Inuke vs. CV 5000 - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by MemX View Post

There is some really useful information on this thread, thank you to all who have contributed smile.gif

+2

You beat me too it...I was going to say the same thing. I will soon be on my way to setting gain, and everything said here has made me understand how everything works a lot better. I've read articles before on setting gain, and kinda got it, but the last few posts really made it set in.

Thanks!!
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post #122 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by rush2049 View Post

The clipping indicator on amps indicate any number of things. To imply that they only show input signal voltage being exceeded would be wrong.

The most common of which is how much does the input signal or output signal look like a square wave as opposed to a sine. AKA lopping off of the peaks.
other things they can show depending on the design: thermal limits, power supply limits, output voltage, output current, distortion, etc.

In fact, depending on design, it might only show one item or many. For example the CV-5000 has a protect indicator which takes some of these measurements and indicates when they are exceeded.
Specifically for the cv-5000 (from the manual):
the protect light indicates: thermal, shorting, dc voltage detected
the clip light indicates: current output max/exceeded, voltage output max/exceeded, distortion of either input/output

sadley again the iNuke does not disclose specific info on this topic.

???

First, plug in your inuke to usb and launch the incredibly useful control software. You can see real-time both input and output full level meters, not just a clip light.

Second, I can easily generate square/saw/triangle waves as part of musical authoring tools and don't want my amp thinking this is clipped content. e.g. dubstep.

I think you really need an oscilloscope to know what's happening on the input and output at each stage. Certainly if you're trying to make bench comparisons between two amps. "Red lights" just doesn't cut it. I'm considering one of the cheapy ones on amazon just out of curiosity. I know my onkyo 809 has some pretty crazy high sub pre output, and I listen to music well above reference frequently. How high can I go before I'm clipping input at the next step in signal chain? (rhetorical question)
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post #123 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 09:51 AM
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Question on input sensitivity.....

If a amps specs show 1.25 Vrms for 800w into 8 ohms, what changes if it went to 4000w into 4 ohm bridged?

I understand that it will take 1.25 Vrms input to achieve max gain at 8 ohm, but how much does the Vrms change when you ask the amp to put out 4000w at 4 ohm?

The question doesn't relate to either amp in discussion, (QSC rmx-4050hd) but I figured since we were on the subject of gain setting that it would fit in.
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post #124 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by andy497 View Post

???

First, plug in your inuke to usb and launch the incredibly useful control software. You can see real-time both input and output full level meters, not just a clip light.


That's exactly what I did. I watched the input and output clip lights on my laptop while testing the inukes. I could only see one inuke at a time on the software but I assume they were clipping at the same time. Only the output clip light came on.

For the CV I had to watch the actual amp.
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post #125 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post

Question on input sensitivity.....

If a amps specs show 1.25 Vrms for 800w into 8 ohms, what changes if it went to 4000w into 4 ohm bridged?

I understand that it will take 1.25 Vrms input to achieve max gain at 8 ohm, but how much does the Vrms change when you ask the amp to put out 4000w at 4 ohm?

The question doesn't relate to either amp in discussion, (QSC rmx-4050hd) but I figured since we were on the subject of gain setting that it would fit in.

This exact question is why in the pro audio world it is more relevant to have the values of the amps internals listed and then just manually calculate the wattage. To learn about ohm's law and a handy calculator: (http://www.diyalarmforum.com/ohms-law-calculator/)
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post #126 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by andy497 View Post

???

First, plug in your inuke to usb and launch the incredibly useful control software. You can see real-time both input and output full level meters, not just a clip light.

Second, I can easily generate square/saw/triangle waves as part of musical authoring tools and don't want my amp thinking this is clipped content. e.g. dubstep.

I think you really need an oscilloscope to know what's happening on the input and output at each stage. Certainly if you're trying to make bench comparisons between two amps. "Red lights" just doesn't cut it. I'm considering one of the cheapy ones on amazon just out of curiosity. I know my onkyo 809 has some pretty crazy high sub pre output, and I listen to music well above reference frequently. How high can I go before I'm clipping input at the next step in signal chain? (rhetorical question)

To find the best levels for every step in the chain its part math, and part by ear.

If you can find the numbers for input/output from every device then you can for sure know they match well. Also there is a certain amount of trust involved, because the specifications usually don't list the absolute max value, its more of an approximation and has wiggle room.

