Why aren't there any multi horn full range builds? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 173 Old 02-09-2014, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Just curious if the design of such speakers like Danley produces is too complicated/patented/too big/etc..? The horn full range speakers from Danley just really intrigue me but I've never had the opportunity to listen to any of them.

In general, why aren't any others building something similar?

Here are some examples for those not familiar.

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/jericho/jh-90/

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/molded-synergy-horns/sm96/

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/synergy-horn/sh96ho/

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/synergy-horn/sh96ho/
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post #2 of 173 Old 02-09-2014, 12:17 PM
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Big, complicated, patented, check. biggrin.gif Not only complicated in terms of building (although they certainly seem to be), but also because integrating the midrange drivers seems to be a delicate balancing act of driver type, placement and geometry of horn entrances, and crossover work. Lots of complex and relatively hard-to-model interactions of phase and delay as well as frequency response.

A few are doing it though. Bill Waslo for one has been very generous in documenting and sharing his efforts. http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=19.0
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post #3 of 173 Old 02-09-2014, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by antisuck View Post

Big, complicated, patented, check. biggrin.gif Not only complicated in terms of building (although they certainly seem to be), but also because integrating the midrange drivers seems to be a delicate balancing act of driver type, placement and geometry of horn entrances, and crossover work. Lots of complex and relatively hard-to-model interactions of phase and delay as well as frequency response.

A few are doing it though. Bill Waslo for one has been very generous in documenting and sharing his efforts. http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=19.0

Oh. So the actual concept is patented. Nice read linked.
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post #4 of 173 Old 02-09-2014, 01:28 PM
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It should be said that Tom Danley himself has a history of being helpful when DIY types have taken an interest in these things for personal use. My impression is really that Synergies are just hard to do well, more than the fact of the patent being a major issue (unless one intended to build for profit, of course).
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post #5 of 173 Old 02-09-2014, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by antisuck View Post

It should be said that Tom Danley himself has a history of being helpful when DIY types have taken an interest in these things for personal use. My impression is really that Synergies are just hard to do well, more than the fact of the patent being a major issue (unless one intended to build for profit, of course).

Yea that he has.

The costs of the really large designs are way out of my price range but if there were ways to build something similar I assume there would be atleast a few people crazy enough to do it for HT. I mean who wouldn't want an LCR setup capable of 150db each?

I was at Zac Brown concert last night thinking about Danleys offerings. The sound was very disappointing other than the bass.
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post #6 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 02:13 AM
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I am still collecting parts for my SH64 clone....sort of. More like SH50 but using dual 15's and a 60x40 pattern. I dont have the dollar dollar bills that everyone has so this will be a slow build. Not quite Scott slow but my setup will cost quite a bit less. After seeing countless diy designs and really really liking Speaker Scott's SH design and Chops uber mains I got the go ahead in my head to try this and fail. I assume I will not like the first try at it but I am not going to give up. I want mine to be a passive setup also so I can use one amp channel per cabinet. This will be a huge struggle to accomplish. I will attempt a fully active setup first because I have the electronics and then go from there.

Either way with a few 21's for subwoofers I am surprised you dont have some SH50's in your HT AVH. biggrin.gif:p
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post #7 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

I am still collecting parts for my SH64 clone....sort of. More like SH50 but using dual 15's and a 60x40 pattern. I dont have the dollar dollar bills that everyone has so this will be a slow build. Not quite Scott slow but my setup will cost quite a bit less. After seeing countless diy designs and really really liking Speaker Scott's SH design and Chops uber mains I got the go ahead in my head to try this and fail. I assume I will not like the first try at it but I am not going to give up. I want mine to be a passive setup also so I can use one amp channel per cabinet. This will be a huge struggle to accomplish. I will attempt a fully active setup first because I have the electronics and then go from there.

Either way with a few 21's for subwoofers I am surprised you dont have some SH50's in your HT AVH. biggrin.gif:p
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

I am still collecting parts for my SH64 clone....sort of. More like SH50 but using dual 15's and a 60x40 pattern. I dont have the dollar dollar bills that everyone has so this will be a slow build. Not quite Scott slow but my setup will cost quite a bit less. After seeing countless diy designs and really really liking Speaker Scott's SH design and Chops uber mains I got the go ahead in my head to try this and fail. I assume I will not like the first try at it but I am not going to give up. I want mine to be a passive setup also so I can use one amp channel per cabinet. This will be a huge struggle to accomplish. I will attempt a fully active setup first because I have the electronics and then go from there.

