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post #91 of 141 Old 02-14-2014, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I think you're over thinking all the watts, brah. wink.gif



Btw, the 12000 will more than likely output as such: 1kw@8ohm, 2kw@4ohm, 4kw@2ohm. Stereo obviously, no option for bridge.

If you want or need 4kw or more for a single 4ohm load then either the Sanway 14k clone or the Cerwin Vega CV5000 bridged is the correct choice.

The Inuke 12000 will be much stronger than that. You gave the 8 ohm and 4ohm specs for what the Inuke 6000 bench tested at. Uli Behringer and his engineers have stated in the Behringer Q and A thread at prosoundweb the Inuke 12000 will be two Inuke 6000's in one chasis. So the 8 ohm and 4 ohm specs should be near double what you posted along with 2 ohm capability. If all goes well, it should be the first true alternative to a clone amp below $1000
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post #92 of 141 Old 02-14-2014, 08:52 PM
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If it's two 6000 units how is it doing 2ohm stereo?

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #93 of 141 Old 02-14-2014, 09:27 PM
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I guess we will just have to wait and see.


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post #94 of 141 Old 02-14-2014, 09:41 PM
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I hope the 12000 can do 3000+ rwms into 4 ohm. I have seen two different fliers with different specs for the inuke 12000....
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post #95 of 141 Old 02-14-2014, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

If it's two 6000 units how is it doing 2ohm stereo?

Not sure. But the rumor that it is merely a 2ohm stable Inuke 6000 is not true. I asked a question about this on facebook to Behringer and in their Q and A thread six months ago and they confirmed it's two Inuke 6000's combined.

I'm not sure why the old low spec rumor continues here.

Edit: quote contains 8 and 4ohm only specs.
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post #96 of 141 Old 02-14-2014, 09:56 PM
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I don't know but the listed power I put would be pretty useful. The 6k can't do 2ohm. I like to be more conservative with my expectations. Things turn out better that way. smile.gif

2kw @ 8ohm x 2ch in 2RU for <$1,000 would be frikkin' killer!!!


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post #97 of 141 Old 02-14-2014, 10:02 PM
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From the Q and A thread,'' To All,Thanks for your interest in the iNuke amplifier series. I have to apologize for a typo on the marketing feature list of NU12000DSP.NU12000 technically is based around 4 amplifier modules, two pairs of which are internally working in a bridge mode configuration, already. Hence, there is no further option for bridging channels and the minimal load impedance is 4 Ohms, each. We will immediately fix the web featurelist to correctly state:2 x 6000 Watts into 4 Ohms, 2 x 3,000 Watts into 8 Ohms. Sorry for the inconvenience, and I hope that makes sense to you. Regards,Jan Duwe''Assistant Manager Conceptual EngineeringMUSIC-GROUP.

The aforementioned quote clearly shows the Inuke 12000 is two Inuke 6000s. So the 8 ohm and 4 ohm specs will be much higher than the lower watt myth that continues to get passed around here. But the amp might not do 2ohms. But it should do roughly 2 kws at 8 ohms and 4kws at 4ohms judging by the Inuke 6000 bench tests.
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post #98 of 141 Old 02-14-2014, 10:20 PM
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the inuke6000 itself can't be bridged, so the 12000 must be something a little bit different.

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post #99 of 141 Old 02-14-2014, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the inuke6000 itself can't be bridged, so the 12000 must be something a little bit different.

An inuke 6000 inside an inuke 6000 inside another inuke 6000 that has an inuke 6000 in it.

46054793.jpg


Or maybe iNuke-ception.

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post #100 of 141 Old 02-15-2014, 12:02 AM
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I vehemently dislike Xzibit. But the Inception pun was hilarious.smile.gif
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post #101 of 141 Old 02-15-2014, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the inuke6000 itself can't be bridged, so the 12000 must be something a little bit different.

Ya, that never did make sense to me either. I guess we will have to wait for the real specs and physical hardware.

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post #102 of 141 Old 02-15-2014, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Hahaha, good stuff Scott. biggrin.gif


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post #103 of 141 Old 02-15-2014, 11:44 AM
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Scott> An inuke 6000 inside an inuke 6000 inside another inuke 6000 that has an inuke 6000 in it.

LOL Oh yeah! you're talking the 6666 inuke, I have one of those.. tongue.gif

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post #104 of 141 Old 02-18-2014, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

I'm not sure what level matching has to do with it. You should set up the proper gain structure instead and then measure the output with the receiver volume at max.

