What Is the Lowest Frequency One Needs to Be Able to Reproduce? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 87 Old 02-21-2014, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

MK, do you have a link to this ULF panel system? I recall you posting something about using what were basically giant diaphragms driven by modified 10" woofers. Did someone pull it off?

My opinion is that it depends. I've enjoyed systems that stop at 20hz because everything above 20hz was exceptional. I've never heard something with usable <10hz response so I don't really know. With unlimited budget and space, yeah I would go for 3hz.

One big issue is how loudly you like to listen at. If you are someone that never wants more than 10-15db below reference and you don't run your bass very hot, you can go lower for the same money. If you like to listen at reference and want your bass 20db hot then you will need giant output and probably need to compromise like NotNyt.

I've started the new page on this project... http://www.mfk-projects.com/ULF/ulf.html

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post #62 of 87 Old 02-21-2014, 08:22 PM
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that's cool.

might be even easier to implement with something like this:


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post #63 of 87 Old 02-21-2014, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

that's cool.

might be even easier to implement with something like this:


That actually looks pretty cool too!

mk
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post #64 of 87 Old 02-21-2014, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony_Gomez View Post

The truth is, I think it is all economics and space. If you can chase it, chase it. The lowest frequency one "should" to produce is the lowest one you can afford and spatially accommodate :-D

I disagree. But that's just my opinion.


Actually, maybe not. Because without the trandsucers, I would not be happy wink.gif They add far more than the subs in my opinion down into the single digits.

I guess part of how you get there factors into the equation as well.
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post #65 of 87 Old 02-22-2014, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

^ that's an excellent test except for the headphones part. The drivers in a set of headphones typically start to gently roll off around 200hz and sharply below 50hz. I'm talking about good muffs. They rely of the nearfield gain to get them flat, but their output really can't be trusted below I'd suggest 30 to 40hz. You probably could get some sense of bass above 25hz, which fits your findings.

I just wonder if the experience would have been different on a system capable of ULF. I know bosso bass does this for his guests. Full range, then 20hz filtered. And apparently its dead obvious.

Agree.

As I mentioned in another thread, <20 Hz is perceived by senses other than hearing and through different mediums, all lost when using headphones.

Not only is it dead obvious, I rarely do the test for guests at reference level because most of them are not ready for that sort of aural assault.

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Originally Posted by nube View Post

Just to add to what kgveteran and bossobass said about reproducing everything that's on a recording, which I generally agree with, in case anybody hasn't seen it, maxmercy has a project at Josh Ricci's Data-Bass.com forums, objectively measuring movies for content and ranking them by that content.

The results are a treasure trove of information on this matter - and one that the OP has already found, considering he asked the same question over there. The truth is that there is a ton of content below 20Hz in many action movies from the last two decades, and several new movies exhibit large amounts of content below 20Hz. The content below 20Hz may not matter to you, but there is a lot of it, and its prevalence is increasing. A few of these individual movies to check out graphs of are:

The point is, this isn't a rare phenomenon, it's definitely completely intentional, it's stuff we experience in real life almost constantly, at various levels, and it's becoming much more commonly included in movie mixes. In fact, a good representation of the top sound designers and mixers in Hollywood (by Academy recognition via awards) are the ones whose mixes most frequently have this content. I don't know about its prevalence music, as I don't care about bass in music that much unless it seems lacking.

For me, at least 5Hz was a design goal. I can hear tones easily differentiated down to 10Hz, but below that adds something that is partially hearing, but with additional sensations. I'm one of those (seemingly rare) people who is very sensitive to stuff below 20Hz. I live close to an AFB and can hear/feel the Ospreys flying overhead miles before anyone else I know can. It's actually a weird and somewhat unpleasant sensation, one that makes my head feel almost the same as I've felt in the rare cases when I've gotten carsick. I now wonder if the two are related, since driving in a car exposes us to a LOT of relatively high level sound below 20Hz. I also wonder if all those ear infections and cases of strep throat I had as a kid contributed to this sensitivity. Luckily they never involved tubes! wink.gif

Anyway, when experiencing content below 20Hz at home, the feeling is much the same as what I just mentioned. It's really obvious to me, and adds a level of realism that I personally need to feel immersed in movies. I have come to expect it for on-screen events involving large structures and big, heavy things, as well as for large explosions, because that's how they sound and feel to me in real life.

Again, agree 100%.

It took me years to acclimate to <20 Hz content in recorded source. It's a relatively new experience for humans. I once took a laptop to the railroad tracks and recorded a train going by at about 20 feet distance. I felt the experience as much as or more than I heard it and the recording verified why. Those loaded freight trains move the earth underneath you, so why shouldn't a cinematic portrayal of the same event have the same effect on a proportional scale? To me, that's what separates a good movie from a great movie because the film industry has the visual part down and can even depict the event from places we would never be able to experience it from, like sitting between the 2 tracks.

