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post #271 of 327 Old 03-13-2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Angle them to that wider position you like but use a PL2 Music mode for that center fill. Plus the extra surround envelopment is nice.
Sometimes I'll use a matrix that leaves the mains the same with no center fill but ambiance goes to the surrounds. The walls just seem to disappear and the soundstage stays perfect. cool.gif
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post #272 of 327 Old 03-13-2014, 03:28 PM
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There are options on nearly every AVR/prepro with PL2 that allows you to change the settings of various things in the music mode.

There is a sliding scale for how much or little of a 'center fill' there is...

There is a sliding scale for how much stuff wraps from front to back...

You can change all these things so if you can have it your way. smile.gif In my room I could just mute or turn off the center channel's DCX.

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post #273 of 327 Old 03-13-2014, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

No way of knowing how much, but with all that displacement with the (8)18"s flanking the centered JBLs, I'd bet the JBLs are measurably affecting the response.

I wonder how much voltage you could impart across the JBLs terminals if any, or how energy is damped resonating into the tuned enclosure ... hmmm

There right up there next, and in between them.

Yep, Right now I haven't got them into the mix still, but I also wonder what, if anything I am losing through the cabs. Meshing them properly will be important, and will take some time. Getting those in first and the shadow second, I hope they all play nicely together. Looking at the response, the raw un-eq'd looks similar to what it did before I had jbl's in there, but that doesn't mean there is slight detrimental effects going on in places.

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post #274 of 327 Old 03-13-2014, 05:01 PM
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The room looks incredible Brandon, great work man! cool.gif Looking at the pic of the front stage one word jumps in my head - seamless. I imagine movies that pan from left to right or vice/versa and I'm sure it sounds like one great big f-ing speaker - just like Scott's setup.



Do you have before and after measurements with the front wall treatment? I'm guessing not, because it looks like you made all the changes at once.

As far as the 2 channel vs PL2 goes, I prefer 2 channel easily. I do sometimes (ha, like right now) like to set it to PL2 music with center width at 7 which means nothing comes out of the center channel, but the surrounds are still on like what DD and Scott were talking about. It's nice to do that sometimes for variety but 2 channel is where it's at. smile.gif

Are you still at 14 feet back from the front wall? Did you ever experiment with moving that up? I probably asked you that already but I can't remember what you said.
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post #275 of 327 Old 03-13-2014, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks man! I don't have any before-after measurements, but from what I can tell listening, it is substantial what the treatments did. the Danley's haven't moved much from where they were, but I will see if I can find another FRD file to overlay the responses.

I did move the front row up a tad bit, I will measure and find out about how far I am off now.

I will give the pl2 a shot a little bit tonight and see what I think with the center level at 7 smile.gif

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post #276 of 327 Old 03-13-2014, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Dudes, just spent a little time plumb-bobbing the locations of everything in the theater. Made some small adjustments and got everything within at most a half inch accuracy to the MLP. It sounds FANTASTIC!!!! I think my right ear plays tricks on me where even though the image is dead on center, coming straight from the compression driver on the sh69 in the middle, I still get more content coming to me from the left than the right. Do people usually mix a little more into the left? I have noticed it on a lot of rock songs. Not at all on orchestral or other genres, but more prominently on anything rock. MAN, I have everything so dialed in right now though, I just want to spend the weekend listening, but alas, I am celebrating my relinquishment of polygamy this weekend so that should be a pretty fun time anyways. Probably the only thing I would rather do that listen to the system all weekend.

Carp, I measured again and now I am at about 13 feet from the front wall, which is a shade better but I can't go any closer unless for "researching" purposes as it is too close to the 138" screen that is now 4 feet off the front wall. 9 feet from a screen that size is a shade too close even for me Haha.

Didn't get to mess around at all with pl2 as I was too engulfed in excellence in straight stereo. My plans when I get home and sober up after a day or two is to start taking measurements of the different XO points I can use. The 50's according to the initial sweeps are easy down to 50hz and at this point I am crossing at 100hz, so I have a little playing to do.

