Coaxials: Another DIY Group Project. - Page 18 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #511 of 1308 Old 09-04-2014, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
I am curious how high you can port with a PR. Some deem to be lower than 40hz so I am curious.

PR's act a lot like ports. If you take a fixed port size/length and place it in a small box the tuning will be higher then if placed in a larger box. Also if you took two of those same ports and placed them in a box the tuning would be higher then if only one port was to be used in that box. Same goes for PR's.
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post #512 of 1308 Old 09-05-2014, 02:01 AM
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I assumed but never had to use one tuned higher than 30hz before. Was looking at tuning a cabinet around 75hz and it would be easier with a PR. Mainly because of the 1st port resonance and being large enough for turbulence to be in check.
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post #513 of 1308 Old 09-05-2014, 07:00 AM
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Yes, 80 Hz is higher than most would use, but 60 Hz is common for a satellite to be XO'd to sub at 80.

I clicked on a few of the links below and didn't see anything to change my opinion.

In any case, you could by a driver with a wimpy magnet for less than a lot of those PR's.


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post #514 of 1308 Old 09-05-2014, 07:54 AM
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Many moons ago, a friend of mine used drivers for PRs. The unusual part was that he wired a resistor across the passive VC to vary damping.
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post #515 of 1308 Old 09-05-2014, 08:30 AM
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Tuning with those PR's is actually between 37-60 Hz depending on the cabinet volume chosen, at 1.5cuft it's about 49 Hz with an Fb of roughly 65Hz.
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post #516 of 1308 Old 09-10-2014, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
PR's act a lot like ports. If you take a fixed port size/length and place it in a small box the tuning will be higher then if placed in a larger box. Also if you took two of those same ports and placed them in a box the tuning would be higher then if only one port was to be used in that box. Same goes for PR's.
Meaning dual PR's would yeild a higher tune?

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Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
Tuning with those PR's is actually between 37-60 Hz depending on the cabinet volume chosen, at 1.5cuft it's about 49 Hz with an Fb of roughly 65Hz.
Could this be done, using two of the PR's mentioned earlier by @erwinfrombelgium ? Design below is roughly 1.6ft^3.



I mean, flat to 49Hz is good for any surround in my book. Knocking something like this out for ~$200 per speaker would be outstanding!

All this PR talk is getting everyone riled up these past few weeks!
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post #517 of 1308 Old 09-10-2014, 01:35 AM
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If LTD doesnt beat me to it I will simulate a PR design when I get back in 30mins.
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post #518 of 1308 Old 09-10-2014, 07:43 AM
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-3db 65hz
-6db 49hz
-10db 40hz
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post #519 of 1308 Old 09-10-2014, 11:59 AM
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^^

Is this with a single passive radiator? The idea is to use 2 in a 1.5 to 1.6 cu feet net volume cabinet.

Unlike popalock's WMW, mine would be a MMW with the coaxial at the bottom. This puts the coaxial at ear level and the height of the speaker would be exactly the height of the diffusion elements: 90 cm (3 feet). There would be a 2.5 feet gap between the bottom and the floor. And the same 2.5 feet gap between top and soffit. Space between soffit and floor is 240 cm (2.5+3+2.5 = 8 feet). Center ceiling area height is 260 cm.
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Last edited by erwinfrombelgium; 09-10-2014 at 12:07 PM.
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post #520 of 1308 Old 09-10-2014, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Meaning dual PR's would yeild a higher tune?



Could this be done, using two of the PR's mentioned earlier by @erwinfrombelgium? Design below is roughly 1.6ft^3.



I mean, flat to 49Hz is good for any surround in my book. Knocking something like this out for ~$200 per speaker would be outstanding!

All this PR talk is getting everyone riled up these past few weeks!
Yes dual PR's raise the "box" tuning.


Those Dayton PR's work well with the 10" Eminence between 1 - 3 cu ft. but best between ~1.2 - 1.8 cu ft. While a larger enclosure gives you more output down low you also loose output potential in the upper bass as the tuning shifts lower with the increase in volume.


A box like that could work well. I have had the PR's here for a few months with the intent to build an MTM style box. The idea was actually brought up while Erich and I were discussing the original design last October, in fact it might have been Erich's idea in the first place!