How do you know you weren't clipping due to to your gain controls set wrong? The iNuke has an input sensitivity of .75 volts (manual, pg 10) and the CV of 1.42 volts.

You could use the Rane method for setting levels. Maximum input signal means turn your receiver volume to max for the test.
Thanks for this, desertdome, it seems like the simple version of the Setting Gain Structure thread on HTS?


Just wondering (and I appreciate this is a n00b question...) how do you know when the AVR output is clipping?

I presume that the amp clip lights will flash up if the amp is receiving square waves from the AVR, even when the amp gain knob is set at minimum?


If so, would the method of setting the gain structure be to crank the AVR up to +18 (which surely no-one sane would ever crank an AVR up to??), turn the amp gain to min then turn it on, find (somewhere??) a 0dBFS full-bandwidth signal and play it through the AVR, turn the AVR LFE channel trim down until the amp clip lights are not flashing (if required), and then turn the amp gain knob up until the amp output is clipping?

How do we tell if the amp output is clipping if the lights on the front of the CV5000 show the input clipping only??


I'm sure this should be simple but it makes my brain hurt... lol
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post #105 of 141 Old 02-18-2014, 01:28 PM
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With all this talk of iNukes within iNukes.... all I can think about is robocop nuke..... OooOoooo blueberry nuke.


I assume on the CV5000 you have the limiter switch in the off position....

According to the manual for the cv-5000 (http://www.cerwinvega.com/manuals/pro/cv5000_manual.pdf) the clip light blink when it detects a distorted signal (input), which the manual says "a distorted signal is possibly being output".
When you hit the clipping limit of the amplifier it will engage protect mode for about 5 seconds reducing the volume.

I think you were sending a distorted signal input to the amps (as any + amount over reference can do). It depends on the device as to what voltage it considers 'full volume'.
Pro audio gear can be all the way up at 4-6 volts, and home audio is somewhere around 1-2 volts. It varies model to model sometimes as opposed to brand to brand.

From the CV-5000 manual:
Code:
Input sensitivity @8 ohms 1.42V (+5.3dB)

Input Impedance 10Kohm Unbalanced 
20Kohm Balanced 

Input Clipping +14dB
Notice the 1.42V figure.....

From the iNuke ####DSP manual (http://www.behringer.com/assets/NU6000DSP_NU3000DSP_NU1000DSP_M_EN.pdf):
Code:
Input impedance  10 kΩ unbalanced, 20 kΩ balanced
On the parts express page for the NU1000 one question askes about the input sensitivity. Answer: "This amp has an input sensitivity of 0.75v"
Other than that no info is given.

Another thing, is what is the voltage your receiver outputs? or are you running through the miniDSP? what voltage does it consider 'full volume'
I have a feeling you were clipping the output of your receiver and the iNuke doesn't measure the input signal clipping, only that it isn't exceeding its input voltage range (aka clipping). The CV-5000 has a much bigger range up to 1.42V and wasn't complaining about that, it was most likely sensing the clipping in the signal and blinking its clip light to signal distortion detected.

Long post short:
You hit the current limit of the iNuke (thats what scared you) and it went into protect mode as it is supposed to do. You did not hit the current limit of the CV-5000 yet. (I think your breaker would pop first)

Another note: the art of flight blu ray has clipping in the recording (seen when looking at the waveform) and is not a good demo for testing....


The joke about turning it up to 11.

When talking about the voltages each device considers full gain, it is possible to go past 100%, aka past 1V (10) to 1.1V (11)
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post #106 of 141 Old 02-18-2014, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rush2049 View Post

With all this talk of iNukes within iNukes.... all I can think about is robocop nuke..... OooOoooo blueberry nuke.


I assume on the CV5000 you have the limiter switch in the off position....

According to the manual for the cv-5000 (http://www.cerwinvega.com/manuals/pro/cv5000_manual.pdf) the clip light blink when it detects a distorted signal (input), which the manual says "a distorted signal is possibly being output".
When you hit the clipping limit of the amplifier it will engage protect mode for about 5 seconds reducing the volume.

I think you were sending a distorted signal input to the amps (as any + amount over reference can do). It depends on the device as to what voltage it considers 'full volume'.
Pro audio gear can be all the way up at 4-6 volts, and home audio is somewhere around 1-2 volts. It varies model to model sometimes as opposed to brand to brand.