Kevin, I walked up a couple times to the 2242's while I had the system bumping pretty good at -15 with a solid bass boost and they were moving enough that I had to check the amp to make sure they weren't on!!! As efficient as they are in that cab, I definitely think they are contributing in some way to the overall response, even off. Only thing now I guess is to get them turned on and see if things improve over leaving them off. It will be interesting to run sweeps with them on vs off at the same level.

So the to-do list is:

1/2- Get all subs on the DCX
1- Check 2242's effect on vs. off
2- Try out different XO points on the SH50's
3- Run audyssey and see what that does to everything
4- Double check distances measured by Audyssey and do the sub distance tweek
5- Moar sweeps
6- Move Projector back
7- Suggestions anyone? What do you want to see on a graph?

Carp don't ask me to remove the linacoustic, that itchy-ness ain't going down smile.gif

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post #277 of 327 Old 03-13-2014, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Just for a fun comparison, here is my response right now in blue vs the response the sm60f's had in Rilla's space at the g2g. Little cleaner here and there with the sh50's, but pretty similar. I am honestly trying to shoot for about dead middle between these two graphs for the sub 300hz content. Slightly less rise than I have now, but this is an excellent situation to be in as previously, I had NONE, and have always wanted it, so I didn't have to start artificially boosting that area to achieve what I wanted.




Just goes to show how impressive both spaces are to get that close of a response smile.gif I still have something that I really like about Rilla's room in the lower octaves but just listening to that boz scaggs track, I think I finally found it in my theater! Now just to get that ULF up just a shade (Enter the Shadow)

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post #278 of 327 Old 03-13-2014, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I am celebrating my relinquishment of polygamy this weekend so that should be a pretty fun time anyways.

Say what? eek.gifconfused.gif

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post #279 of 327 Old 03-13-2014, 10:29 PM
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Say what? eek.gifconfused.gif

getting hitched? bachelor party?
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post #280 of 327 Old 03-14-2014, 03:45 AM
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"I am celebrating my relinquishment of polygamy this weekend so that should be a pretty fun time anyways." beastaudio

"Say what?" jbrown15



I'm with you, jbrown.
Maybe beast went to Vegas without realizing it and is now bumping off all the ladies he drunkenly got hitched to...except for one?

lol
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post #281 of 327 Old 03-14-2014, 06:23 AM
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Beast, in regards to your comment of more material coming from the left: could some of that have to do with the wall on the left and reflection compared to the opening on the right side of your room?
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post #282 of 327 Old 03-14-2014, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Dudes, just spent a little time plumb-bobbing the locations of everything in the theater. Made some small adjustments and got everything within at most a half inch accuracy to the MLP. It sounds FANTASTIC!!!!

Doing the most! Nice, precise positioning can impact the imaging.



Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I think my right ear plays tricks on me where even though the image is dead on center, coming straight from the compression driver on the sh69 in the middle, I still get more content coming to me from the left than the right. Do people usually mix a little more into the left? I have noticed it on a lot of rock songs. Not at all on orchestral or other genres, but more prominently on anything rock.

Interesting, could be the slight L-R width asymmetry, ... but it could be a number of things (your hearing, the material, the room).
You'd need to use some monaural material or pink noise, to determine for sure. We possess 1 degree of localizing acuity in our frontal, lateral plane. So running a mono signal thru may tell you a lot.

It's possible the somewhat shorter path the direct and reflected aggregate energy takes would sum better and pull the image that direction. The law of the first wave-front, works only after a 2msec offset. If the delta is less than 2msec (about 2') then the precedent effect doesn't work. In this case summing localization occurs, and the perceived direction is just the vector sum of the two... which could explain your experience.

The short version; ... Typically the precedence effect dictates two sounds separated by at least 2msec (but not enough to cause a discreet echo maybe ~50msec), fuse together and primarily appear to come from the direction of the first arriving sound.



Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I am celebrating my relinquishment of polygamy

confused.gif



Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Kevin, I walked up a couple times to the 2242's while I had the system bumping pretty good at -15 with a solid bass boost and they were moving enough that I had to check the amp to make sure they weren't on!!! As efficient as they are in that cab, I definitely think they are contributing in some way to the overall response, even off. Only thing now I guess is to get them turned on and see if things improve over leaving them off. It will be interesting to run sweeps with them on vs off at the same level.

Well the LF energy is being damped like a bass trap, as the cabinet is a Helmholtz resonator. A vented sub is a tuned bass trap in reverse... but the driver complicates things I reckon, as it's diaphragmatically engaged by the pulsing energy too. Who knows, measurements rule.

As I mentioned in the other post ...I think it'd be cool to see how much voltage the VCs are creating ... pumping to the beat.



Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

1/2- Get all subs on the DCX
1- Check 2242's effect on vs. off
2- Try out different XO points on the SH50's
3- Run audyssey and see what that does to everything
4- Double check distances measured by Audyssey and do the sub distance tweek
5- Moar sweeps
6- Move Projector back
7- Suggestions anyone? What do you want to see on a graph?

Carp don't ask me to remove the linacoustic, that itchy-ness ain't going down smile.gif


Looks good ... all the above

Especially #4 (OmniMic is great for this too)
spend mucho time at this

#7 You've got a lot of great acoustic panels that I can see, but they are limited in the frequency range they're effecting. Do you have any bass trapping?

Brandon, love to hear this system. I'm sure the Danleys sound superb.

I love multichannel SACDs etc, but I'm a two channel guy too. I have a cheap, very barebones and simple 2 channel setup in a different room, the sound is extraordinary as long as my level expectations are kept in check redface.gif (the Catalysts can do full range too)

All the best,
Kevin

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post #283 of 327 Old 03-15-2014, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Dudes, just spent a little time plumb-bobbing the locations of everything in the theater. Made some small adjustments and got everything within at most a half inch accuracy to the MLP. It sounds FANTASTIC!!!! I think my right ear plays tricks on me where even though the image is dead on center, coming straight from the compression driver on the sh69 in the middle, I still get more content coming to me from the left than the right. Do people usually mix a little more into the left? I have noticed it on a lot of rock songs. Not at all on orchestral or other genres, but more prominently on anything rock. MAN, I have everything so dialed in right now though, I just want to spend the weekend listening, but alas, I am celebrating my relinquishment of polygamy this weekend so that should be a pretty fun time anyways. Probably the only thing I would rather do that listen to the system all weekend.

Carp, I measured again and now I am at about 13 feet from the front wall, which is a shade better but I can't go any closer unless for "researching" purposes as it is too close to the 138" screen that is now 4 feet off the front wall. 9 feet from a screen that size is a shade too close even for me Haha.

Didn't get to mess around at all with pl2 as I was too engulfed in excellence in straight stereo. My plans when I get home and sober up after a day or two is to start taking measurements of the different XO points I can use. The 50's according to the initial sweeps are easy down to 50hz and at this point I am crossing at 100hz, so I have a little playing to do.

Kevin, I walked up a couple times to the 2242's while I had the system bumping pretty good at -15 with a solid bass boost and they were moving enough that I had to check the amp to make sure they weren't on!!! As efficient as they are in that cab, I definitely think they are contributing in some way to the overall response, even off. Only thing now I guess is to get them turned on and see if things improve over leaving them off. It will be interesting to run sweeps with them on vs off at the same level.

So the to-do list is:

1/2- Get all subs on the DCX
1- Check 2242's effect on vs. off
2- Try out different XO points on the SH50's
3- Run audyssey and see what that does to everything
4- Double check distances measured by Audyssey and do the sub distance tweek
5- Moar sweeps
6- Move Projector back
7- Suggestions anyone? What do you want to see on a graph?