I finally bought a sheet of MDF a few days ago to build the MTM (PCP?) design my box will be ~1.4-1.5 cu ft. 12"W x 34"H x 10"D.

I figured if Erich ever did carry the PR baffle it would be super easy for someone to choose where they wanted to focus the output. If they wanted to use the crossed at 80 Hz then the could build the box shallow to get the tuning up higher and put the most output in that range. If they wanted a flexible design to be used with crossovers between 60-80hz depending on what works best for them they build it a little deeper, and if they wanted a design that could be run without subs and still cover decent range then they build it deeper still. Depending on the baffle size the range of cabinet depth could be 7-15" for the various volumes.
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post #521 of 1308 Old 09-10-2014, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
The idea was actually brought up while Erich and I were discussing the original design last October, in fact it might have been Erich's idea in the first place!
Heck yeh!

To be fair, I come up with 40 different designs every couple days and most get shot down for being kind of crazy. But it's always nice when a few do pan out and get considered.

I had someone recently tell me that they thought all I did was decide what roundovers go on the front baffle and where to place the internal braces on the flat packs. That kinda hurt.
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post #522 of 1308 Old 09-10-2014, 07:52 PM
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Heck yeh!

To be fair, I come up with 40 different designs every couple days and most get shot down for being kind of crazy. But it's always nice when a few do pan out and get considered.

I had someone recently tell me that they thought all I did was decide what roundovers go on the front baffle and where to place the internal braces on the flat packs. That kinda hurt.
But they're exceptional roundovers.

Erich have you thought abought doing a ribbon horn or other tweeters?

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post #523 of 1308 Old 09-10-2014, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a SEOS waveguide for a Fountek ribbon and can get one for an expensive Raal tweeter. Not sure of demand though. Raal does make a small OEM ribbon which might work in a smaller waveguide, but haven't gotten that far yet.

I've also been working on waveguides for some nice dome tweeters.
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post #524 of 1308 Old 09-10-2014, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
^^

Is this with a single passive radiator? The idea is to use 2 in a 1.5 to 1.6 cu feet net volume cabinet.
Dual.
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post #525 of 1308 Old 09-11-2014, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
^^

Is this with a single passive radiator? The idea is to use 2 in a 1.5 to 1.6 cu feet net volume cabinet.

Unlike popalock's WMW, mine would be a MMW with the coaxial at the bottom. This puts the coaxial at ear level and the height of the speaker would be exactly the height of the diffusion elements: 90 cm (3 feet). There would be a 2.5 feet gap between the bottom and the floor. And the same 2.5 feet gap between top and soffit. Space between soffit and floor is 240 cm (2.5+3+2.5 = 8 feet). Center ceiling area height is 260 cm.
Gotcha. I was thinking about wall mounting them, hence the very thin design.

Perspective.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
Yes dual PR's raise the "box" tuning.

Those Dayton PR's work well with the 10" Eminence between 1 - 3 cu ft. but best between ~1.2 - 1.8 cu ft. While a larger enclosure gives you more output down low you also loose output potential in the upper bass as the tuning shifts lower with the increase in volume.


A box like that could work well. I have had the PR's here for a few months with the intent to build an MTM style box. The idea was actually brought up while Erich and I were discussing the original design last October, in fact it might have been Erich's idea in the first place!


I finally bought a sheet of MDF a few days ago to build the MTM (PCP?) design my box will be ~1.4-1.5 cu ft. 12"W x 34"H x 10"D.

I figured if Erich ever did carry the PR baffle it would be super easy for someone to choose where they wanted to focus the output. If they wanted to use the crossed at 80 Hz then the could build the box shallow to get the tuning up higher and put the most output in that range. If they wanted a flexible design to be used with crossovers between 60-80hz depending on what works best for them they build it a little deeper, and if they wanted a design that could be run without subs and still cover decent range then they build it deeper still. Depending on the baffle size the range of cabinet depth could be 7-15" for the various volumes.
Awesome sauce man. Personally I'd be fine with either coax, so I'll be following along closely to see what you come up with x-over wise.
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post #526 of 1308 Old 09-11-2014, 05:06 AM
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^popalock your missing the 4 Atmos speakers. So you will need 8 of them. You know you want to...
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post #527 of 1308 Old 09-11-2014, 11:31 AM
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^popalock your missing the 4 Atmos speakers. So you will need 8 of them. You know you want to...
+1

That's why my coaxials will be at ear level...