If you have the hardware (Oscope / function meter) you can test your equipment. But that takes a lot more explaining and electrical knowledge that I don't have time to type right now.
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post #127 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post

Question on input sensitivity.....

If a amps specs show 1.25 Vrms for 800w into 8 ohms, what changes if it went to 4000w into 4 ohm bridged?

I understand that it will take 1.25 Vrms input to achieve max gain at 8 ohm, but how much does the Vrms change when you ask the amp to put out 4000w at 4 ohm?

An amps doesn't "put out watts." It only produces voltage. The wattage is always calculated for a certain ohm by using the formula P = E 2 / R.

P=Power (watts)
E=Electrical Potential (voltage)
R=Resistance (Ohms)

If you look at the Measuring Amplifiers thread that is stickied in the DIY forum, you will see only output voltage being measured, not watts.

If an amp is spec'd for 1.25 Vrms, then that means that it takes 1.25 volts of input with the gain at maximum for the amp to output its maximum voltage. You can input more voltage, but must reduce the gain so the math is the same in the end. Trying to increase the output voltage beyond its max is what causes clipping. For example, with 32x of gain you get this:
1.25v x 1 (Gain Control) x 32 (Output Gain stage) = 40
Remember that the Output Gain Stage varies from amp to amp, but is always a fixed number.

If your input voltage maximum is 5 volts (measured with a volt meter), then where do you put the gain control?
5v x Gain x 32 = 40
Gain=40/(5x32)
Gain=.25
5v x .25 x 32 =40 So you end up with the same maximum output voltage, but have had to reduce the gain control.

A number like .25 isn't very helpful for reducing the gain control. Gain controls are usually labeled in dB. In my example, it is easier to take the measured voltage input voltage (5v) and subtract the required input voltage (1.25v). In this case you are changing voltage by 3.75 volts. If you use a Voltage to Decibel calculator, you will find that 3.75 equal 11.5 dB. Turn down the gain control by 12 dB and you will be at the correct setting. You can also use the Crown Audio db Voltage Ratio Calculator.

How does the ohm rating factor into this? An amplifier can always output the most voltage at the least resistance. With an 8 ohm load, an amp can output more voltage than a 4 or 2 ohm load. The more resistance there is, the less efficient the output. Regardless of the ohm load, if the amp is spec'd for 1.25 Vrms for maximum rated voltage then it can never output more voltage than its maximum rating.

JL Audio has a School of Sound: Short Course in Audio PDF that is very helpful to read. On page 42 it shows a 9 step procedure for setting proper gain levels using a voltmeter. It is intended for car audio, but the principles are the same.

Extra info:
Some amps show their Output Gain Stage as a multiplication factor (gain factor) and some as a decibel increase. The CV-5000 shows 36 db. Other amps might show 30x. Use these formulas to convert voltage gain expressed as a multiplication factor to voltage gain expressed in dB and vice versa:

Gain (dB) = 10 * log (Gain)

Gain Factor = ANTILOG10 ( Gain in dB / 20 ) [i.e. ANTILOG10 ( 36 / 20 ) = ?

The CV-5000 is rated at 1.42 Vrms sensitivity and 36 dB of gain.
What is its gain factor? Hint: Antilog10 is the 10x button on the Windows Scientific Calculator
What is its maximum output voltage?

You can read more here: All About Gain

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post #128 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

An amps doesn't "put out watts." It only produces voltage. The wattage is always calculated for a certain ohm by using the formula P = E 2 / R.

P=Power (watts)
E=Electrical Potential (voltage)
R=Resistance (Ohms)

If you look at the Measuring Amplifiers thread that is stickied in the DIY forum, you will see only output voltage being measured, not watts.

If an amp is spec'd for 1.25 Vrms, then that means that it takes 1.25 volts of input with the gain at maximum for the amp to output its maximum voltage. You can input more voltage, but must reduce the gain so the math is the same in the end. Trying to increase the output voltage beyond its max is what causes clipping. For example, with 32x of gain you get this:
1.25v x 1 (Gain Control) x 32 (Output Gain stage) = 40
Remember that the Output Gain Stage varies from amp to amp, but is always a fixed number.

If your input voltage maximum is 5 volts (measured with a volt meter), then where do you put the gain control?
5v x Gain x 32 = 40
Gain=40/(5x32)
Gain=.25
5v x .25 x 32 =40 So you end up with the same maximum output voltage, but have had to reduce the gain control.