Carp don't ask me to remove the linacoustic, that itchy-ness ain't going down smile.gif




Interesting that you feel that more content comes from the left. I have noticed that for a LONG time in my room. A couple years ago I finally realized that my Pioneer Elite has a test tone when you go in to manually adjust MCACC for speaker distance. It does a continuous pop that moves back and forth across the soundstage as you adjust the delay to one of the LR speakers. I always settle on having the right speaker delay set for a little longer than the left. With my current speaker placement the left speaker is set for 9' 7" and the right is 9' 7.5" I have the speakers in the EXACT same position related to the side walls and front walls. That took forever. I kept measuring and slightly moving over and over again until all corners of each speaker were the exact same distance from each wall.

What is this plumb-bobbing you speak of? confused.gifredface.gif

It sounds like a term that guys that know how to build and fix sh*t are familiar with - haha, I am not one of those guys. Would that be eisier than my measure/move/measure/move/measure/move technique? biggrin.gif

Back to the soundstage thing. Even though my image is dead centered like you said about yours, I often feel like a bit more content comes from the left. It's not louder...but often I fell like I can hear the cymbals more clearly on the left side of the soundstage. This makes me think it's my hearing but I was tested recently and my hearing is very good. Not all music has this slight left thing going on, but it does happen.
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post #284 of 327 Old 03-15-2014, 09:26 AM
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"What is this plumb-bobbing you speak of?" carp

Plumb-bob is used to see if things are "plumb"...straight up and down...level in the vertical plane.

Could be as simple as suspending a small weight on a string from the ceiling and letting it hang till still. biggrin.gif
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post #285 of 327 Old 03-15-2014, 09:50 AM
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Actually a level is used to see if an item is plumb (vertical) or level (horizontal). A plumb bob is used to precisely place an item up off the floor (in this case the face of a loudspeaker), and well away from a known reference (walls, floors).

You hang the weighted string off the inside top corner of the speaker, mark the floor ... the perform the same for the other speaker. This gives you their precise position relative to one another, relative to the front wall, side wall, and ultimately relative to the L.P. (which can be plumb bobbed, and transferred to the floor too).

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post #286 of 327 Old 03-15-2014, 10:04 AM
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I see. That still doesn't make it any easier though because that doesn't take toe-in into consideration. I could have the front inside corners the same but the other corners could be off a little bit, that's why I measure all the corners of the speakers from the side walls and front walls so that toe in/speaker placement is exactly the same and then I make sure my main seating LP is exactly half way between the left and right walls. Pretty OCD I admit....smile.gif
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post #287 of 327 Old 03-15-2014, 10:11 AM
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Provided your walls are perfect...and sheet rock or wall sheathing doesn't bow even a fraction of an inch, and...or...ignore all that...no OCD episodes! biggrin.gif
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post #288 of 327 Old 03-15-2014, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
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Provided your walls are perfect...and sheet rock or wall sheathing doesn't bow even a fraction of an inch, and...or...ignore all that...no OCD episodes! biggrin.gif


Hahaha, awww crap. You can't go and say something like that.... tongue.gif

That seriously never occurred to me. mad.gifsmile.gif
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post #289 of 327 Old 03-15-2014, 11:43 AM
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I didn't mention the toe angle, but yes... all relavent aspects would be included. And as I mentioned, its all ultimately referenced to the LP (as mentioned, can't count on the walls).

Plumb bob use would be more for permanent install than this application, but I do appreciate how ate up it is!

They make lasers for loudspeaker alignment/aiming. I use a tape measure, combined with some small diameter Kevlar rope or Kevlar tape (used like string, but no stretch), both of which I've got a lot of. The small diameter Kevlar rope is what is used NFL stadiums to suspend the cable cam/scam above the crowd and above the players. Very small, very light, yet phenomenally strong. Its a bit overkill for this application, but what the heck I've got a lot of it. I've pulled downed trees with it with my truck ... stuff's amazing... but not as amazing as Beast's system ...

