Building a cost-effective ~10Hz sub for a bigger room. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 02-11-2014, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi, I produce bass-oriented dance music and am looking for build a sub that can decently represent bass down to ~10Hz in a fairly long room (2 or three small rooms in a row)... I understand this will have to be relatively powerful, but I am not very well versed in subs...

 

I am currently using two self-powered bookshelf speakers (Kanto YUMI) that I got cheap from a friend and they have a sub out... but I'm sure if they'll be able to power the type of sub I am looking for.

 

What are my options?

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post #2 of 47 Old 02-11-2014, 07:32 PM
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10hz is lower than almost anything you'll have in music, including dance music. If you want more SPL, you'll need to sacrifice extension. You might want to take a look at the gjallerhorn or just build a large ported box with a 15-20hz tune and some large drivers (18" and above).

It all depends on how loud you want to go. If you want extension down to 10hz, you're best just building a sealed box with a pair of 18s.
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post #3 of 47 Old 02-11-2014, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I simply need to be able to hear/feel the effect of super low frequencies at reasonable listening levels, they don't need to be particularly loud or clean.

 

If I were to build a box with 18's, what drivers would you suggest?

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post #4 of 47 Old 02-11-2014, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allthetime View Post

I simply need to be able to hear/feel the effect of super low frequencies at reasonable listening levels, they don't need to be particularly loud or clean.

If I were to build a box with 18's, what drivers would you suggest?

SI 18 or daytons are your budget drivers.
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post #5 of 47 Old 02-11-2014, 07:55 PM
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When you are looking to play really low, it comes down to your budget and how large you can accommodate. If you are looking for 10hz, you are going sealed. In this realm, it's a volume displacement game. You can do it with very long throw drivers or larger # of drivers. Get 4 to 8 18"s in large sealed boxes and you get 10hz thumping pretty good.
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post #6 of 47 Old 02-11-2014, 08:05 PM
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I don't know where you grabbed 10hz from, but I doubt anything you're producing or listening to is using anything that low. You'd be pretty safe at 20hz covering all your low bass.
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post #7 of 47 Old 02-11-2014, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I just want to have all my basses covered.. haha

 

10 Hz does exist in some music and can be reached by large systems I have used.

 

I know it is rare, but I would like to have the option if it is possible for a non-ridiculous price.

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post #8 of 47 Old 02-11-2014, 08:28 PM
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"Hi, I produce bass-oriented dance music and am looking for build a sub that can decently represent bass down to ~10Hz in a fairly long room (2 or three small rooms in a row)... I understand this will have to be relatively powerful, but I am not very well versed in subs..."

dance music is only good loud. :-)

big rooms like that have minimal room gain, so it is going to have to be mostly speaker.

low frequencies are more difficult to sense than high frequencies. this is shown in the equal loudness contour here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

here is the response of two 18" driver configurations using the b&c 18ps76 (the kind of driver you might find in a decent p.a. cab).

one is 6 cubic feet tuned to 38hz. the other is 12 cubic feet tuned to 10hz.

now that is for 1 cab each. every time that you double cabs (and power), you get about +6db. so with the higher tuned cab, two cabs will give about 128db from about 38hz up. that is what you are used to hearing.

the other thing would require about 32 cabs to get the same spl level all the way down to 10hz. if that seems ridiculous, it is, which is of course why nobody tunes cabs that low for dance. a much better plan would be to tune the cabs for about 27hz or so. at least that way you have a shot at filling the largish room with dance level music.


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post #9 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allthetime View Post

I just want to have all my basses covered.. haha

10 Hz does exist in some music and can be reached by large systems I have used.

I know it is rare, but I would like to have the option if it is possible for a non-ridiculous price.

I've been into the electronic scene for years and even ran one of the first internet radio stations which only played that. I've yet to encounter something with 10hz content. It's not something you come close to hearing, you can only feel it as pressure. No clubs or other venues have a sound system that will reproduce 10hz, because doing so gives up too much output potential and takes way too much power.

Again, just my $0.02. If you really want to go for 10hz, by all means, but for music it is silly.
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post #10 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 02:14 AM
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Look man, I'm not gonna lie, I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground compared to some of the guys here. I do know this: budget friendly, 10 hz, and large room do not belong in the same sentence. The only thing I can even think of that comes remotely close (@ about 2 grand if I recall) is a single ported re xxx custom build tuned to 12 hz on data bass. You should probably re-evaluate your expectations.

Also, let's just say I ate some drugs a few times and I can't ever recall the bass extension of any rave I ever went to. I do remember some awesome d.j.'s though, and I will guarantee none of them came close to 10 hz.
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post #11 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

I've been into the electronic scene for years and even ran one of the first internet radio stations which only played that. I've yet to encounter something with 10hz content. .
+1. Getting to 10Hz requires a combination of a lot of speakers and a smallish room. You can find lots of speakers used in some pro setups, but the rooms they're used in aren't small. I recently did a consult at a new club that the owner outfitted with twelve horn loaded subs loaded with two LAB12 each. Called 'Therapy' in Providence RI, it instantly was proclaimed as having the best sound system in New England by the DJs working there. It's easily capable of 140dB at 25Hz in the middle of the room, but they hold it to around 120 eek.gif.
Set up as the DJs like it maximum output is between 40 and 70Hz. Output at 20Hz is the same with the system off as it is with it on, 50-55dB, as that 20Hz content is traffic noise from the surrounding highways.

