8x 18" LMS 5400 Ultras Sealed to 27 Cube 15hz Ported Build - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 512 Old 02-05-2014, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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This is a continuation of the discussion in this thread. There was some further discussion here as well. My current low end setup, chronicled here, consists of 8x LMS Ultra 5400s in sealed enclosures with 4x FP14000 powering them, pictured below. Kind of absurd to upgrade, but that's what this project is about. I feel the sealed enclosures I built left a lot on the table under 40hz that I can pick up by going with a vented alignment. A full build gallery is available here.

The outer dimensions of the new enclosures measure 48" long, 46" high, and 30" deep. Ports will be oriented on the sides as I will be stacking these. These dimensions were chosen mainly to fit in the current space that I have, stacked two high.

I've got two of these built, and I consider it a great success. It output as modeled, though the tuning ended up around 14.7hz, with an effective port length of about 55". I'm going to pick up some more lumber once the roads here are dry. The output from these down low is just so much greater than the sealed boxes. It would take four of them to equal one of these at 15hz. The bass from the ported boxes also feels like it has more impact. You feel it a great deal more in your chest. To make up for the lack of ULF I decided to get some Crowson transducers for my couch, which also add a great deal of tactile feel. Since this setup is on a slab, the ULF from the subs basically does nothing aside from causing my walls to flex an doors to bounce around. I can listen at lower bass levels now with more feel while having more headroom in reserve. Watching previous demo scenes and listening to various bass heavy music so far have me convinced this was the right move.

Since completing all four of these, I am incredibly happy with the results. EQ'd the same the bass is far more visceral and I have a lot more headroom where I needed it.

Bracing was accomplished with strips of left over ply from the build. Handy since it was almost all cut to size already. The boxes are painted with Duratex. Holes filled with spackle.

Sketchup file: download
Cut list: download

Original setup. The new enclosures will be stacked in the same place as the old.
z0w2Ezd.jpg?1

Here is the project half-way through. Can't wait to finish. I can't describe how imposing these are, they still look kind of like toys in the picture, but those are 8' ceilings.
tpvaI7gl.jpg

Modeled at 6200w with 13.5hz 3rd order butterworth highpass. I ended up using a 14hz 4th order filter. Very similar results.

Compared to the sealed subs with 8000w input and 11hz 3rd order filter (I have massive room gain in this area, filter prevents over excursion below 7hz). Both of these signal levels push the subs to almost identical excursion levels.

uzHHFx0.png

Excursion:
wTXz0BN.png

Port Velocity:
bU47pI7.png


Enclosure:

It weighs about 400lbs with the drivers in it. This was built from maple ply, which was excessive, but the selection was poor when I went out to get the lumber for this. The second was built out of some not-so-good 6 ply soft wood sort of like arauco, but worse. It warped really bad and made my life miserable. Thankfully I have a lot of clamps. I found some nice Baltic Birch for $40/sheet that I'll be using for the last two.

XwN5YG3.png?1

zhnXSIN.jpg?1

dxlkaNCl.jpg

wwje7pMl.jpg

M3Eg5ER.jpg?1

bUPBUVDl.jpg


Results, as modeled. Huge gains. It's hard to move these things. This was back-to-back with a sealed enclosure in the same location. No changes otherwise. This measurement was taken with a faulty mic. Apparently I shocked it one too many times or something and it was rolling off way sooner than expected. The gains are the same, but the slope is all wrong.

o0RZ8bp.png

And in room results. There's a null at 80hz where the mic is placed. What's crazy is I still have headroom.

qwwHhUq.png

And full system results with XT32
9S0i6yE.png

3 Sweeps to determine compression... cool.gif
100db to 126db. Interesting how the walls react
Unstacked
n2Zqazc.png

Stacked
0pX50Ip.png



THD @ reference level
jHA9m2m.png

THD @ OMGWTF level. I think I might be reaching the ceiling of the mic's limits. I'm afraid to test louder for fear of damaging something in my house.