I prefer sealed for the ceiling speakers though. That way they don't take up to much height or intrude to much with the ceiling diffusion elements. If the ceiling height was 10 feet, I would have preferred ported or with passive radiators, identical to the "normal" surrounds.

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post #528 of 1308 Old 09-11-2014, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Gotcha. I was thinking about wall mounting them, hence the very thin design.

Perspective.

Is that the same design for the Center speaker?

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post #529 of 1308 Old 09-11-2014, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
Is that the same design for the Center speaker?
Yes sir. Just a quick sketch doodle, still trying to see how much leeway I can squeeze out of the wife before I finalize my plans.
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post #530 of 1308 Old 09-11-2014, 11:55 AM
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^popalock your missing the 4 Atmos speakers. So you will need 8 of them. You know you want to...
Ha, only if you build the other 4 for me...
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post #531 of 1308 Old 09-11-2014, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
+1

That's why my coaxials will be at ear level...

I prefer sealed for the ceiling speakers though. That way they don't take up to much height or intrude to much with the ceiling diffusion elements. If the ceiling height was 10 feet, I would have preferred ported or with passive radiators, identical to the "normal" surrounds.
I would not recommend passive radiators being mounted in a ceiling either.
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post #532 of 1308 Old 09-11-2014, 01:53 PM
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Heck yeh!

To be fair, I come up with 40 different designs every couple days and most get shot down for being kind of crazy. But it's always nice when a few do pan out and get considered.

I had someone recently tell me that they thought all I did was decide what roundovers go on the front baffle and where to place the internal braces on the flat packs. That kinda hurt.
I thought you were the packing peanuts guy.

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post #533 of 1308 Old 09-11-2014, 02:13 PM
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I would not recommend passive radiators being mounted in a ceiling either.
Something on-ceiling mounted like popalock's sketch, why not?

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post #534 of 1308 Old 09-11-2014, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
Something on-ceiling mounted like popalock's sketch, why not?
Mounting passive radiators in the horizontal position is a big no no. Drivers have a magnet to center them, passive radiators do not. This will cause the PRs to sag, severely limiting their travel and negatively affecting their tuning.
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post #535 of 1308 Old 09-11-2014, 02:25 PM
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Mounting passive radiators in the horizontal position is a big no no. Drivers have a magnet to center them, passive radiators do not. This will cause the PRs to sag, severely limiting their travel and negatively affecting their tuning.
Ah, I see, thanks.

Ported then!

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post #536 of 1308 Old 09-11-2014, 04:25 PM
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Actually for these it's not much of an issue, there is no mass added so there is not much to cause them to sag more the then weight of the cone itself. The magnet on a normal woofer does nothing to center the cone, it's not like it tells the amplifier to provide a negative DC voltage in order counteract the force of gravity on the cone when the driver is facing down. The spider and surround hold the cone centered on a regular woofer the same as they do on a passive radiator. The passive radiators (and most woofers) are actually stored and shipped in the same position (sitting upside down) as they would be mounted on a ceiling.
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post #537 of 1308 Old 09-12-2014, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Money Shot!

Aluminum phase plug, copper shorting ring, aluminum back plate......

When crossed over to a subwoofer able to withstand full power of a -bridged- Crown X1000 with no problems......














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post #538 of 1308 Old 09-12-2014, 04:39 PM
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Measurements? T/S?
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post #539 of 1308 Old 09-12-2014, 04:48 PM
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Money Shot!

Aluminum phase plug, copper shorting ring, aluminum back plate......

When crossed over to a subwoofer able to withstand full power of a -bridged- Crown X1000 with no problems......

Is this the 6" coaxial? I'm gathering it's high end since it can handle that kind of power?

That magnet is ginormous.

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post #540 of 1308 Old 09-12-2014, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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That's the 8" model.

There have been some changes done to it over the past few months and it will need to get tested again for the specs. But it's good. Alpha grade good. I'm very happy with how this has turned out.
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