This was my beef with the train wreck in Super 8. I can only imagine what it would have sounded/felt like to be anywhere near that same freight train had it wrecked as violently as the one in S8, yet the ST for S8 was completely devoid of the bottom octaves in that scene. That gave the scene a cartoonish feel that took me right out of the movie.

These days, I know when there is content <20 Hz without the need to measure it and I don't have to be anywhere near reference levels with the subs calibrated flat.
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

I disagree. But that's just my opinion.


Actually, maybe not. Because without the trandsucers, I would not be happy wink.gif They add far more than the subs in my opinion down into the single digits.

I guess part of how you get there factors into the equation as well.

You prefer a radically loud presentation. Pushing MVL above reference with the subs +15dB hot is radical loud. IMO, although I don't find any fault in that preference because it is, after all, a personal preference, it de-sensitizes one to the ultra low end through masking, etc. and that's why you prefer the shakers. Just my opinion as well, but either way, this is why I shy away from personal subjective descriptions on the subject. TOpinions evolve over time with acclimation and the inevitable progress of hardware and software improvements and will always tend toward the latest upgrade experience.

I just want what's on the disc. Like/dislike is for the overall experience, not just the low end. If the movie sucks, the movie sucks and it's the production team's ass, not mine.
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post #66 of 87 Old 02-22-2014, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I just want what's on the disc. Like/dislike is for the overall experience, not just the low end. If the movie sucks, the movie sucks and it's the production team's ass, not mine.
I know it is a tangent to the OP, but in the big picture it isn't: What about accurate reproduction. Being able to produce all on the disk means being able to produce it right. Is it just as bad to not treat rooms for room modes, not EQ flat, and for that matter just as bad to give a bass boost at 20-30hz (pretty common) to enhance the rumble?
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post #67 of 87 Old 02-22-2014, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Anthony_Gomez View Post

I know it is a tangent to the OP, but in the big picture it isn't: What about accurate reproduction. Being able to produce all on the disk means being able to produce it right. Is it just as bad to not treat rooms for room modes, not EQ flat, and for that matter just as bad to give a bass boost at 20-30hz (pretty common) to enhance the rumble?

Not a tangent at all. smile.gif

It's exactly the same thing.

FR non-linearity is FR non-linearity, whether it be in the form of a steep roll off at 20 Hz or a low Q bumped response at 30 Hz or a SW channel that's bumped +10dB over the sats.
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post #68 of 87 Old 02-22-2014, 09:24 AM
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"Those loaded freight trains move the earth underneath you, so why shouldn't a cinematic portrayal of the same event have the same effect on a proportional scale?"

agree.

speakers moving air may however be the wrong tool for the wrong sense, otherwise there wouldn't be any debate.

those sub frequencies are frequently transmitted through the ground and our feet, not so much through the air.

when the loaded freight train goes by, the ground is literally shaking and that is what tells you the thing is huge, not air molecules vibrating at 2 hz. you can be in a sealed up stone house next to the railroad and you'll know it when a train passes by.

i suspect that this is why notnyt's switch from sealed subs to ported subs/transducers kicked his otherwise seemingly incomparably awesome system...up a notch.

a couple of years ago, there was some construction nearby where they were blasting rock. the power through the floor and my feet was awesome. i knew it was big and powerful, even though i couldn't get a reading on my sound pressure level meter.

anyway...interesting points all around.

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post #69 of 87 Old 02-22-2014, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Those loaded freight trains move the earth underneath you, so why shouldn't a cinematic portrayal of the same event have the same effect on a proportional scale?"
agree.
speakers moving air may however be the wrong tool for the wrong sense, otherwise there wouldn't be any debate.
+1. A totally deaf person would be just as aware of the ground conducted vibrations as anyone else. If the aim is to duplicate the real world experience then one must also duplicate the real world method by which said experience occurs.

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post #70 of 87 Old 02-22-2014, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


You prefer a radically loud presentation. Pushing MVL above reference with the subs +15dB hot is radical loud. IMO, although I don't find any fault in that preference because it is, after all, a personal preference, it de-sensitizes one to the ultra low end through masking, etc. and that's why you prefer the shakers. Just my opinion as well, but either way, this is why I shy away from personal subjective descriptions on the subject. TOpinions evolve over time with acclimation and the inevitable progress of hardware and software improvements and will always tend toward the latest upgrade experience.

Not that loud. Subs are +9db hot, then I generally watch from -10 to -5, sometimes a bit louder, with dynamic EQ on.
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post #71 of 87 Old 02-22-2014, 12:08 PM
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9dbs hot ! That's scorching
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post #72 of 87 Old 02-22-2014, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

9dbs hot ! That's scorching

Yeah, but even with Dynamic EQ being kind of a mystery of how much it's boosting, I don't think I'm watching often at +9db above reference.