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post #12 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 09:12 AM
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+4 I doubt 10hz is what you are really looking for. Its unremarkable except for certain movie and effect type stuff like pressurization otherwise its a largely wasted effort except for the ones chasing the 5%. I agree with Bill. If your intended use is as stated what you are looking for is concentrated above 30hz or higher. The bass that's really impressive that makes heart skip is like Bill suggests
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post #13 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 09:31 AM
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Hi, I would gratefully appreciate a good tune that would occasionaly dip into the negative 20's.  Modern music lacks them low's. Equipment that people own is getting better, Hifi, Pc or car! Hip hop/ Rap from the likes of Young Jeezy or Lil Wayne is just single notes that they like to announce with phrases like, "watch you EFFING woofers, its going to drop!" or something like that! Boring! No, my system will have a go at playing 10hz, I got 2x15" in the ceiling on I.B. duty, 450 w rms at 4ohms, haven't measured yet, work in progress, but yeah, give us some CHOONES to 10hz please, OP please. Better than having to watch movies just to get things going low ;-)

 

Thanks

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post #14 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 09:37 AM
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Hi, I would gratefully appreciate a good tune that would occasionaly dip into the negative 20's.  Modern music lacks them low's. Equipment that people own is getting better, Hifi, Pc or car! Hip hop/ Rap from the likes of Young Jeezy or Lil Wayne is just single notes that they like to announce with phrases like, "watch you EFFING woofers, its going to drop!" or something like that! Boring! No, my system will have a go at playing 10hz, I got 2x15" in the ceiling on I.B. duty, 450 w rms at 4ohms, haven't measured yet, work in progress, but yeah, give us some CHOONES to 10hz please, OP please. Better than having to watch movies just to get things going low ;-)

Thanks
Mike

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post #15 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 09:47 AM
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post #16 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allthetime View Post

I just want to have all my basses covered.. haha

10 Hz does exist in some music and can be reached by large systems I have used.

I know it is rare, but I would like to have the option if it is possible for a non-ridiculous price.

Here's how you do it.

1) Buy an old Honda CRX.
2) Park said old Honda CRX in your longish room, and maybe replace the driver's seat with a more comfortable listening chair.
3) Wall off the hatch/trunk area.
4) Put as big a woofer as you can fit on the walll.
5) Chase and fix rattles.
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post #17 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 10:56 AM
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+1, +1 again.


Forget about the 10Hz content.

Even if it were in about 2% of the music you listen to, you have never heard it. It is simply not audible, if you did hear it, it was all distortion, hence the audibility.
Second, the human ear is much less sensitive to the lowest octaves. So, it takes a tremendous amount of resources to produce that at the levels you are expecting.
20Hz is below 95+ % of any musical content. The strong bass in the dance/rap, etc is more like in the 30-50 Hz range. Focus your efforts there and you will be a happy camper.

Cost effective and 10Hz/large room are antonyms.
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post #18 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 11:04 AM
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Cost effective and 10Hz/large room are antonyms.

Well... not really. Snag up as many SI 18HT's as possible and build clones of my LLT's.


Though the issue is this guy really doesn't want or need 10hz for what he is doing..... he needs skull crushing 40hz and up.
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My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #19 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 11:08 AM
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Well... not really. Snag up as many SI 18HT's as possible and build clones of my LLT's.


Though the issue is this guy really doesn't want or need 10hz for what he is doing..... he needs skull crushing 40hz and up.

I guess it depends on what cost effective means as I have not seen a budget figure.
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post #20 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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What I meant by cost effective is what can produce desired results for the cheapest price possible.

 

I don't have a budget figure... the dream of 10 Hz has become more of a curiosity now after watching this thread play out. I was imagining massive upward and downward swoops in and out of audibility, transferring from something you hear into something you can only feel blasting cool air at you from a 100,000 watt system in the forest... slightly detuned unisons wobbling away, pushing people around. A niche, to say the least.

 

I suppose there's not much point trying to recreate it in a bedroom.

 

But I have learned quite a bit about bass and woofers from this thread and have a much better idea of what I need... thanks everyone!

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post #21 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 05:11 PM
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there is nary a 100k watt system in the whole country that goes below 25hz (id be surpised if any big festival rigs had a hipass lower than 25hz).

Main reason there is no content down to 10hz (other than the extreme difficulty in using said frequencies musicaly) is because the track would NEVER SELL, or get any play, because it will only be reproduced on 1/1000 systems, and the extremely hot content below even 30hz is just goin to rob headroom from the main bassline (your main bassline will be quiet because you are wasting so much energy down low thats being chopped off as soon as it leaves the mixer).
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post #22 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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But it is possible.