nOkSimG.png
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post #2 of 512 Old 02-05-2014, 06:54 PM
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Cool Not! cool.gif

Nice to find everything in one place.
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post #3 of 512 Old 02-05-2014, 07:08 PM
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Not
I know I keep repeating myself but I am really looking forward to the finished results

Thanks for sharing/documenting this whole process
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post #4 of 512 Old 02-05-2014, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Not
I know I keep repeating myself but I am really looking forward to the finished results

Thanks for sharing/documenting this whole process

Come to the dark side wink.gif
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post #5 of 512 Old 02-05-2014, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Come to the dark side wink.gif

Oh I am!
I guarantee it !!!
I can't before the summer. I don't have a garage.

I'll meet you on the dark side then
Reserve me a spot .
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post #6 of 512 Old 02-05-2014, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Oh I am!
I guarantee it !!!
I can't before the summer. I don't have a garage.

I'll meet you on the dark side then
Reserve me a spot .

Excellent!

The transducers are awesome as well if you need something to hold you over until it's warm smile.gif
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post #7 of 512 Old 02-05-2014, 09:20 PM
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post #8 of 512 Old 02-05-2014, 10:10 PM
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BOOM BOOM!!

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post #9 of 512 Old 02-05-2014, 10:47 PM
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great plan. great work. great post.

how did you get sub 2 on top of sub 1?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #10 of 512 Old 02-05-2014, 11:23 PM - Thread Starter
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great plan. great work. great post.

how did you get sub 2 on top of sub 1?

Lifted it wink.gif I had the help of 3 friends.

The fun part was inserting some foam rubber draw liners between the subs after they were up there. Duratex on Duratex makes an awful noise. I had to lift the top sub solo for that.
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post #11 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 12:02 AM
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I have to ask... since you have what I presume is enough swept volume and power to listen to any audible frequency at more than sane levels, did you ever consider playing with a linkwitz transform on your sealed system? You could have emulate your modeled ported response curve easily enough, which should give the same "feel" changes you describe. Drawbacks being more input power required (you have plenty of this in reserve), and lower max possible spl (does that really matter in this case?).

I guess I don't understand unless it is for max spl bragging rights. The benefit of massive sealed displacement is that your final output response can be user adjusted to taste electrically while remaining louder than tolerable. You had that, but sacrificed it for an option that locked in one response and with significant size penalty. Do you really intend to listen now to 20Hz at 160dB instead of 150dB?

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post #12 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 12:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

I have to ask... since you have what I presume is enough swept volume and power to listen to any audible frequency at more than sane levels, did you ever consider playing with a linkwitz transform on your sealed system? You could have emulate your modeled ported response curve easily enough, which should give the same "feel" changes you describe. Drawbacks being more input power required (you have plenty of this in reserve), and lower max possible spl (does that really matter in this case?).

I guess I don't understand unless it is for max spl bragging rights. The benefit of massive sealed displacement is that your final output response can be user adjusted to taste electrically while remaining louder than tolerable. You had that, but sacrificed it for an option that locked in one response and with significant size penalty. Do you really intend to listen now to 20Hz at 160dB instead of 150dB?

You might be pulling some of these numbers from your nether regions, or possibly just exaggerating to try to make a point. I'm not sure which. My sealed setup was EQ'd flat, with the -3db point at 7hz. I was bottoming out the subs during movie and music playback somewhere in the 15-20hz region. My ported setup is EQ'd flat down to around 14hz, but I have the headroom now to not worry about bottoming out my subs. I don't have any room gain in that area and there's 10,000 cubic feet of open air space to deal with. I wouldn't be busting my ass building these just for bragging rights, there are plenty of other ways to get louder output.