Either way with a few 21's for subwoofers I am surprised you dont have some SH50's in your HT AVH. biggrin.gif:p

I am just curious, what drivers, horns/waveguides will you be using for this build?
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post #8 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 05:27 AM
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I will be using these per cabinet:
BMS 4550 CD x1
Visaton M10 4" x4
18 Sound 15W750 x 2

And of coarse I will be building the synergy horn for everything to go into. I wanted to go with the SH64 because the size was not gigantic(36") and yet had four 15's. I didnt need the 90 degree horizontal either. BUT since ordering four 15's to start this build I am thinking I might try and just use a pair of 15's per cabinet instead and keep things smaller like a SH60. Either way I have a long way to go yet. Will be doing this build some what blindfolded also. I tend to learn better by mistakes then studying forever behind a computer screen. So with a little bit of reading:rolleyes: and some suggestions on the mids I am going to tackle one of these SH. For others I highly suggest building a design like Speaker Scott. Truly awesome build pics and after seeing his build it gave me the confidence that I could also build one.
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post #9 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 06:03 AM
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Are those the same drivers used in the SH64? I would have imagined it using more expensive drivers given the cost of the actual speaker, although, I am fully aware that this is a very unique design that can do amazing things with normal, everyday drivers!

Also, are you building the actual horns yourself? I have followed along with several threads where people made DIY versions of this horn, and to be honest, it looks incredibly complicated! Good luck with everything!
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post #10 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 06:13 AM
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I will not be using any of the drivers DSL uses in their horn. I will be building the horn from scratch. My costs for the drivers will be considerably less amount of money.
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post #11 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 07:19 AM
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The Danley SynergyUnity design is IMO one of the most revolutionary speaker designs since the advent of the speaker itself.

There are a number of DIY clones out there. They are not easily constructed or designed and on a scale of 1-10 of DIY difficulty I'd say they are an 11. You need to be able to understand the details in the patent and much of what isn't in the patent but has been discovered and published on forums. Then you need to find the elusive midrange drivers which are well suited. Then you need have the fabrication chops to build something this oddly shaped.
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post #12 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 08:32 AM
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Oh, come on. Building the horn isn't all that bad. You just need to be able to cut boards with an angle at the edge that is reasonably accurate. Not really that difficult if you use a table saw and make yourself a "sled" or sleds to do it with. If you use mdf and don't mind some filing and woodfiller (and paint afterward), you can get something that looks impressive the first time.

But as cocostan said, getting the midranges in the right place, with the right ports and the right back-chambers, that can get pretty hard to get right . Might take 1 or 2 or 10 tries to find it.

If you go with DSP crossovers, you'll have a lot more ability to tweak it in.
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post #13 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 08:53 AM
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Yeah, I was referring to the midrange ports which are basically the central piece of the Synergy puzzle. You did quite a bit of work to get yours right.

You also have to assume the potential designer has ever designed even a simple 2-way speaker before (or at least even understands how multi-way speakers operate with transfer functions and such).

There are more difficult woodworking projects, but it is the fact that the Synergy is difficult to pull off in both fabrication and designing that makes it one of the tougher speaker builds. Beyond that, unless you find a buyout speaker like yours Bill, finding midrange drivers that are well-suited, reasonably priced and widely available is not easy. Oh and you have to know what you are looking for, then test it.
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post #14 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 11:20 AM
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I just didn't want anyone who might want to try it to get scared away. The wood horns are kind of fun to make, actually, a break from just doing boxes.

Actually, if you get the midrange entries pretty much as close as you can to the tweeter throat (which is easiest with smaller mid drivers) , and do a quick HornResponse model (also not hard, get parameters from my spreadsheet and the drivers' Thiele/Smalls) to ballpark the port areas and back volumes , you're likely to get something that makes more than reasonable sound.

You won't likely get linear phase response (I still haven't gotten all the way there, though I've been close) but with a miniDSP for crossovers and eq, you can make something surprisingly workable that will act like a broadband point source with directivity.