 

It's not about hearing as much as feeling. It's not about selling a track as much as producing an experience that cannot be re-created elsewhere.

 

It doesn't necessarily have to be 'dance' music. It can just be bass music.

 

And what if there is nothing to rob because all the energy is simply going towards low frequencies?

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post #23 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 05:54 PM
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I think the point most people are trying to make OP, is that what you're chasing, is out of your price range so no one wants to even bother telling you what you should get to actually complete it. 10 Hz at an audible level in a large room doesn't get to be used in the same sentence as cost effective. It just doesn't. Pick one. You either want 10 Hz, or you want cost effective.
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post #24 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I know, sorry, I was just enjoying speaking theoretically on the subject.

 

If I had the money to burn this is something I would pursue.

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post #25 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 06:19 PM
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I think the kind of music the OP is referring to is not dance music, per se, but rather, a live DJ doing a dubstep type of show at a dance club or rave. I must admit that I am not really that big a fan of this type of music, but I do know that since it is all computer/software generated that it is entirely possible, and probable that you could get some 10hz content.

OP, correct me if I am wrong on this!

If it were me, and I were going to attempt to get as low as possible for this type of music experience in various clubs or venues, I would contact Bill F. and have him design or build some big, low tuned horn loaded cabinets utilizing a driver that is well suited for this application, and although I can not suggest a particular driver, or enclosure, that is what I would do. Lots of "dub step" style DJ's out there, but very few have a well designed horn loaded subwoofer setup that would hang with something like what Bill could design up for you. That would probably not cost all that much considering the performance you would be getting, and you would be the hottest dub step DJ in your area due to the awesome sound setup that you are running!
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post #26 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allthetime View Post

Hi, I produce bass-oriented dance music and am looking for build a sub that can decently represent bass down to ~10Hz in a fairly long room (2 or three small rooms in a row)... I understand this will have to be relatively powerful, but I am not very well versed in subs...

allthetime: Give us ten examples of the deepest songs you know of, and we will use our spectrum analyzers to tell you how low it actually is...

Most dance music is 30 to 200hz.

Subwoofers that are good at doing 10hz, suck at >40hz.
Subwoofers that are good at doing >40hz, suck at 10hz.

Therefore you need to build two different types of subwoofers.

For dance-music you'll want as many of these as you can afford, in 30hz ported box(es): http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pa465s-8-18-pro-subwoofer-4-vc-8-ohm--295-042
For the 10hz stuff you'll want as many of these as you can afford in a IB or box(es) ported at 10hz (or as low as you can make it): http://store.ficaraudio.com/ib318/

Also you will need to buy one of these for each pair of subwoofers you buy: http://www.parts-express.com/behringer-nu3000dsp-inuke-3000-watt-power-amplifier-with-dsp--248-6706

Four nu3000dsp's and 8 Dayton PA-18's will blow your mind for dance music, I guarantee it!!! (I use almost exactly that and it kicks butt.)
(For 10hz... you can NEVER have too much, you'll need about 140db @ 10hz, you can use box-modeling software to tell you how many it will take, it will be a LOT, i.e EXPENSIVE!!!!! i.e not for people with low budgets, even with budget amps and woofers)
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post #27 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 07:09 PM
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Here is what one nu3000DSP and quad Dayton PA-18's in a 12cuft sealed box, and two FP14k's clones and quad TC LMS-18's in a 16cuft sealed box does, this gives a frequency response that is pleasing to the ear:

The Dayton's are doing >40 to 1500hz, the TC's are doing everything <40hz.


Left side of the room, right side of the room, middle of the room.

$1000 for >40hz.
$6000 for <40hz
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post #28 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 09:15 PM
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Here is 7hz@96db, 16hz@112db, 31hz@125db (notice where the meter is placed) LOL...

NASA-Mode... of course wink.gif

As you can see, harmonic distortion products are very low.
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post #29 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allthetime View Post

But it is possible.

It's not about hearing as much as feeling. It's not about selling a track as much as producing an experience that cannot be re-created elsewhere.

It doesn't necessarily have to be 'dance' music. It can just be bass music.

And what if there is nothing to rob because all the energy is simply going towards low frequencies?

While I appreciate this thought, am not sure what the bassiest music I've heard is at range-wise but assume its more like what others are saying, maybe a little down low around 20 but mostly 30 and above. That said, there are a few people here who do have 10hz capable systems but they, even here, are a very select bunch. 10 Hz is more LFE/ULF stuff in movies, not sure people moving around will feel it as much as those sitting? I do like some of Dymons and Bill Laswell's stuff for bassy music, but have no real idea of how low it goes as have not measured at all....so like someone asked post up some examples of what you feel is 10hz type content and let some of those around here measure and post graphs that have suitable systems....

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post #30 of 47 Old 02-12-2014, 09:27 PM
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I listen to lots of EDM, and I'd way much rather have a sub(s) that rapes >25Hz than one that dribbles >10hz.
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