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Old 02-14-2014, 10:23 AM
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tux is onto something there, as there really isn't a 'best' system. there are better and/or different systems and all have compromises. budget is a big one, as is size/form factor, and both are arguably outdone by technical complexity, such as crossover design. then there are the goals, with the big one being how loud you need the system to play and what kind of experience you are looking for.

i've been observing many of your posts and it seems that you keep trying to find "the best system in the world for everything" and as a result, you keep going around in circles. with your tremendous efforts of pursuit, you are tiring even me out! if such a system existed, jbl would not have a hundred different speakers in their pro lineup...they would have but one.

just something to think about... :-)
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Old 02-14-2014, 10:24 AM
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They probably made it deeper to allow the CD to handle a lower crossover point, but then made it taller so it didn't look funky.
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Old 02-14-2014, 11:25 AM
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It is likely deeper because the dimensions demand it with a wider throat assuming a nominal 90deg wide horizontal is required. There will be a sharper mouth transition than the 1" version. It also has to be taller or have virtually no roundover vertically with the wider throat.

LTD is right. We are talking about the extremes of performance. There are even a whole host of designs that aren't discussed like dipole or cardioid bass, non constant directiivity horns like L'Cleach, Iwata and modified Tractrix, arrays, etc etc. When you get to the extremes you will find little to no conclusive evidence as to which design choice is best and ultimately it comes down to design choices. A L'Cleach will sound different than a Geddes style setup. You will have camps that prefer one or the other.

What I try to stick to are what we know which is the significance of having well controlled off-axis response. If the polars look bad it will sound bad (unless you are nearfield in an overly treated studio). Now the caveat is that there are debates as to which set of "non-bad" polars are the best. Wide and constant? Narrow and constant? Wide horizontally, narrow vertically? Collapsing gradually? Omni? etc etc.

Oh and you have to contend with designs that are what I call narrowly subjectively positive. A speaker that accentuates something that then sounds exceptional with a narrow genre of content. Someone might prefer a system that really exaggerates the midbass when listening to metal, but that is not necessarily a better speaker. Some speakers sound amazing with female vocal solos, but it isn't because they are portraying the recording accurately. A truly good speaker will portray all recordings accurately while also being subjectively positive across all genres. At least in my opinion.

There is a lot of BS out there and I'm not even talking about magic cables and nano-quantum-EMF blocking stickers.
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Old 02-14-2014, 11:31 AM
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You should see the E-JMLC-300 I just got in. That would be an interesting design choice at about 38" wide.

Somehow a pair ended up on the pallet and I unknowingly paid for them. Expensive, but also impressive.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

You should see the E-JMLC-300 I just got in. That would be an interesting design choice at about 38" wide.

Somehow a pair ended up on the pallet and I unknowingly paid for them. Expensive, but also impressive.

http://gpoint-audio.com/diy/horns-pl-diy-2/e-jmlc-horns/

The plot looks like a Christmas tree... The thing looks infinitely cool though.

Building a HT with 7.2.4 layout and ◤SEOS-24◥ LCR.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:07 PM
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Both SEOS-18™ 1" and 1.4" & 1.5" are on this page:

http://gpoint-audio.com/diy/horns-pl-diy-2/seos-horns/

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Old 02-14-2014, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

You should see the E-JMLC-300 I just got in. That would be an interesting design choice at about 38" wide.

Somehow a pair ended up on the pallet and I unknowingly paid for them. Expensive, but also impressive.

2" throat? I have too many horns already but it would be fun to play with. My wife would shake her head.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

2" throat? I have too many horns already but it would be fun to play with. My wife would shake her head.

Probably out of jealousy since there are few women so sexy like that horn....biggrin.gif

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Old 02-14-2014, 12:29 PM
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Can someone enlighten me at to the real-world benefits of an 18 or 24" wide horn? I would assume this means cabinets nearing 2 1/2 feet wide?! I don't see a lot of pro cabinets at such a prodigious measurement, so it of course caused me to wonder what they are missing in the output/performance depts.

Seeing next to no one is much more than 20 feet from the speakers in 99% of home applications- and that existing arrays can already reach ear-splitting levels with a relatively small amount of power- where do these excel so much more (over existing options) that someone would be willing to construct such substantially larger loudspeakers?

thanks and have a great weekend!

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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Old 02-14-2014, 12:32 PM
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It's all about controlling directivity lower in frequency. The larger the horn, the better it can do it.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

2" throat? I have too many horns already but it would be fun to play with. My wife would shake her head.

Yes, it's for a 2". The E-JMLC-600 is a perfect match for the BA-750 and extremely flat, but obviously I haven't tried anything on the big 300.
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Old 02-14-2014, 01:46 PM
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Somehow a pair ended up on the pallet and I unknowingly paid for them.
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Old 02-14-2014, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Can someone enlighten me at to the real-world benefits of an 18 or 24" wide horn? I would assume this means cabinets nearing 2 1/2 feet wide?! I don't see a lot of pro cabinets at such a prodigious measurement, so it of course caused me to wonder what they are missing in the output/performance depts.