From the CV-5000 manual:
Code:
Input sensitivity @8 ohms 1.42V (+5.3dB)

Input Impedance 10Kohm Unbalanced 
20Kohm Balanced 

Input Clipping +14dB
Notice the 1.42V figure.....

From the iNuke ####DSP manual (http://www.behringer.com/assets/NU6000DSP_NU3000DSP_NU1000DSP_M_EN.pdf):
Code:
Input impedance  10 kΩ unbalanced, 20 kΩ balanced
On the parts express page for the NU1000 one question askes about the input sensitivity. Answer: "This amp has an input sensitivity of 0.75v"
Other than that no info is given.

Another thing, is what is the voltage your receiver outputs? or are you running through the miniDSP? what voltage does it consider 'full volume'
I have a feeling you were clipping the output of your receiver and the iNuke doesn't measure the input signal clipping, only that it isn't exceeding its input voltage range (aka clipping). The CV-5000 has a much bigger range up to 1.42V and wasn't complaining about that, it was most likely sensing the clipping in the signal and blinking its clip light to signal distortion detected.

Long post short:
You hit the current limit of the iNuke (thats what scared you) and it went into protect mode as it is supposed to do. You did not hit the current limit of the CV-5000 yet. (I think your breaker would pop first)

Another note: the art of flight blu ray has clipping in the recording (seen when looking at the waveform) and is not a good demo for testing....


The joke about turning it up to 11.

When talking about the voltages each device considers full gain, it is possible to go past 100%, aka past 1V (10) to 1.1V (11)


Hey Ben. smile.gif

Good info, thanks. I run through the minidsp and then to the amps. I don't know what voltage is considered 'full volume' nor how to find this out. I do know that the signal from my avr sub out is very weak. I have to turn my amp gains almost all the way up on my CV. I recently tried an Onkyo 818 and the gains weren't even half way up to get the same output. I did watch the input and output of the minidsp during testing and neither was clipping.

I guess I had been thinking about clipping a pro amp incorrectly. I always thought that a clipping light on the CV and the output light on the inuke was if I was trying to push my subs beyond the capability of the amps, having the input signal as the culprit never occurred to me before DD brought it up.

If input clipping is the problem on both amps that would mean I have a bit more headroom on tap right? I'm now sure how I could use that though since I already have the CV amp at 2 clicks from full - turn them up 2 more clicks I guess, but that's really all I can do right? I do have more room on the inuke amp so I could get some more headroom there I guess.

Am I even on the right road to understanding what you are talking about? eek.gifbiggrin.gif


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post #107 of 141 Old 02-18-2014, 03:34 PM
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You got that right.


So yes, turn the amp dial up all the way, and lower the gain for the subs in the AVR.

Ideally you want a balance between the two. The AVR set to a moderate level out, and the amp set to a moderate level as well, but because your pre-out voltage is so low you need all the headroom that the amp's can give you. And then adjust on the AVR. Don't forget that in the AVR whatever level the sub's are set to add together with the master volume.

Example: if your sub level is set to +2dB and your master volume is 0dB then you are 2dB over reference and the AVR is boosting the signal sent to the subs. (this is bad, depending on the volume of the source you will be clipping before amplification)
The BEST scenario is that the AVR never boosts the gain(on pre-outs) and keeps it equal to the source volume or lower. This will insure no clipping, unless the source is recorded clipping.
Example 2: If your sub level is -8dB and your master volume is +6dB you are effectively outputting -2dB to the subs. (This is good, no clipping before sending to the amp)


Now, where it gets tricky is when your AVR pre-outs send 2volts as the max volume, and the amp expects something lower like 1volt. You have to be careful to not go too loud otherwise the amp will be amplifying something that is over its expected range.
(NOTE: When specs state the input sensitivity in volts, they can actually understand a little bit over that voltage, so its not a hard limit by any means.... but your very close to clipping)

The other situation is prefered, when your AVR pre-out matches or is slightly under what the amp expects. The amp will then be able to apply its dialed setting of amplification to the signal correctly.



From what I can gather about the miniDSP, it can handle 2v to 4v input and output. At what level the miniDSP shows that it is clipping, they wont say.
So that means in your situation, your not going to be able to clip the input of the miniDSP, and depending on your eq/gain set inside the miniDSP you might be sending too high a voltage to clip the amps...



