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post #91 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 03:08 PM
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"I realize you're around 5.25cuft, but that's because you're sticking with certain panel dimensions."

i might not be completely understanding what you are asking, as that is what i was trying to get at. that minimum size isn't related to handy panel dimensions. it just so happens to work out that a 2x2x2 external gives 5.25 roughly internal and that is about the minimum that i would go with.

if i had a cnc machine and full license to do anything, i still wouldn't want to go below about 5.25 cu ft, 20hz tuning, for drivers from the Dayton 460ho to the uxl, and for power up to about 3000 watts or so. at that size, performance is already beginning to be compromised (or there wouldn't be any reason to build a full size marty, bigger is better).

if you are simply asking what dimensions i would choose if not limited to handy panel dimensions, that is an aesthetic/personal preference thing and I'm not sure. different folks seem to have different preferences form low-profile to tall-boy.

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post #92 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 03:11 PM
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hey splot, i suspect you are right. 17 m/s at 20hz is the rough rule of thumb that i was using.

collo identifies chuffing at MUCH lower values though: http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/flare-testing.htm

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post #93 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

hey splot, i suspect you are right. 17 m/s at 20hz is the rough rule of thumb that i was using.

collo identifies chuffing at MUCH lower values though: http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/flare-testing.htm

Yep I think I remember that one. I guess the audibility depends a lot on the testing method. If you run pure sine waves as I believe Collo did there is no masking and any artifacts will be much more obvious. On real word program the problem is much less severe. Just try and run sines through your main speakers and port artifacts is easy to hear. Still the problem seem to vanish when music or movie content is playing.
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post #94 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 03:26 PM
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As a noob to looking at all these charts you guys post smile.gif, compare the marty cube to my sealed cube for the UXL 18" that I am building, I understand that ported is more efficient. Besides that is there much difference besides the "tighter" sound of sealed?

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post #95 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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A couple of things I need to update thread with

1) Can someone other then ltd (the dude's busy) do a graph of Martycube with 1100 watts in dayton ho vs 2000 watts in uxl driver. I have graph for regular/mini already.

2) Ltd02 , Before the end of Monday can you try to have all the measurements with ports ready ? Pm me if you want to. I am going to do a sketchup of this bad boy right now with approx size that I can change later if necessary. Monday here where I live is a holiday (family day) and my school is closed. I will be there tuesday bright and squirrelly looking to cut out this cube.

I am going to make an instruction manual even dorf could do for this martycube ! Tired of reading guys saying I can't do DIY, its too hard. tongue.gif

Well off to sketchup... Man the wife is going to be happy when I tell her the good news about our new sub cubes biggrin.gif
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post #96 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 04:58 PM
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1) Can someone other then ltd (the dude's busy) do a graph of Martycube with 1100 watts in dayton ho vs 2000 watts in uxl driver. I have graph for regular/mini already.

Sure, how many cf internal after displacement is that then? Do you want me to PM it to you? EDIT> and tune?

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post #97 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Sure, how many cf internal after displacement is that then? Do you want me to PM it to you?

according to fr8 it is 5.04 cuft or 142.8 litres
you can post it here. I am just going to copy it to the front. I know a couple of people want to see it here (icluding me tongue.gif)
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post #98 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 05:13 PM
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"Yep I think I remember that one. I guess the audibility depends a lot on the testing method. If you run pure sine waves as I believe Collo did there is no masking and any artifacts will be much more obvious. On real word program the problem is much less severe. Just try and run sines through your main speakers and port artifacts is easy to hear. Still the problem seem to vanish when music or movie content is playing."

agree.

"As a noob to looking at all these charts you guys post smile.gif, compare the marty cube to my sealed cube for the UXL 18" that I am building, I understand that ported is more efficient. Besides that is there much difference besides the "tighter" sound of sealed?"

this is a myth that won't die. long story short...blind shootout with a bunch of avs members with ported, sealed, and horn subs...folks couldn't distinguish among them. and these were enthusiasts.

what you get with ported is more spl around the tuning frequency, in some cases a great deal more. what you lose with the ported cab is most of the feeling below the tuning frequency.

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post #99 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

according to fr8 it is 5.04 cuft or 142.8 litres
you can post it here. I am just going to copy it to the front. I know a couple of people want to see it here (icluding me tongue.gif)

I can do it but John alluded to he employing a limiter in his design that I asked and am very interested in but have no idea how to employ? So I can’t do it thinking about it. I noticed right away mine was different than his from the first. His looks much better because he has gain in the 20-22ish region.