And while this approach might not give maximum sensitivity nor high enough SPLs to knock wasps out of the air, for home use it should be more than almost anyone would need.
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post #15 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 11:40 AM
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Curious (and not savvy enough to know) redface.gif

LF aside, instead of the multiple modestly sized mids, is there any merit to utilizing a coax driver (B&C) such as in my Catalysts, whereby one could mate the HF element conventionally to the center, yet the big 8" is band-passed separately via multiple phase coherent channels/chambers and then into the ports ... to sum with the remaining components energy?

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post #16 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 11:58 AM
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I hear ya Bill. I don't mean to discourage as much as be realistic. The original post was asking why people aren't building these more often. Those tasks are trivial to you, but not to 99% of the DIYers out there. Look at how popular flatpack kits are. You have to get someone comfortable with slightly advanced woodworking that understands the intricacies of the Synergy design like mid port placement, how to model in HornResp, take response measurements and develop a crossover passive or DSP. That is a small pool, but certainly anyone is capable of it. Your spreadsheet is a huge help for sure.

FOH, that is what Danley does in his cheaper line of molded horns like the SM60. It is a BMS cone coax where the throat mates to the HF portion and a molded port mates to the cone mid section.

Here is a cutaway:

Executing something like this as a DIYer is difficult because it requires shapes that cannot be easily created with wood (That I know of). Also, it requires that the mid portion of the coax is sealed in a small chamber to bring up the lower response and that is difficult for a DIYer to achieve with a coax driver. Bill used very small 2" mids and sealed them off with small tubes. Most of Danley's SH line uses mids that already have sealed backs.
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post #17 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 12:03 PM
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What about the BMS4594 Coax CD. Would that be overkill or not work for some reason?
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post #18 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 12:49 PM
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The 4594 is a coaxial compression driver and not applicable in the way Danley executes the SM line. The 4594 already "combines" the response of the mid and high frequency diaphragms into the 1.4" driver exit at the phase plug.

The SM line uses the BMS 5CN140 (or 5CN160 or an OEM version of it). http://bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=bms_5cn140

This is a more traditional coax. The cone portion is "ported" into the horn sidewalls.

Danley does use the 4594 coax CD in a few of his higher output designs but I personally think there are advantages to the Synergy design over the BMS coax approach. In sense though they are very similar. The BMS coax itself actually works in a similar (but not identical) manner to the Synergy. It uses two diaphragms and actually places the mid diaphragm at the terminus and introduces the high diaphragm later in the line.

The primary advantage of the BMS coax CD is packaging as I don't know of another way to achieve 300-20khz from a point source at those SPL levels in a driver that size...all with the ability to be placed on a single horn. Of course, it is not a free lunch.
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post #19 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks all!

I read all the builds over on diya and diys yesterday/last night.

Although the builds turned out ok none of them are truly loudspeakers in terms of comparing to DSL offerings.

Hope Chrap is successful as well as all the other similar attempted builds.


How are the Jericho horns designed compared to the Synergy? The size allows for more subs which is where I would like to venture. The FR seems to be wider as well which could matter to a lot of people. I can't hear past 15-16k but there are those that need that FR on paper.
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post #20 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 06:04 PM
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Within the Jericho line there are a few different designs. The original Jericho is an extension of the Synergy line and uses some unique technology to "combine" multiple HF drivers without interference issues. I don't know of other speakers that are capable of that level of SPL from a point source. The limiting factor in most pro speakers is the HF driver because it is generally difficult to use multiples without interference so the max output is limited to the capability of a single HF CD. The Jericho JH-90 also integrates similar bass capability but that isn't particularly revolutionary as it is not that tough to squeeze huge bass capability int9'a small space. Getting 150db @10khz from a point source is amazing.

The technology from the Jericho line doesn't really translate into home use. There are some downsides to the technology that aren't worth it in the home and HF max SPL isn't a limiting factor that needs to be solved.