Also, level matched and EQ'd the same, the ported subs have a different feel to them. Can't quite explain it, but it's there, and I like it.
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post #13 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 12:50 AM
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You might be pulling some of these numbers from your nether regions, or possibly just exaggerating to try to make a point. I'm not sure which.
Exaggerated, not to make a point but as a tip of the hat. I don't recall exactly what your max levels were, but I know it was loud. Really loud.
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My sealed setup was EQ'd flat, with the -3db point at 7hz. I was bottoming out the subs during movie and music playback somewhere in the 15-20hz region. My ported setup is EQ'd flat down to around 14hz, but I have the headroom now to not worry about bottoming out my subs.
Man, hard to believe you were bottoming 15-20Hz in real world usage, but I'll take your word for it. Not sure if that is due to the large space or insane listening habits (both), but I suppose that is a legitimate reason to go chasing more headroom in that range. I would have never guessed that... figured it was just a response curve preference kind of thing.

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post #14 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

You might be pulling some of these numbers from your nether regions, or possibly just exaggerating to try to make a point. I'm not sure which.
Exaggerated, not to make a point but as a tip of the hat. I don't recall exactly what your max levels were, but I know it was loud. Really loud.
Quote:
My sealed setup was EQ'd flat, with the -3db point at 7hz. I was bottoming out the subs during movie and music playback somewhere in the 15-20hz region. My ported setup is EQ'd flat down to around 14hz, but I have the headroom now to not worry about bottoming out my subs.
Man, hard to believe you were bottoming 15-20Hz in real world usage, but I'll take your word for it. Not sure if that is due to the large space or insane listening habits (both), but I suppose that is a legitimate reason to go chasing more headroom in that range. I would have never guessed that... figured it was just a response curve preference kind of thing.

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post #15 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 01:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Exaggerated, not to make a point but as a tip of the hat. I don't recall exactly what your max levels were, but I know it was loud. Really loud.

Man, hard to believe you were bottoming 15-20Hz in real world usage, but I'll take your word for it. Not sure if that is due to the large space or insane listening habits (both), but I suppose that is a legitimate reason to go chasing more headroom in that range. I would have never guessed that... figured it was just a response curve preference kind of thing.

Ah, somewhere around 130db at 20hz depending on position in the room was what I was peaking at iirc. Less under there as excursion starts skyrocketing. They'd bottom out during WOTW and HTTYD pretty bad without pushing it to insane levels. If I pushed it in some movies with not as deep bass, they'd still bottom. Pushing it listening to electronic music with sweeps down to a bit under 20hz also bottomed out before being able to reach the levels I wanted. Giving up content under 14hz to have the extra output is definitely worth it to me. The transducers I added deal w/ that pretty well anyway, since I'm still feeling it. In fact, more so than previously. Granted, I won't feel the room pressurize with a 10hz sine wave like I did before, but that was only something I'd ever notice when testing with signal generators anyway, or starting the Xbox.

It's really worrying to hear the LMS drivers bottom out, especially after seeing pictures of what happens. Things like that can keep you awake at night wink.gif

I basically had the choice to double up on drivers for 3db, or to redo the enclosures for 10-12db where it mattered. I went with the bigger enclosures. At least I'm not losing any more floor space =]

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post #16 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 05:05 AM
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Wow, that's very interesting to hear that you're bottoming them around the 15-20HZ region.
My 21's bottom at around 20HZ region too...one of my 21's makes a knocking noise (pretty bad!) when it's close to bottoming. that's when I know it's at their limit.
The other 3 don't make that noise.
OTOH, my SI18's can take a hell of a beating and have problems bottoming them out.

Can't wait to start on my end too.
I'm just gonna have to beg someone to tell me what size a cab I need for my 21's... redface.gif
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post #17 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 05:38 AM
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How are you guys bottoming out these massive 18" & 21" subs at just 20hz? Something isn't right with your enclosures or system setup because those drivers should be able to do 15hz to 20hz with ease!
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post #18 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 05:58 AM
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How are you guys bottoming out these massive 18" & 21" subs at just 20hz? Something isn't right with your enclosures or system setup because those drivers should be able to do 15hz to 20hz with ease!

Very easy...by applying MAJOR power
Sorry...don't know what else to tell you.