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post #100 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 05:31 PM
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i went back and double checked the measurements and tried to draw everything to scale.



assumed to be constructed using 0.75" mdf or something similar. first pic is finished solid. second picture is with front panel as removable baffle held in place with magnets. third picture highlights the boards in different colors in order to show the butt joints (where the panels meet). the purple line is the vertical brace in the back of the cab. the light purple brace is a square brace with a round cutout just like the baffle to allow airflow through it. chaluga's sketchup will make it clear if it is not. red, green, and blue boards are all 24" x 24" panels. the back, the internal slot boards, and the baffle are all 24" wide boards, just cut to different heights.


same thing but side view. triple baffle. first layer driver mounts to. second layer has large cutout and goes around the driver. third layer is the removable baffle. how you do the baffle is up to you. easiest would be simple double baffle with front mount driver. again, it is up to you. third picture shows boards again highlighted with different colors.


frequency response with high pass filter engaged. 1db of eq applied to compensate. essentially this is the max output that you can get with about 1100 watts of power and a dayton 460ho driver. of course eq could be applied to bump the low end if you wanted to a bit, but room gain tends to kick in about where this sub starts to roll off for rooms of medium size.


cone excursion is fine.


port velocity should be fine, even at max power.


i can put together more details on the measurements, but i think this should be enough to draw it up chaluga (and erich).

if something isn't clear, just ping me. I'm a little burned out (yeah, drawing all that stuff manually to the nearest 0.01" is tedious!), so not sure how much more, if any, i'll do on this one for now.

here is how they stack up. FULL-MARTYSUB! in green. MARTYCUBE! 2x2x2 in black. sealed sub in blue. MINI-MARTY! will perform pretty much like the FULL-MARTYSUB!, it just has a little different form factor that makes it a slight bit more challenging build (slight). it only gives up about 1db or so around 20hz, so pretty much the same and the FULL-MARTYSUB!.


for those new to all this, room gain also will be a factor and kicks in for most rooms around 30hz or so. so in real life, the rolloff won't be as steep as it appears in these charts.

also, 6db is about the increase in spl by doubling subs and power. so the from 20-30hz, the MARTYCUBE is pretty much 2:1 vs. a sealed cab and of course from about 15-20hz, the FULL-MARTYSUB! just rules them all.

i'm going to go back and point the other post to this one, so there is only one. these pictures and performance are about as accurate as i can get them. the other pics were a first sketch just to see if it was on the right track or not.

oh, and i almost forgot...



:-)
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post #101 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 05:34 PM
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it kind of depends on which way we choose to line up the panels inside/outside, and the depth in the calculator I *think* compensates for panel thickness, so it should all be external dimensions.

more in a bit...[/quote]

Steve,

In the HTS calculator results on the previous page, I made the depth 23.25" to account for a DOUBLE thick front baffle. HTS' calculator doesn't make allowances for that, so I just shortened the depth for the extra baffle. I assumed building on top of a 24" x 24" handi-panel. That is why the height rose to 25.5". Comes to 5.04CF with port, bracing, and driver...

Wait, I just realized a problem....eek.gif

I assumed building on top of a 24" x 24" bottom panel, but that will require cutting the slot panels to 22.5" wide! I think LTD intended this to be cut friendly. Let me recalculate ....Stand by....

Never mind, I see LTD already posted the cut-friendly design...smile.gif

Edit: The width will now be 25.5" and the height is now 24". Everything is cut-friendly. Still comes out to 5.04CF...smile.gif
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post #102 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I realize you're around 5.25cuft, but that's because you're sticking with certain panel dimensions."

i might not be completely understanding what you are asking, as that is what i was trying to get at. that minimum size isn't related to handy panel dimensions. it just so happens to work out that a 2x2x2 external gives 5.25 roughly internal and that is about the minimum that i would go with.

if i had a cnc machine and full license to do anything, i still wouldn't want to go below about 5.25 cu ft, 20hz tuning, for drivers from the Dayton 460ho to the uxl, and for power up to about 3000 watts or so. at that size, performance is already beginning to be compromised (or there wouldn't be any reason to build a full size marty, bigger is better).

if you are simply asking what dimensions i would choose if not limited to handy panel dimensions, that is an aesthetic/personal preference thing and I'm not sure. different folks seem to have different preferences form low-profile to tall-boy.