I also don't see much reason to integrating the midbass into the Synergy horn when used in the home. The primary advantage of the midbass portion of the Synergy design is one of packaging and arraying in pro use. Most of the Synergy horns aren't big enough to really act like a horn for the lower frequencies. The overall size of these Synergy with integrated midbass is tiny compare to other similar SPL and bandwidth pro speakers but that isn't all that meaningful in the home.
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post #21 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 07:04 PM
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Mine wont be used indoors. I will be using mine outside or in a gymnasium. I also have learned quite a lot from examples on DIY forum. I hope to someday have a all SH style 7.1 setup but will shoot for outdoors. Inside I just dont have the luxury of space like others on here.
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post #22 of 173 Old 02-10-2014, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Within the Jericho line there are a few different designs. The original Jericho is an extension of the Synergy line and uses some unique technology to "combine" multiple HF drivers without interference issues. I don't know of other speakers that are capable of that level of SPL from a point source. The limiting factor in most pro speakers is the HF driver because it is generally difficult to use multiples without interference so the max output is limited to the capability of a single HF CD. The Jericho JH-90 also integrates similar bass capability but that isn't particularly revolutionary as it is not that tough to squeeze huge bass capability int9'a small space. Getting 150db @10khz from a point source is amazing.

The technology from the Jericho line doesn't really translate into home use. There are some downsides to the technology that aren't worth it in the home and HF max SPL isn't a limiting factor that needs to be solved.

I also don't see much reason to integrating the midbass into the Synergy horn when used in the home. The primary advantage of the midbass portion of the Synergy design is one of packaging and arraying in pro use. Most of the Synergy horns aren't big enough to really act like a horn for the lower frequencies. The overall size of these Synergy with integrated midbass is tiny compare to other similar SPL and bandwidth pro speakers but that isn't all that meaningful in the home.

Well you lost me on everything except DSL being able to squeeze sub drivers into the cabinets. Yeah there are loud compact designs for bass but if searching for extreme spl throughout the entire FR from one cabinet, why are designs like this not favorable for HT use?

Chop is trying to go as loud as possible with his seosr build but it will be larger than a DSL cabinet which will outperform Chops EXTREME DIY loudspeaker.

I guess what I'm getting at is- is there any other way to build a cabinet (über speaker) with full capabilities throughout the FR while staying with a somewhat point source cabinet?
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post #23 of 173 Old 02-11-2014, 03:51 AM
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Chop isn't trying to build a speaker that can play louder in the HFs. Jericho level output of 150db in the HFs is useful in an 80000 seat stadium. Nobody is using the full 125db output capability of their HF horn in the home unless they wear earplugs.

Guys like NotNyt want subwoofers capability into the 130db range but he is not playing content above 200hz at those levels (or so I hope).

The technology in the Jericho also isn't a free ride. Combining 3 HF compression drivers into a point source introduces some warts you wouldn't want in hifi. They are certainly worth it if you need 150db full range though.

Uber builds like Chops are meant to keep as much content as a point source, control directivity as widely as possible and have so much headroom that dynamics are limitless and distortion is exceptionally low. Headroom above 1khz is not tough.
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post #24 of 173 Old 02-11-2014, 06:59 AM
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There are other ways to do full range horns. The shape of the synergy lens has all the shortcomings of a standard conical horn. Additionally, a conical that loads to low frequencies will be huge.

One of these days I'll get around to building and posting about my full range approach. I'm just stuck on finding a suitable tweeter as crazy as that sounds.

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post #25 of 173 Old 02-11-2014, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

The 4594 is a coaxial compression driver and not applicable in the way Danley executes the SM line. The 4594 already "combines" the response of the mid and high frequency diaphragms into the 1.4" driver exit at the phase plug.

The SM line uses the BMS 5CN140 (or 5CN160 or an OEM version of it). http://bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=bms_5cn140

This is a more traditional coax. The cone portion is "ported" into the horn sidewalls.

Danley does use the 4594 coax CD in a few of his higher output designs but I personally think there are advantages to the Synergy design over the BMS coax approach. In sense though they are very similar. The BMS coax itself actually works in a similar (but not identical) manner to the Synergy. It uses two diaphragms and actually places the mid diaphragm at the terminus and introduces the high diaphragm later in the line.

The primary advantage of the BMS coax CD is packaging as I don't know of another way to achieve 300-20khz from a point source at those SPL levels in a driver that size...all with the ability to be placed on a single horn. Of course, it is not a free lunch.

I've always been a bit suspicious of the coax CD, it looks as though it is a dual ring radiator with the time-alignment screwed up. What I think would be the cat's pajamas would be if there was a Synergy designed "coax" driver with say a 6" throat that already had the mid and the high packaged ala Synergy and you just bolt on the horn.