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post #290 of 327 Old 03-15-2014, 12:19 PM
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post #291 of 327 Old 03-18-2014, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok dudes, in response to the whole Polygamy thing, total joke..... Yes at one point I had a whole phalanx of women ready for me to "put a ring on it" and the thought crossed my mind, but alas, the one I finally decided upon first, isn't the biggest fan of this idea, so yes, I must not consider this as a possibility anymore and spent the weekend in celebration of the best decision I ever made.

My brain even at this point is still at only around %30, I just wanted to make sure you all knew I wasn't dead, and that I will be getting to the more technical stuff over the next day or two.... I lterally can't type still, so I will start catching up on some other threads I lurk around on, and get to this one a bit later. smile.gif

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post #292 of 327 Old 03-18-2014, 08:15 AM
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Heheh.

I knew what you meant. wink.gif

Congrats man. smile.gif

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post #293 of 327 Old 03-18-2014, 08:27 AM
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Congrats, beast...I guess...will check back with you on this 6 or 7 years. biggrin.gif


Scott....new avatar, eh?
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post #294 of 327 Old 03-18-2014, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
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Ok dudes, in response to the whole Polygamy thing, total joke..... Yes at one point I had a whole phalanx of women ready for me to "put a ring on it" and the thought crossed my mind, but alas, the one I finally decided upon first, isn't the biggest fan of this idea, so yes, I must not consider this as a possibility anymore and spent the weekend in celebration of the best decision I ever made.

My brain even at this point is still at only around %30, I just wanted to make sure you all knew I wasn't dead, and that I will be getting to the more technical stuff over the next day or two.... I lterally can't type still, so I will start catching up on some other threads I lurk around on, and get to this one a bit later. smile.gif

I'm still confused. frown.gif

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post #295 of 327 Old 03-18-2014, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

I'm still confused. frown.gif

Bachelor party is my guess.

Bro is getting hitched! biggrin.gif

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post #296 of 327 Old 03-18-2014, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Bachelor party is my guess.

Bro is getting hitched! biggrin.gif

Oh ok. Cool! I couldn't tell. Congrats man!

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post #297 of 327 Old 03-18-2014, 10:15 AM
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Congrats on taking your relationship to the next step!smile.gif

Even bigger congrats on that front soundstage, that looks fantastic! Looking forward to seeing how the integration of the shadow and JBL's goes. cool.gif
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post #298 of 327 Old 03-18-2014, 10:24 AM
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Ok dudes, in response to the whole Polygamy thing, total joke..... Yes at one point I had a whole phalanx of women ready for me to "put a ring on it" and the thought crossed my mind, but alas, the one I finally decided upon first, isn't the biggest fan of this idea, so yes, I must not consider this as a possibility anymore and spent the weekend in celebration of the best decision I ever made.

My brain even at this point is still at only around %30, I just wanted to make sure you all knew I wasn't dead, and that I will be getting to the more technical stuff over the next day or two.... I lterally can't type still, so I will start catching up on some other threads I lurk around on, and get to this one a bit later. smile.gif

You survived and are able to type a coherent sentence already!?! Unacceptable! biggrin.gif:D
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post #299 of 327 Old 03-18-2014, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Many thanks gentlemen smile.gif Rilla if you only knew how long it took to type that, you wouldn't be as disappointed biggrin.gif

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post #300 of 327 Old 03-18-2014, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
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Bro is getting hitched! biggrin.gif

Here I thought all the ladies coming over to check out the bachelor finale was some type of TV episode.
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Congrats on taking your relationship to the next step!smile.gif

I know how much he fell in love with the Synergys ... who can blame him?
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Slightly less rise than I have now, but this is an excellent situation to be in as previously, I had NONE, and have always wanted it, so I didn't have to start artificially boosting that area to achieve what I wanted.

Who am I to judge ... what what tongue.gif

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