Seeing next to no one is much more than 20 feet from the speakers in 99% of home applications- and that existing arrays can already reach ear-splitting levels with a relatively small amount of power- where do these excel so much more (over existing options) that someone would be willing to construct such substantially larger loudspeakers?

thanks and have a great weekend!

James
Why do people buy Porsches or Corvettes?

I feel addressed here, I have three SEOS-24™ on order...

Besides, i don't really fancy pro speakers per se. These sound horrible sometimes when I go to gigs, indoor and outdoor, or at the movie theatre. I fancy getting as little as possible distortion at every possible SPL and every audible frequency the movie ever reaches, and this for all the people whether they sit central or at the side!

We build big because we can. Just like Piech did when he pushed for the Veyron. Or Kennedy when he announced to go to the moon. biggrin.gif

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Old 02-14-2014, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

tux is onto something there, as there really isn't a 'best' system. there are better and/or different systems and all have compromises. budget is a big one, as is size/form factor, and both are arguably outdone by technical complexity, such as crossover design. then there are the goals, with the big one being how loud you need the system to play and what kind of experience you are looking for.

i've been observing many of your posts and it seems that you keep trying to find "the best system in the world for everything" and as a result, you keep going around in circles. with your tremendous efforts of pursuit, you are tiring even me out! if such a system existed, jbl would not have a hundred different speakers in their pro lineup...they would have but one.

just something to think about... :-)

It's not that I am searching for the best x/driver, or the best y/driver, my endless barrage of questions range from questions about x/y drivers, crossover design, ways to properly EQ a room, ect, ect...

You see, to me it is so so much fun to come on here and learn about this stuff with regards to speaker design, driver perforce, and all of the other aspects that have to do with this hobby. I think you guys are mis-interpreting my questions into thinking that I am just pushing my way around with all of the questions about drivers. That is not the case! I may ask a question about this driver or that driver, but that doesn't mean that I plan to actually buy these drivers and start a build by my self. I do it for fun! This has turned into a hobby. I ask questions so that I can learn . I don't like to ask too many technical questions about speaker and/or crossover design, because a lot of people won't explain it, and they get irritated and make condescending remarks about like "if you don't know anything about phase and time alignment then you need to do some more research! "

That, of course is just an example, but, what I am saying is that some folks on here are nice, and will answer my sometimes, elementary, questions, like Tux and LTD02, then there are others who act like they could care less in helping answer a question.

Bottom line is that people like to talk about drivers, that is where the fun is at! Talking about crossover design is kind of boring, and although I try to read as much as I can regarding crossover design, it's still the most fun to discuss drivers! So don't everyone get their panties in a wad when we do so!

Big thanks to: Tux , LTD02, and Cocostan!
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Old 02-14-2014, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

It's not that I am searching for the best x/driver, or the best y/driver, my endless barrage of questions range from questions about x/y drivers, crossover design, ways to properly EQ a room, ect, ect...

You see, to me it is so so much fun to come on here and learn about this stuff with regards to speaker design, driver perforce, and all of the other aspects that have to do with this hobby. I think you guys are mis-interpreting my questions into thinking that I am just pushing my way around with all of the questions about drivers. That is not the case! I may ask a question about this driver or that driver, but that doesn't mean that I plan to actually buy these drivers and start a build by my self. I do it for fun! This has turned into a hobby. I ask questions so that I can learn . I don't like to ask too many technical questions about speaker and/or crossover design, because a lot of people won't explain it, and they get irritated and make condescending remarks about like "if you don't know anything about phase and time alignment then you need to do some more research! "

That, of course is just an example, but, what I am saying is that some folks on here are nice, and will answer my sometimes, elementary, questions, like Tux and LTD02, then there are others who act like they could care less in helping answer a question.

Bottom line is that people like to talk about drivers, that is where the fun is at! Talking about crossover design is kind of boring, and although I try to read as much as I can regarding crossover design, it's still the most fun to discuss drivers! So don't everyone get their panties in a wad when we do so!

Big thanks to: Tux , LTD02, and Cocostan!
You should start out by designing a small two way and work your way up from there.

As for what's best for you, a large ribbon, SEOS 15, SEOS 24, etc...you have to think about how low do you want to control directivity, size constraints, etc...

Mike
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Old 02-15-2014, 09:23 AM
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I would disagree on one point, Marty. I've seen a willingness by others to answer just about every question posted here and I seldom see others talk down to people. Sometimes the answer is, "we just spoke about xyz in thread abc", but that's an acceptable response too. The links and info thrown shared here is phenomenal and I think we all appreciate it.