A number like .25 isn't very helpful for reducing the gain control. Gain controls are usually labeled in dB. In my example, it is easier to take the measured voltage input voltage (5v) and subtract the required input voltage (1.25v). In this case you are changing voltage by 3.75 volts. If you use a Voltage to Decibel calculator, you will find that 3.75 equal 11.5 dB. Turn down the gain control by 12 dB and you will be at the correct setting. You can also use the Crown Audio db Voltage Ratio Calculator.

How does the ohm rating factor into this? An amplifier can always output the most voltage at the least resistance. With an 8 ohm load, an amp can output more voltage than a 4 or 2 ohm load. The more resistance there is, the less efficient the output. Regardless of the ohm load, if the amp is spec'd for 1.25 Vrms for maximum rated voltage then it can never output more voltage than its maximum rating.

JL Audio has a School of Sound: Short Course in Audio PDF that is very helpful to read. On page 42 it shows a 9 step procedure for setting proper gain levels using a voltmeter. It is intended for car audio, but the principles are the same.

Extra info:
Some amps show their Output Gain Stage as a multiplication factor (gain factor) and some as a decibel increase. The CV-5000 shows 36 db. Other amps might show 30x. Use these formulas to convert voltage gain expressed as a multiplication factor to voltage gain expressed in dB and vice versa:

Gain (dB) = 10 * log (Gain)

Gain Factor = ANTILOG10 ( Gain in dB / 20 ) [i.e. ANTILOG10 ( 36 / 20 ) = ?

The CV-5000 is rated at 1.42 Vrms sensitivity and 36 dB of gain.
What is its gain factor? Hint: Antilog10 is the 10x button on the Windows Scientific Calculator
What is its maximum output voltage?

You can read more here: All About Gain

throwing all the numbers you gave into the equations you gave I came up with

gain factor of about 63
max voltage of about 89.....

but I didn't read any more about it just simple substitution.

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post #129 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

A scene that is clipped at the source indicates that the clipping was done to increase the volume.

I wouldn't think so; more likely the recorder was asleep at the wheel/didn't have a handle on the equipment's limits.

Noah
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post #130 of 146 Old 02-19-2014, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I wouldn't think so; more likely the recorder was asleep at the wheel/didn't have a handle on the equipment's limits.

*nods head*

Or it was a conversion from an old film and the source wasn't great and had dynamic problems.....
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post #131 of 146 Old 02-24-2014, 05:12 AM
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This thread is making my head hurt now... lol
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post #132 of 146 Old 02-25-2014, 09:23 AM
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Carp- have you measured the sub out of your AVR with a meter? Pioneer AVRs are known to put out high voltage on the sub out. Stereodude posted about this and I have verified my volts are high as well.

FWIW- On the Peavey amps, the clip (ddt) lights indicate an input voltage that is too high.
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post #133 of 146 Old 02-25-2014, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Carp- have you measured the sub out of your AVR with a meter? Pioneer AVRs are known to put out high voltage on the sub out. Stereodude posted about this and I have verified my volts are high as well.

FWIW- On the Peavey amps, the clip (ddt) lights indicate an input voltage that is too high.


No I don't have a meter. That's interesting that Pioneer is known to be high, my signal seems very weak. I have to turn up the gains on the amp MUCH higher than I did when I had and Onkyo 818 in my room. Only 2 clicks left on the CV 5000. I like to use -10 on the sub trim to equal flat with the speakers.
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post #134 of 146 Old 02-25-2014, 11:49 AM
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Onkyo is supposed to be hot too.

I was curious if you had any volt numbers. I read you were actually having concerns over the low voltage output and that contradicts everything I've read (about the Pioneers) when I was trying to understand output voltage and proper gain setup in my signal chain, which was made extra difficult thanks to the mini-dsp.

Stereodude has actually posted scope graphs and a lot of other real good data. If you're interested I have some of it easily accessible. But it kind of gets into minidsp stuff and I know a lot of folks are sick of hearing about that.

I was led here to this thread from the powering on pro-amps with relay thread. It's well known that The Art of Flight song we all know and love is very demanding. I've discussed this fact before the relay issues and now because of the relay issues I'm having.