So solution if you want to test again, set the amps to full power (lowering the worse of the two to level match) then do your testing again....... I think you will find that the CV-5000 is better.
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post #108 of 141 Old 02-18-2014, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I will have to test again just to satisfy my curiosity.

Interesting that the Art of Flight scene is the only scene that cause the inukes to mute - and that's the scene you say is already clipped. I won't try that one again.


So, it looks like I lucked out with my avr sub out having a low signal. When I replace it someday chances are the sub out of the new avr will have a lot higher voltage. When that happens what is the solution for this?


What do you mean by the part in parenthesis?


"So solution if you want to test again, set the amps to full power (lowering the worse of the two to level match)"

Do you mean have the CV on full and then turn up the Inuke until it matches the output of the CV when on the same level of sub trim on the avr?


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post #109 of 141 Old 02-18-2014, 03:58 PM
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it is almost impossible to clip a pro amp on the input side.

the input sensitivity is the minimum that is required to produce full output with the gain all the way up. it is the minimum signal needed to get to full power. it was noted that it is 1.42v.

the input clipping figure is what is used to calculate the maximum signal that the amplifier can take on the input side. for the cv5000, it was noted that it is +14db. +14db over the input sensitivity is 1.42v * 10^(14/20) = 7.1 volts. so if inputting more than 7.1 volts, you may be into "input clipping".
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post #110 of 141 Old 02-18-2014, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

it is almost impossible to clip a pro amp on the input side.

the input sensitivity is the minimum that is required to produce full output with the gain all the way up. it is the minimum signal needed to get to full power. it was noted that it is 1.42v.

the input clipping figure is what is used to calculate the maximum signal that the amplifier can take on the input side. for the cv5000, it was noted that it is +14db. +14db over the input sensitivity is 1.42v * 10^(14/20) = 7.1 volts. so if inputting more than 7.1 volts, you may be into "input clipping".

Exactly, that's why I think the cv-5000 has a long way to go before it clips. Much more likely is it was sensing the signal being distorted (clipped) prior to receiving it.

It sucks that beringer doesn't publish the numbers for their amps....... like they are hiding something. wink.gif I'd prefer the specs of the CV-5000 over the number I found for the iNuke, if that is a correct value.
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post #111 of 141 Old 02-18-2014, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I will have to test again just to satisfy my curiosity.

Interesting that the Art of Flight scene is the only scene that cause the inukes to mute - and that's the scene you say is already clipped. I won't try that one again.


So, it looks like I lucked out with my avr sub out having a low signal. When I replace it someday chances are the sub out of the new avr will have a lot higher voltage. When that happens what is the solution for this?


What do you mean by the part in parenthesis?


"So solution if you want to test again, set the amps to full power (lowering the worse of the two to level match)"

Do you mean have the CV on full and then turn up the Inuke until it matches the output of the CV when on the same level of sub trim on the avr?

Sorry I wrote the wrong thing there.

I meant: turn both amps all the way up, then to gain match turn down the better of the two to match. I assume its the iNuke that will have to be turned down, but I am not sure and would happily be wrong.
Also keep in mind the comments the others said about loading both channels of the CV-5000 to make it fair as running one channel gives it an edge.

When amps clip they go into protect mode (if they have a protect mode), or they do really bad things like burn through wiring and start fires.

So conduct your testing again, this time hopefully avoiding clipping before it gets to the amps.
(whether its the AVR, miniDSP, or the input sensitivity of the amps causing the clipping IDK; If I had to guess I would say the iNuke might have input sensitivity clipping, and the CV-5000 has a better distortion detection circuit and is sensing clipping in the signal chain somewhere) Either way you saw the iNuke engage its protect circuit once. That is an amp clipping; Hitting its current limit.
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post #112 of 141 Old 02-18-2014, 05:41 PM
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"Exactly, that's why I think the cv-5000 has a long way to go before it clips. Much more likely is it was sensing the signal being distorted (clipped) prior to receiving it."

???

that's not what clipping indicators do in amps.

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post #113 of 141 Old 02-18-2014, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

???

that's not what clipping indicators do in amps.

The clipping indicator on amps indicate any number of things. To imply that they only show input signal voltage being exceeded would be wrong.

The most common of which is how much does the input signal or output signal look like a square wave as opposed to a sine. AKA lopping off of the peaks.
other things they can show depending on the design: thermal limits, power supply limits, output voltage, output current, distortion, etc.