This hobby has swallowed all of us. It's just nice to not be alone. smile.gif
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Old 02-15-2014, 09:25 AM
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Also Marty, I would like to see you build a high efficiency design with a TPL-150h so that I can copy it! I'd like a pair of 10's on either side of it. Thanks. smile.gif
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Old 02-15-2014, 09:32 AM
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"It's all about controlling directivity lower in frequency. The larger the horn, the better it can do it."

+1

less room effects further down the response curve.

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Old 02-17-2014, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post

Why do people buy Porsches or Corvettes?

I feel addressed here, I have three SEOS-24™ on order...

Besides, i don't really fancy pro speakers per se. These sound horrible sometimes when I go to gigs, indoor and outdoor, or at the movie theatre. I fancy getting as little as possible distortion at every possible SPL and every audible frequency the movie ever reaches, and this for all the people whether they sit central or at the side!

We build big because we can. Just like Piech did when he pushed for the Veyron. Or Kennedy when he announced to go to the moon. biggrin.gif

We're capable of doing many things, still, the one's worth doing should have a purpose...like traveling to the moon.

I wasn't personally addressing anyone, but rather simply asking what kind of real-world/measurable dilemmas these solved over the exiting 12-15" SEOS, so I appreciate the response that addressed the actual question by stating that the goal is to increase directivity a bit lower.

Again, I didn't realize these were really issues (audible ones, anyway) per se, in a typically-sized room where listeners are 5-15/20 feet away. Giant horn/WG arrays seem (to me anyway) purposed for venues substantially larger than someone's living room or basement and thus why you do not see them in most loudspeaker systems built for the latter, regardless of price. Shows what I know, obviously.

The whole idea of directivity miffs me sometimes altogether, admittedly. Naturally-occuring sound reflects off its surroundings in virtually every space, all the time. Instruments, voices, drums, explosions, trains, etc. So then, these sounds will absolutely measure differently than if they were emanating from a small(er) source with a horn/waveguide controlling their output. So sometimes the need/desire to have sound NOT reflect (coming from a speaker) confounds me (although I can understand WHY others find it to be desirable, per below).

Bi polar speakers are looking to do the precise opposite, obviously, and largely purport the aforementioned as to to why THEIR designs offer a more realistic, "you are there" sound. Does a cymbal strike (all else being equal) appear more "real" emanating from a bi-polar speaker than one of this sort? I cannot say with certainty, but I know the differing designs change things for imaging purposes and other such things, so I'd imagine a subjective audition would almost certainly reveal an obvious preference between the two...or at the very least, an easily identifiable difference. Which one is "correct" / acccurate/true-to-source?

It would be great- and a bit ridiculous, lol to place a real cymbal, WG speaker, and bi polar in a room, as similarly situated and level matched as possible, and see what results, in a blind ABC.

I'm really just saying that there seems to be a lot of different opinion on what sounds the "best" or most realistic and it's funny that some of them are nearly directly opposed to one another. Further, assuming there is no "correct" answer, is the SEOS/WG approach a bit of a "fad" in these parts right now, similar to how sealed sub applications were the absolute of absolutes around here for real bass production, but now in the last couple of months we're seeing some doing a 180 and going with much larger, ported, designs as well as many new builds seeming to be tipping towards ported.

Doesn't mean the SEOS is not wonderful and completely viable option, of course, just an honest curiosity.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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Old 02-17-2014, 09:57 AM
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If there is already reflections in the recording (tho much better controlled). Why would you have your room clutter it up? And a controlled directivity speaker doesnt eliminate room reflections in your room. Far from it. But they do control it better than a normal 180° speaker. (wich also spreads sound 360°)
You obviously wouldnt want a totally dead room. But sounds arriving at your ears than less than 20ms(i dont remeber the correct value, but you catch my drift.) blends with the direct sound. While sounds arriving later will not blend as much and add to the spaciousness.

I probably have alot of details wrong, but i think the general point is somewhat correct.
Or i may be totally off, and someone will correct me tongue.gif
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Old 02-17-2014, 10:07 AM
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^ I understand your point and have considered it in the past myself, but I always arrive back to the idea that even if those reflected properties are captured (correctly) in the original media (which is a big IF in and of itself, imo), a direct radiating system still won't (necessarily) produce them as they sounded. And it this is NOT the case, and it can be done fairly reliably, then bi-polar speakers are really doing a great disservice to trying to re-create sound as we actually hear it for precisely the reasons you and I pointed out.

thanks

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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Old 02-17-2014, 10:37 AM
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Bi-polars (and open baffle speakers) require som space to work propely, and i would guess that is so the backwave reflecting off the front wall doesnt arrive too soon and mix with the direct sound.