My amp does not shut off with that material, but it's the only material (that I have an have thrown at my amp) that sends the 7500 into turbo fan mode. Still, I can play it over and over and over and not shut down.

I'd be curious to see what happens if you take the mini-dsp out of the chain and play that track again using the inuke. Although, according to my numbers if your Pioneer is anything like mine in terms of sub out volts you should not be clipping the mini-dsp at a -10 sub out and up to ~+1 - +1.5 AVR volume setting.

It would still be interesting to see if your inuke stays on playing Art of Flight without the mini in the chain.

If the inuke is properly setup without the mini-dsp in the chain, and still shuts down, I don't know what that would mean short of the inuke can't handle it and the Peavey can.

Maybe everyone with all their different amps should play Art of Flight at reference and see what happens. tongue.gif
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post #135 of 146 Old 02-25-2014, 12:11 PM
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Here is the Deadmau 5 song from Art of Flight before it was edited for the movie. I haven't had a chance to play it yet. I know I downloaded an MP4 of the scene from the movie and it was dog crap.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0yhwl34sk12itfg/deadmau5%20-%20Ghosts%20n%20Stuff.mp3
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Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Here is the Deadmau 5 song from Art of Flight before it was edited for the movie. I haven't had a chance to play it yet. I know I downloaded an MP4 of the scene from the movie and it was dog crap.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0yhwl34sk12itfg/deadmau5%20-%20Ghosts%20n%20Stuff.mp3

The mixing for the movie is very different, we compared at one of the NE g2g's late at night.... just didn't have the good mixed sound to it.... but the one on the movie has clipping (or peaks exactly at 0db) in the recording....
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post #137 of 146 Old 02-25-2014, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rush2049 View Post

The mixing for the movie is very different, we compared at one of the NE g2g's late at night.... just didn't have the good mixed sound to it.... but the one on the movie has clipping (or peaks exactly at 0db) in the recording....

Curious what you compared? The original to the edited movie version?

Is there something wrong with Art of Flight version that has been proven, or is it just proven that it is really hard on ones system?
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post #138 of 146 Old 02-25-2014, 01:02 PM
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Curious what you compared? The original to the edited movie version?

Is there something wrong with Art of Flight version that has been proven, or is it just proven that it is really hard on ones system?

When you extract the audio from the bluray and look at the waveforms the peaks hit 0dB (I forget if it goes over, or is just exactly at 0). (It is considered good practice in the mixing/mastering world to stay 0.3dB below maximum to aid with the prevention of clipping and insure good dynamic structure to your piece)

Going to 0, or even over (if your audio format supports recording that) is not bad, if you did it on purpose. Generally though it isn't good practice and can do undesirable things. In the avenue of what we are talking about here (voltage in/out of devices) If you were on the upper threshold for voltage, content that goes to 0dB instead of .3 or lower as its max might push you over the edge.

What I am saying is its not good content to use for this type of testing.

Another really good example of bad clipping in the recording is the crash scene from Flight of the Phoenix. The waveforms in that are completely chopped off by going over 0dB.
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post #139 of 146 Old 02-25-2014, 01:41 PM
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Interesting. Someone in this thread said this was the best material for testing situations like this as it pushes ones system to the limits. Obviously whatever a persons take is on using this material to test ones system we know the inuke cant hang.
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post #140 of 146 Old 02-25-2014, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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PDX, thanks for the info as far as more testing I plan on it eventually. Things are pretty crazy around here so I may not get to it for awhile. I also am curious what will happen without the mini, although there is another important variable at play - with the mini I have an L/T which would be much more demanding on the amps so even if the inuke doesn't shut down as quickly it could just be because it's not being asked to put out as much power down low.

I suppose I could answer that question by turning off any eq or LT on the mini and comparing that to taking the mini out of the chain?
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post #141 of 146 Old 02-25-2014, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

PDX, thanks for the info as far as more testing I plan on it eventually. Things are pretty crazy around here so I may not get to it for awhile. I also am curious what will happen without the mini, although there is another important variable at play - with the mini I have an L/T which would be much more demanding on the amps so even if the inuke doesn't shut down as quickly it could just be because it's not being asked to put out as much power down low.

I suppose I could answer that question by turning off any eq or LT on the mini and comparing that to taking the mini out of the chain?

How much boost are you applying with the L/T? I've not studied those much so I'm not familiar with how they work in relation to boost.