In fact, if I was to make a Synergy horn, I would probably do just that. Focus on building the the first apex portion of the horn with mids and CD's and then bolt the horn on later. It might not buy much but it would by some flexibility in experimentation. Obviously doesn't make sense for DSL to do that as then it would be constrained to the one polar pattern.

JoshK on most other audio forums
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post #26 of 173 Old 02-11-2014, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Chop isn't trying to build a speaker that can play louder in the HFs. Jericho level output of 150db in the HFs is useful in an 80000 seat stadium. Nobody is using the full 125db output capability of their HF horn in the home unless they wear earplugs.

Guys like NotNyt want subwoofers capability into the 130db range but he is not playing content above 200hz at those levels (or so I hope).

The technology in the Jericho also isn't a free ride. Combining 3 HF compression drivers into a point source introduces some warts you wouldn't want in hifi. They are certainly worth it if you need 150db full range though.

Uber builds like Chops are meant to keep as much content as a point source, control directivity as widely as possible and have so much headroom that dynamics are limitless and distortion is exceptionally low. Headroom above 1khz is not tough.

Yeah, that's my point. Chop would have built his LCR to play louder throughout the FR if he could have, I assume.

I'm sure 3 jh-90s would be extreme overkill in a ht room but so are some of our sub builds. I've experienced pretty loud mids/highs but no idea what "my" threshold would be for 200hz but assume if it was clean I'd listen to it until I "had" to turn it down (just for fun at times).
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post #27 of 173 Old 02-11-2014, 11:05 AM
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What I think you are missing is that there is no benefit to headroom that large. Chop's present build is limited to about 136db (give or take 6db depending on how you want to measure the limit) and that limit is dictated by the BMS coax CD not the woofers.

The guys like NotNyt run a house curve. He might want 136db at 20hz but he doesn't want that at 500hz and definitely not at 10khz. You leave the room in tears if you didn't have your hands over your ears.

Instead, even the craziest of us in the largest of HT rooms are at best seeing 105db peaks at 6m. That means that sitting about 20ft back a speaker needs to be able to put out no more than 120db @ 1m. Chop has 16db of headroom above that. Adding 20db of headroom (JH-90 can do 150db) would be of no benefit. That is also only on peaks and in the biggest of rooms.

Even a simple SEOS Tempest can probably do 124db @1m so it would have 4db+ of headroom with a 20ft listening position which is significant.

JBL's top of the line pro cinema speaker can only do 142db peak and that would be adequate for the biggest commercial theaters in the world.

Sure Chop would have built it for more headroom but it is not possible without adverse frequency response side effects. The methods used in the Jericho don't give a particularly smooth response. At least not smooth enough to be worth going from 16db+ headroom to 30db+ headroom.

At some point there is 0 audibility to headroom. In some cases it is because there is no physical benefit like if achieving your max SPL you needed 100w and you had an amp that could do 2000w. Upgrading to a 8000w amp would show no improvement. The same goes for additional HF driver headroom. Going from 4db of headroom to 16db of headroom might be audible but not hugely so. Going from 16db headroom to 30db headroom will be unnoticeable (assuming all else is equal).

That is not to downplay HF headroom. In a medium HT room where you might be 10-12ft from a typical speaker with sensitivity of 86-90db and max peak power handling of 100w you would be limited to 96-100db @ 10ft well under reference. That is why simply moving to an entry level horn speaker sounds so much better when played loudly. The bigger, badder horn speakers won't sound more dynamic than the entry-level speaker until you get into the much larger room as both will have significant headroom. (There will be other differences of course like lower midrange distortion and better directivity control, but simple headroom is not the difference)
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post #28 of 173 Old 02-11-2014, 11:37 AM
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Thanks coctostan

(that cutaway shows the backwave of the LF drivers would encounter the rear of the MF cone confused.gif )
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Yeah, that's my point. Chop would have built his LCR to play louder throughout the FR if he could have, I assume.

He did.

With four 15"s per channel, and a waveguide loaded pro compression driver, the venue is covered wrt output, no?

? I don't understand. Thru the FR?