Edit. I might have got the reasoning wrong, probably something else that make them require "some" space. I just checked and noticed the 50ms isnt more than ~17cm/0.56ft. So the backwave from bi-polars and open baffle speakers arrive waay later than that. Unless you stick them right up to the front wall.
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Old 02-17-2014, 10:43 AM
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I agree that controlling directivity down to 300hz isn't exactly at the top of my list of needs. As long as >800hz isn't splashing around the room we're ok.

Now, what's better, omni or directional? Well, there have been tests done and the directional speaker is usually preferred. To a point. I personally can't tolerate the few very narrow directivity speakers I've heard. The SEOS is 90 degrees and this is pretty good I think.

Take two extremes, and echoey gymnasium and a completely dead recording studio, or even anechoic chamber. Which speaker would you pick in the gym? The reality is that our rooms are something in between, but we're trying to reproduce the sound accurately.

The other thing to consider is that its not just about the room. It's also about consistent off axis response, good imaging, etc. many people find a constant directivity speaker can do this more easily.

I don't think directivity control is a fad around here. It was very popular long before SEOS came into existence. Sub alignments constantly change. Horns, ported, sealed. Round and around.
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Old 02-17-2014, 11:06 AM
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Yes, "fad" was probably not the best term...maybe "hot", lol. Because- as we all know by now- all have their pluses and minuses.

As a current owner of Deftech Bi-Polars I'm considering moving to SEOS so by no means do I really have a dog in the hunt either way.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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Old 02-17-2014, 11:10 AM
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I have yet to hear an omnidirectional speaker that I thought sounded good. I've heard hi-end Duevels and they sounded diffuse but didn't image well. Heard a ton of other implementation and didn't like them either.

A very well set up controlled directivity environment however can sound amazing. Early reflections are bad, later ones can be used to good effect. Too little reflections results in a headphone like sound that isn't very pleasant either (few really get this done though).
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:14 PM
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I sometimes prefer bi-pole or dipole for stereo listening where the additional room contribution can add life to a dry recording. For multichannel music and HT, bi-pole/dipole add too much for me.

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Old 02-17-2014, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
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The whole idea of directivity miffs me sometimes altogether, admittedly. Naturally-occuring sound reflects off its surroundings in virtually every space, all the time.

That's what surround surround is for.

Noah
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:54 AM
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50ms is about 50 ft.... sound travels about 1.13ft per millisecond. So for 10 milliseconds between direct and backwave you'd need to be about 5ft from the wall behind.

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Old 02-18-2014, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Can someone enlighten me at to the real-world benefits of an 18 or 24" wide horn? I would assume this means cabinets nearing 2 1/2 feet wide?! I don't see a lot of pro cabinets at such a prodigious measurement, so it of course caused me to wonder what they are missing in the output/performance depts.

Hey James, you bring up a good point.

I'm not certain, but your "pro" example may refer to pro sound/touring sound reinforcement offerings ... where size and weight and standardized truck "pack-ability" are of paramount concern. As has been mentioned, it's all about pattern control as low as needed. Even touring sound systems are mostly streamlined and lightweight, they still strive for tight pattern control, however in a multi-element/multi-cabinet optimized interaction approach (this encompasses both ends of the spectrum, with subwoofer pattern control down to 30hz and below). Cardioid subs, cardioid sub arrays are nothing new, and when you've got to pump phenomenal amounts of LF into a stadium concert, it's beneficial to keep it off the stage and out of the multitude of open mics*.

But most importantly, and the point of this post, if you examine fixed installations, where size and form factor take a back seat to playback quality, you often see large directivity control waveguides/horns. Places like quality movie theaters, screening rooms, recording studios, mastering houses, etc., one is likely to find them.

Regarding some of your bipolar comments, you may enjoy reading Siegfried Linkwitz's wonderful web info. It's entirely likely that you already have. Few have poured more into how loudspeakers realistically illuminate a space with acoustic energy, and attempt to resolve the recorded spatial experience than Siegfried...good stuff (seemingly, always something new every visit).

Thanks

*for a recent Metalica tour, a nicely directional 90kw sub array flew over the stage, consisting of (80)18"s, 1.2kw ea., even coverage in the seating,.. all 360deg and near and far level consistency, best of all keeping the troublesome LF off the stage) win-win

Quote:
Audio Josh
A very well set up controlled directivity environment however can sound amazing. Early reflections are bad, later ones can be used to good effect.

+1

It's a lot more fun picking apart the minutia of the latest greatest drivers, but yep, the room's influence can't be overstated. Granted, most of these directivity control approaches can lessen the room's impact in the fist critical msec, but the room is still hugely important. Now I enjoy reading about the bass arms race as much as the next guy, but damn, it'd be nice to see some LF decay waterfalls, pre and post bass trapping. I get it, that's another forum ... just sayin'

Thanks

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Old 04-07-2014, 11:45 AM
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