I ask because there is a limit to the boost one can apply withe mini-dsp, and that limit is lowered if you're already past a certain threshold with signal voltage going to the mini.
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From what I can tell the cv-5000 can run on a 240v circuit.. The IEC connector is only rated for 16amps but bursting on a 20amp 240v circuit should work. What I can't find any info on is whether the power supply is auto ranging(Can it just be plugged into a 240v source as is)

20amps 240v = 4800 watts right?

I don't have the guts to try it. Carp?

Think we could get John Playerson to be the crash test dummy?
I might of missed this thread way back lol. Guess you should have given me an invite.
It would be an interesting comparison to see 8 subwoofers powered by 4 of my CV 5000 vs One cv 5000 powering 8 woofers. As you know i like my loads 8 ohms. I think I could even take on luke when he finishes hooking up 8 drivers to his Speaker power lol.

Technically , every time i have measured a dual 4 ohm coil in series it has come up as 10 ohms not 8. This happened for all brands of 15s i use, unless it is my multimeter, but i have used two, one analogue and one digital. The 4 tens i have per channel also come up as 10 ohms per side.

All the CVs have dual primarys so they can be rewired to run 240volt.

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are
least under rated if at all.

Last edited by johnplayerson; Today at 08:48 PM.
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I got a call back from the tech at Gibson Pro Audio(Cerwin-Vega) after he spoke with the engineers. The SMPS/power supply in the CV-5000 is not auto ranging so it can not be hooked up to 240V service. He said I could rewire the power supply internal connection for 240V but didn't have the specifics.

30amp 120V is the recomended connection from Gibson Pro Audio(Cerwin-Vega)

Carp sorry for the off topic in your thread. I just wanted to follow-up on the resolution.
You take the primarys and wire them in series to get 240v. They are currently run in parallel for 110 /120,

All other CV amps, B52 us 6000. HPA 5000, AA 6001 plus, Samson SX, etc can be rewired for 240 volt. Since all these amps are really HPA product, you are better off contacting meade design.

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are
least under rated if at all.
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
dynamic EQ carp

mmmmm

dynamic EQ...




The iNuke 12,000 is a coming. That'll destroy your 5000 watt Cerwin Vega, and it supports 2 ohm stereo. Course you'll need a new power line run.

http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-NU12000DSP-2000-Watt-Power-Amplifier/dp/B00HRKWS0Q/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1392325649&sr=8-3&keywords=inuke+nu12000dsp

Start saving your pennies.
The inukes have a good name, because they will blow up in an explosion way before the cv 5000 will, based on build quality. With the crest CA series now discontinued, as well as the AA and b52, The vega unit is the last unit of its kind. Dont forget the power transformer is a full 2500 va, not a scaled down toroidal like most others that were in its class.
Hence in the long run your saving with the CVS

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are
least under rated if at all.
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Well what you would do is now look at 1,000-1,200 per driver as an appreciable goal to shoot for as an "upgrade". Any less then whats the point?

Make sense?
I think that makes great sense, especially seeing as most good subs are 1000 nominal and
2000 max.

What looks interesting to me is the new Behinger km 1700, 500 rms and 1500 bridged to 8 ohms. 8 of those amps is only 1600 at 200 each, and oh my god they are toroidal and class h.

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are
least under rated if at all.
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First of all, tranformers gots polarities. See those dots on the transformer schematic? All the leads with dots go positive (and negative, in turn) together.

Each winding used as a primary needs to be driven with its rated voltage. In the case of the dual 115V ones, you connect dot to dot, non-dot to non-dot, effectively paralleling the primaries.

If you get one winding reversed, you will see major smoke when you power it.

The transformer's rating is based on having enough amperes flowing into the core so the secondaries can take their designed current out. Dual primaries are made half the otherwise-required wire size each, so to get full power out, you must have the designed current flowing in each primary winding. You do this by paralleling for 115, or series for 230. Both situations give you equal current in each winding, and contribute each primary's fair share of ampere-turns to the M-field inside.

If you series two windings, you must connect a dot to a non-dot, and then put voltage across the series setup. again, if you connect it backwards, major smoke pours out, and the transformer is itself tranformed into a Darkness Emitting Diode (also called a DED).

Credit to RG, at stompboxes

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are
least under rated if at all.
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