I'll try again. biggrin.gif

You've given 3 different designs. You last design is the smallest because you're trying to use handy panels. I'm not saying we should go smaller than 5.5cuft.

If you were not restricted to using handy panels, what would be your optimal size under 8 cuft that gave great output, but wasn't huge. I'm guessing it's not actually the 24" cube. Would it be 6.5cuft? 7cuft?


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post #103 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Ltd I will try to have my sketchup drawing up tonight. Off to dinner
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post #104 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 06:00 PM
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John> cone excursion is fine.

I see you have xmax at 20 John, but the HO states 12.75 Are you going with what Josh suggested or am I missing something? I'm sure I am.

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post #105 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 06:08 PM
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"1) Can someone other then ltd (the dude's busy) do a graph of Martycube with 1100 watts in dayton ho vs 2000 watts in uxl driver. I have graph for regular/mini already."

unequalized non-highpassed response, 1100 watts into the Dayton 460ho subs, 2200 watts into the UXL in a MARTYCUBE! uxl is red. (i plopped in 2200 watts, which is what an inuke3000 will do into 4 ohms. which at this level of resolution is the same as 2k.)


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post #106 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 06:12 PM
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"I see you have xmax at 20 John, but the HO states 12.75 Are you going with what Josh suggested or am I missing something? I'm sure I am."

good question. that 12.75 number josh thinks is the geometric number (the voice coil overhang). his monkeying around with the driver suggested a usable number of around 19-20mm or so. i backed out the cone excursion from his spl/distortion plots and sure enough, there is about 20mm of clean drive in the sub, then distortion goes up pretty fast.

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post #107 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"1) Can someone other then ltd (the dude's busy) do a graph of Martycube with 1100 watts in dayton ho vs 2000 watts in uxl driver. I have graph for regular/mini already."

unequalized non-highpassed response, 1100 watts into the Dayton 460ho subs, 2200 watts into the UXL in a MARTYCUBE! uxl is red. (i plopped in 2200 watts, which is what an inuke3000 will do into 4 ohms. which at this level of resolution is the same as 2k.)


Man my uxl18 in that cube is going to pound. Its awesome in the 30-90hz sweetspot for me. redface.gif
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post #108 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 06:25 PM
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"If you were not restricted to using handy panels, what would be your optimal size under 8 cuft that gave great output, but wasn't huge. I'm guessing it's not actually the 24" cube. Would it be 6.5cuft? 7cuft?"

ah! it is almost a perfectly sliding scale up to about 10 cubic feet or so, then it starts to get minimal gains for added size.

here are some options, all at 1100 watts 460ho driver to illustrate.

3.5 cf blue sealed.
5.0 cf tuned 20hz black
7.0 cf tuned 19hz first orange
9.0 cf tuned 18hz second orange
11.0 cf tuned 17hz green

so the performance just keeps getting slightly better as the subs keep getting slightly bigger, again out to about 10 cubic feet or so in this case, then it slows down. as for what is "too big", as you know, people have wildly different views on that, so it really just depends on how big folks are willing to go in order to get more performance. up to a point, going big tends to be the least expensive way to increase performance. that is why I've been suggesting the big low tuned ported cabs for folks who want the big performance on the smallest budget.

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post #109 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 06:39 PM
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"Man my uxl18 in that cube is going to pound."

:-) sure will. btw, it only hits about 22mm with 2200 w power in that cab, so not really testing its excursion limits.

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post #110 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 06:46 PM
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"Man my uxl18 in that cube is going to pound."

:-) sure will. btw, it only hits about 22mm with 2200 w power in that cab, so not really testing its excursion limits.

do we still need a high pass filter and if so, at what hz??

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post #111 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 06:51 PM
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"do we still need a high pass filter and if so, at what hz??"

highly recommended, at least by me. this is what excursion looks like in that setup (uxl, 2200 watts, MARTYCUBE!) with no highpass filter. under tuning, the driver unloads, and excursion explodes.

a second order high pass anywhere from 20hz down to about 15hz should keep the driver in check.