My 21's are getting roughly 2100Watts per sub
My 18's are getting roughly 1250Watts per sub

I believe that's a lot of juice and I know it's way more than they are rated for.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I DO NOT blast sinewaves loud at them.
This is during movies ONLY that they bottom out! Never on music!

Examples:
Monument scene in OLF
Rocket launch (Ender's Game...this one really bottoms HARD!) at approx 1:05:00 mark.
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post #19 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 06:11 AM
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post #20 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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How are you guys bottoming out these massive 18" & 21" subs at just 20hz? Something isn't right with your enclosures or system setup because those drivers should be able to do 15hz to 20hz with ease!

The EQ necessary to get a sealed enclosure to play flat causes massive excursion increases, not much else to it.
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post #21 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

How are you guys bottoming out these massive 18" & 21" subs at just 20hz? Something isn't right with your enclosures or system setup because those drivers should be able to do 15hz to 20hz with ease!

No. Not at all, actually. The 15-25hz is the region where excursion is always at it's greatest, even with little drive power (subject to alignment). Almost every system has non-trivial rolloff below 10hz so most of us have more protection down there than in the 15-25hz region.


Lol! I got this thread mixed up with the other one. I guess since you're back now ya might as well. wink.gif

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #22 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
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How are you guys bottoming out these massive 18" & 21" subs at just 20hz? Something isn't right with your enclosures or system setup because those drivers should be able to do 15hz to 20hz with ease!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

my SI18's can take a hell of a beating and have problems bottoming them out.

The Ultra is only down 30% motorforce at 66mm (of 80mm), where as the SI-18 probably has no motor force at all at 66mm (of a "claimed" 86mm). That has a lot to do with it,
the LMS is more linear that nearly ANY other subwoofer at the extremes.
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post #23 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 05:44 PM
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The Ultra is only down 30% motorforce at 66mm (of 80mm), where as the SI-18 probably has no motor force at all at 66mm (of a "claimed" 86mm). That has a lot to do with it,
the LMS is more linear that nearly ANY other subwoofer at the extremes.

Yup. It still has that HUGE motor at nearly full force at the very end of the mechanical throw. It will be easier to bottom the LMS-Ultra driver compared to most other 'conventional' drivers.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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Ah the memories. redface.gif
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post #25 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Ah the memories. redface.gif

Sorry to open old wounds wink.gif
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post #26 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 08:33 PM
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So is the thread at d-b dead?

JSS
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post #27 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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So is the thread at d-b dead?

JSS

Nobody is posting, but I've been updating it as well. I haven't had anything new to add for a bit, so it's just been conversational replies mostly. I should be able to get some lumber tomorrow morning or Saturday. I'd like to have two more built within 2 weeks. Then I can get into posting some interesting stuff like high level distortion tests and sweeps.

Between the new setup and the Crowson transducers, I can't even describe how awesome it is right now. Totally brought an already over the top system to the next level.
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post #28 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 08:44 PM
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So is the thread at d-b dead?

JSS

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Nobody is posting, but I've been updating it as well. I haven't had anything new to add for a bit, so it's just been conversational replies mostly. I should be able to get some lumber tomorrow morning or Saturday. I'd like to have two more built within 2 weeks. Then I can get into posting some interesting stuff like high level distortion tests and sweeps.

Between the new setup and the Crowson transducers, I can't even describe how awesome it is right now. Totally brought an already over the top system to the next level.

I've been watching. Just don't have anything useful to add usually. Still waiting for the other pair. tongue.gif

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post #29 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 08:48 PM
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Crowson makes a great product. Folgott may have figured out how to do a semi-Crowson setup using existing subs....

Good to hear you will still update the d-b thread.

JSS
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post #30 of 512 Old 02-06-2014, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Crowson makes a great product. Folgott may have figured out how to do a semi-Crowson setup using existing subs....

Good to hear you will still update the d-b thread.

JSS

Yeah, I saw with the springs. I'll take the actual crowson setup smile.gif Running some dynamic eq on the inuke with it now too. I put a 2'x6' piece of ply under the couch and it makes a big difference. Less energy lost.
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