if most Tempest users had AT screens ??
Placing the Tempest under a non AT screen would raise the screen a little high for my taste .
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Old 05-12-2014, 09:51 PM
 
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You can shorten the boxes a tad, then make them deeper to correct the Vol.

I did this for my TV solution, not sure Howe much room you have above: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1530240/my-kind-of-therapy#post_24709107

It's about 3/4 down, a hanging frame then tempest "upside down" on that angled down of course.
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Old 05-13-2014, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by lemans24 View Post

Sorry to hijack this thread but I was all gung ho to get a seos 15 sentinel speaker until I found out about Cornscala.
I absolutely love this big ass design as this is what I want my LR mains to be...old school full range high sensitivity speakers.
I am more interested in the D-type 2 way with the faital pro driver but can you give any comparison to the Cornscala and a seos based speaker??
I have already talked with Bob Crites and he seems very eager to take my Canadian money!! Lol

I have little to no experience with the 2-way CornScala with the Faital Pro drivers, but, I have heard, and I do like the 3-way CornScalas, I believe style C from Bob Crites. It is a nice sounding speaker, and it does a lot of things right, BUT, the new Fusion-15, when it becomes available, is going to most certainly be a better speaker.
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Old 05-13-2014, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I have little to no experience with the 2-way CornScala with the Faital Pro drivers, but, I have heard, and I do like the 3-way CornScalas, I believe style C from Bob Crites. It is a nice sounding speaker, and it does a lot of things right, BUT, the new Fusion-15, when it becomes available, is going to most certainly be a better speaker.

Why do you think the 15 will be a better speaker? Are you involved with their designs or have you heard both? This is not to be mean or an attempt to anonymously criticize someone. Are you thinking bigger is better or more money is better? I'm open to reason and if you have a good one I could very well be persuaded.

Equipment: Denon AVR-4520, Fusion Tempest (LCR), Fusion Alchemy (4xSurrounds+Wides+Heights),15" Dayton Ultimax X 4, SMX 2.35:1 Screen
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Old 05-13-2014, 08:46 AM
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You won't get ear height with a non AT screen.

I dunno.
My television is 36" from the floor.
The Tempests are 26" tall.
That gives me 10 inches between the top of a Tempest and the bottom of my television.
I could put some stands below them and still fit them under my tv.
They may not be exactly at ear level, but they wouldn't be far from it.
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Old 05-13-2014, 08:57 AM
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wow, that's quite high ime, but if it works for you and is to your preference, go for it smile.gif Normally, I see the bottoms of TVs at around 30" from the floor.
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Old 05-13-2014, 09:27 AM
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i felt compelled to step in here, since the obvious differences between these speakers has not be adressed.

 

i have built a few econowaves, the cornscala C, and have played around with various 10-15" eminence and beyma woofers.
the midrange from the d405 compression driver is something else than a big paper cone..

 

the seos design are very good, they have a nice polar and freq. response. better than the cornscala in these measurements, but thats not everything! in a 2way like this there will always be a compromise between bass and midrange. (or midrange and tweeter like in the cornscala D)
the best speakers i have heared have always been 3 or 4-way for a reason. you wouldnt use a 12" woofer as a midrange in a 3way design would you? or a 4" fullrange driver as a tweeter for that matter.

i dont know of the fusion 15, if it has the AE m driver with a phase plug it will certainly be a step up, but you will not find a refined and crisp midrange in a typical big PA woofer! atleast not in my experience.

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