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post #112 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 07:21 PM
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Wow!!! This thread is amazing!!!!!!. LT, thanks for all your time, work and expertise, you sure play a great part in making DIY a lot more appealing to novices like myself. Props to Chaluga for his efforts in compiling all the specs on the various martys and the manual he is going to create. This is bound to simplify things and encourage others to take the plunge. Also, big thanks to Erich for looking into the possibility of making some marty cube flat packs available in some form or other. And, of course, the other resident experts who are are always here to lend a hand (folks like notnyt, splotten, steve nn, and mhutch--am sure I've missed a few others).
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post #113 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok sketchup is done. I will be posting this in my martycube build thread as well but here it is




Side view



Rendered



I am going to update the first post tomorrow. Tired eek.gif
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post #114 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"If you were not restricted to using handy panels, what would be your optimal size under 8 cuft that gave great output, but wasn't huge. I'm guessing it's not actually the 24" cube. Would it be 6.5cuft? 7cuft?"

ah! it is almost a perfectly sliding scale up to about 10 cubic feet or so, then it starts to get minimal gains for added size.

here are some options, all at 1100 watts 460ho driver to illustrate.

3.5 cf blue sealed.
5.0 cf tuned 20hz black
7.0 cf tuned 19hz first orange
9.0 cf tuned 18hz second orange
11.0 cf tuned 17hz green

so the performance just keeps getting slightly better as the subs keep getting slightly bigger, again out to about 10 cubic feet or so in this case, then it slows down. as for what is "too big", as you know, people have wildly different views on that, so it really just depends on how big folks are willing to go in order to get more performance. up to a point, going big tends to be the least expensive way to increase performance. that is why I've been suggesting the big low tuned ported cabs for folks who want the big performance on the smallest budget.

I think the most optimal for minimal size that would give maximum output @ 20hz under 8cf would be the JTR captivator size: 24w x 24d x 30h. This is around 6 to 6.5cf internal size...

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post #115 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 08:19 PM
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"Ok sketchup is done."

that was fast!

and...looks great. much better than my hurting ms word files. :-)

two minor bits. 1. the vertical back brace that i stuck in the mockup was just left over scrap from the lumber. not really needed. i just threw it in there. and 2. there is a gap in my mockup in the back corner so that the slot braces wouldn't have to be measure exact cut. i figured if for some reason they were cut too long, they would stick out from the front of the cab and that would be terrible, so i made it so they don't have to be exact cuts. in your case, since you will be able to do exact cuts, having no gap as you mocked up is the way to go.

one big bit. 1. what are you thinking about the front? simplest would of course be front mount, no recess. one minor upgrade could be recesed driver. i was kind of hoping that there might be a way to hide the driver mounting hardware with something like a front panel that mounts with magnets or something. anyway, that's what i was thinking on that.

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post #116 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
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"Ok sketchup is done."

that was fast!

and...looks great. much better than my hurting ms word files. :-)

two minor bits. 1. the vertical back brace that i stuck in the mockup was just left over scrap from the lumber. not really needed. i just threw it in there. and 2. there is a gap in my mockup in the back corner so that the slot braces wouldn't have to be measure exact cut. i figured if for some reason they were cut too long, they would stick out from the front of the cab and that would be terrible, so i made it so they don't have to be exact cuts. in your case, since you will be able to do exact cuts, having no gap as you mocked up is the way to go.

one big bit. 1. what are you thinking about the front? simplest would of course be front mount, no recess. one minor upgrade could be recesed driver. i was kind of hoping that there might be a way to hide the driver mounting hardware with something like a front panel that mounts with magnets or something. anyway, that's what i was thinking on that.

For my front i am doing the front mount, no recess. I like the look and i never put grills on. Have two kids and they have known since they could walk to never go near daddy's speakers.
One side note, so I am all excited to tell my wife about the smaller sub and her response " That's nice dear " . I go whattttttttt. Can't please them eh !
I really like the cube size because now I can have them front facing. I know it has zero impact on performance, but I love seeing the cone. cool.gif
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post #117 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 09:25 PM
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(2 x 2 x 2) x 2 = Perfect
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post #118 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 10:09 PM - Thread Starter
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My wife is now excited about the old full size Marty . That is to use the old sub box for a dog house eek.gif. I just need to get rid of the internal bracing. Marty is so flexible :thumbup:
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post #119 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 10:15 PM
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spruced up MARTYCUBE!.



down firing MARTYCUBE!



those sides could even be a separate order type thing that are finished and glued on after the fact. not sure.

with rosewood panels and black grill cloth:

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Listen. It's All Good.
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post #120 of 2576 Old 02-09-2014, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Going to look at veneers tomorrow . Something with some nice grain wink.gif
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