As I'm guessing you know, due to the wavelengths involved, there's a myriad of issues that are counter-productively destructive with integration ... when doubling up/using multiple drivers on anything other than those drivers covering the longer wavelengths. Besides, proper compression drivers easily cover any home environment, with spare headroom. I mean real IMAX theaters (not the converted pseudo IMAX houses), have one HF compression driver per screen channel.

BTW, I've had the wonderful opportunity to experience Chop's SEOS-Rs.


(edit, I see coctostan answered much better)

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post #29 of 173 Old 02-11-2014, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

What I think you are missing is that there is no benefit to headroom that large. Chop's present build is limited to about 136db (give or take 6db depending on how you want to measure the limit) and that limit is dictated by the BMS coax CD not the woofers.

That makes sense, but still don't think max output would run some out of the room from seats/rows

The guys like NotNyt run a house curve. He might want 136db at 20hz but he doesn't want that at 500hz and definitely not at 10khz. You leave the room in tears if you didn't have your hands over your ears.

I run such a curve from 20-80hz. I also max out my triple 8s while sitting in front row (aprox 12-13')

Instead, even the craziest of us in the largest of HT rooms are at best seeing 105db peaks at 6m. That means that sitting about 20ft back a speaker needs to be able to put out no more than 120db @ 1m. Chop has 16db of headroom above that. Adding 20db of headroom (JH-90 can do 150db) would be of no benefit. That is also only on peaks and in the biggest of rooms.


Even a simple SEOS Tempest can probably do 124db @1m so it would have 4db+ of headroom with a 20ft listening position which is significant.

JBL's top of the line pro cinema speaker can only do 142db peak and that would be adequate for the biggest commercial theaters in the world.

Sure Chop would have built it for more headroom but it is not possible without adverse frequency response side effects. The methods used in the Jericho don't give a particularly smooth response. At least not smooth enough to be worth going from 16db+ headroom to 30db+ headroom.

Now this would make the most sense. If the world's best proclaimed speaker wouldn't be as smooth then why fork out $100+k for inferior sound.

At some point there is 0 audibility to headroom. In some cases it is because there is no physical benefit like if achieving your max SPL you needed 100w and you had an amp that could do 2000w. Upgrading to a 8000w amp would show no improvement. The same goes for additional HF driver headroom. Going from 4db of headroom to 16db of headroom might be audible but not hugely so. Going from 16db headroom to 30db headroom will be unnoticeable (assuming all else is equal).

Yet again makes perfectly good sense if its "only" headroom but if one can or would like to be able to turn it up then it wouldn't be head room

That is not to downplay HF headroom. In a medium HT room where you might be 10-12ft from a typical speaker with sensitivity of 86-90db and max peak power handling of 100w you would be limited to 96-100db @ 10ft well under reference. That is why simply moving to an entry level horn speaker sounds so much better when played loudly. The bigger, badder horn speakers won't sound more dynamic than the entry-level speaker until you get into the much larger room as both will have significant headroom. (There will be other differences of course like lower midrange distortion and better directivity control, but simple headroom is not the difference)


I'm just baffled by some of the logic behind the whole headroom conversations at times is all. There are many that think "x" amount of spl at "x" frequency is just insane while others would think its nowhere near loud enough. So when I see the word headroom associated with spl I know its just one's personal opinion.

I have no idea how loud I would perceive 140db at 200hz, 500hz, 800hz, etc... I haven't had the opportunity to be exposed to a cab that could put that in my face, let alone at my seat.

I'm sure you are right in the concept of jumping from extreme to over extreme but I don't know where the difference between the two begins(when I place hands over ears). If I had an LCR setup that would give me 10-12db headroom from the "place hands over ears db mark with music" then I'd be totally satisfied.
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post #30 of 173 Old 02-11-2014, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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FOH, I'm talking about from 100hz-16/18khz.

How loud can Chop's LCRs go while staying flat in this range? Then go sit in the second or third row and how loud will it be? That's where I set so say 20'-28' away.

Like I said above, I've never experienced a cab in a room that was capable of the need for ear plugs so I'm ignorant to such an environment. Did or could have chop's LCR cause such pain for "you"?

Just as a reference. The loudest thing I remember from just the top of my head that I've been exposed to would be a tractor most likely. Its been years but I clearly remember covering my ears from a good distance during tractor pulls while in the pits.
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