In fact, depending on design, it might only show one item or many. For example the CV-5000 has a protect indicator which takes some of these measurements and indicates when they are exceeded.
Specifically for the cv-5000 (from the manual):
the protect light indicates: thermal, shorting, dc voltage detected
the clip light indicates: current output max/exceeded, voltage output max/exceeded, distortion of either input/output

sadley again the iNuke does not disclose specific info on this topic.
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post #114 of 141 Old 02-18-2014, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rush2049 View Post

The clipping indicator on amps indicate any number of things. To imply that they only show input signal voltage being exceeded would be wrong.

An amp multiplies voltage and the gain control determines how much the voltage is multiplied.

{Gain control gain} × {Output stage gain} = Overall channel gain

Gain varies from 0-1 and output stage gain is fixed. If the output stage gain is fixed at 32x, then the amp will increase the input voltage by 0-32x. If you turn the gain control all the way down, the amp's output voltage will be the same as the input voltage from the receiver, preamp, DAC, or whatever else is providing the voltage. The amp does not attenuate the input signal which is why the gain controls aren't attenuators.

An amp has a set limit to how much voltage it can output. If the total gain causes the amp to try to output a higher voltage, then clipping occurs.
{input voltage} x {gain control} x {output stage gain} = attempted output voltage

In a way you are right that it isn't the input voltage being exceeded. It is the limit of the amplifier's output voltage. The clip light then indicates when {input voltage} x {gain control} x {output stage gain} is too high. The only way to correct this on the amplifier is to turn down the gain.

This is why the manual for the CV-5000 (pg 6) says the following;
"These red LED will illuminate at the clipping threshold. If it lights frequently, you could be overloading the amplifier and a distorted signal is possibly being output. Under heavy clipping activity, lower the channel gain controls to reduce the risk of damage to your speakers and amplifier."

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 
it is almost impossible to clip a pro amp on the input side.
Correct

There are several places clipping can occur prior to the amp:
1. The source signal can be clipped. This is "burned in" to the Blu-ray or DVD
2. Any DSP in the player, HTPC, receiver, miniDSP, or an amp with DSP. However, a receiver will probably never clip the signal. A receiver's maximum gain level is actually when the trims are all maxed out. You can think of 0 as -12 dB (depending on receiver). It does this to give a known amount of digital headroom. Even Audyssey will never cause a receiver to clip.
3. If the input voltage is higher than the amplifier can output. This won't happen in a pro amp, but can in a low power consumer amp like the T amp.

The first two will never cause the amplifier to clip, but can still sound bad.

If your amp's clip lights come on there are two things you can do which will reduce the attempted output voltage:
1. Reduce the input voltage. This is done by turning down the volume. It isn't the proper method to set gain structure because its too easy for the volume to be raised higher and you have to remember your max volume.
2. Reduce the gain control. This is the proper method of preventing the amp from clipping.
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post #115 of 141 Old 02-18-2014, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Interesting that the Art of Flight scene is the only scene that cause the inukes to mute - and that's the scene you say is already clipped. I won't try that one again.
That is the one you should try. A scene that is clipped at the source indicates that the clipping was done to increase the volume. Increased volume means increased voltage level of the signal. Since this voltage level is higher than other signals, it can cause your amp to clip if the gain controls on the amp are set too high. Flight of the Phoenix also has a clipped source signal which provides the intense output. You should be using a scene like this to properly set your amp's gain level to do your testing.

Jeff Permanian of JTR mentioned to me at dlbeck's GTG last year that he uses real content for setting the limiters on his subs. One scene he uses is from Tron which has high voltage output.
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post #116 of 141 Old 02-19-2014, 06:37 AM
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There is some really useful information on this thread, thank you to all who have contributed smile.gif
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post #117 of 141 Old 02-19-2014, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MemX View Post

There is some really useful information on this thread, thank you to all who have contributed smile.gif

+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by desert dome View Post

One scene he uses is from Tron which has high voltage output.

What scene?
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post #118 of 141 Old 02-19-2014, 07:25 AM
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+1
What scene?

Probably the one right after he goes to the virtual world and the ship abducts him.......
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post #119 of 141 Old 02-19-2014, 07:30 AM
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Well, anyways bringing it back.....

carp, you did a good attempt at finding which amp has more headroom available..... but you could do better biggrin.gif
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Game, set, and match to the Inuke 12000?biggrin.gif
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