Now, music, that's another story. I'll max out the sub level on the receiver sometimes... I have it setup so Audyssey calibrates them in at -11, then I'll put them to +12 sometimes (+23db).
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post #73 of 87 Old 02-22-2014, 12:22 PM
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And that's an especially potent difference as you approach 0 on the dial (and 0 boosting from Dynamic EQ) when you're talking about a movie where the bass is most potent from 20-26Hz, right in the wheelhouse of your three huge ported stacks, playing at literally one-and-a-half times the SPL of the normal, flat presentation. wink.gif
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post #74 of 87 Old 02-22-2014, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Montekay View Post

I've started the new page on this project... http://www.mfk-projects.com/ULF/ulf.html

mk
Yep I recall that diagram. Have you simmed the response? You could probably get an approximation. You are basically creating a very weak motor, huge Sd infinite baffle driver. With no air spring to overcome and a giant amount of displacement it shouldn't be hard to produce the extremely low frequencies in quantity. The difficult part is making it fit a room and finding a cavity large enough that it won't act as an air spring. If that is feasible then it is probably a good solution that could be executed for little relative cost.

I wonder if it could be scaled down to work in something like an 7'x3'x2' box with two opposed 7'x2' panel diaphragms. That wouldn't offer the IB benefits but it might still work provide huge Sd for less money... And they would fit my space.

That powersoft mega driver is interesting too but I'm not sure how easy it would be to pull off.

This discussion is probably better suited for another thread.
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post #75 of 87 Old 02-22-2014, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

+1. A totally deaf person would be just as aware of the ground conducted vibrations as anyone else. If the aim is to duplicate the real world experience then one must also duplicate the real world method by which said experience occurs.

I can easily picture myself many effects in movies that I certainly have no desire to reproduce in a "realistic" way..
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post #76 of 87 Old 02-22-2014, 02:48 PM
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I can easily picture myself many effects in movies that I certainly have no desire to reproduce in a "realistic" way..

I have a feeling that you and I are in a very small club on this DIY sub discussion forum! biggrin.gif

To be clear, I don't WANT a train to be running through my living room at reference level, it would be a very unpleasant experience. A little rumble would be nice, even with some volume, that wouldn't bother me. But when I hear a drum set, I don't WANT the cymbals ringing in my ear, I don't WANT the crack of a snare drum rim shot every time music is playing. I know from real life what that sounds like, and it can be very painful.

Others' wants/desires may be different from mine, and that's absolutely OK. cool.gif

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #77 of 87 Old 02-22-2014, 06:00 PM
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Yes, there is often a very fine line between awesome and too much.

If you have experienced gunfire at close range, you probably would not like to have that reproduced at full level.
The shock wave from a small grenade would probably blow out the windows.
May be that's why most HT's don't have windows..

Using sound only there will be only so much that you can possibly make out of it, but still, for me, the whole sound experience is what makes it interesting and exciting to watch as movie.
And with the audio distribution formats available today, there are possibilities.

Using the whole frequency range is a good starting point for a great experience.
Then you have 24-bit dynamics available.
If used correctly it could provide a very significant improvement of sound effects by having much more impact and realism.
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post #78 of 87 Old 02-22-2014, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Those loaded freight trains move the earth underneath you, so why shouldn't a cinematic portrayal of the same event have the same effect on a proportional scale?"

agree.

speakers moving air may however be the wrong tool for the wrong sense, otherwise there wouldn't be any debate.

those sub frequencies are frequently transmitted through the ground and our feet, not so much through the air.

when the loaded freight train goes by, the ground is literally shaking and that is what tells you the thing is huge, not air molecules vibrating at 2 hz. you can be in a sealed up stone house next to the railroad and you'll know it when a train passes by.

i suspect that this is why notnyt's switch from sealed subs to ported subs/transducers kicked his otherwise seemingly incomparably awesome system...up a notch.

a couple of years ago, there was some construction nearby where they were blasting rock. the power through the floor and my feet was awesome. i knew it was big and powerful, even though i couldn't get a reading on my sound pressure level meter.

anyway...interesting points all around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okv View Post

I can easily picture myself many effects in movies that I certainly have no desire to reproduce in a "realistic" way..

Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

I have a feeling that you and I are in a very small club on this DIY sub discussion forum! biggrin.gif

To be clear, I don't WANT a train to be running through my living room at reference level, it would be a very unpleasant experience. A little rumble would be nice, even with some volume, that wouldn't bother me. But when I hear a drum set, I don't WANT the cymbals ringing in my ear, I don't WANT the crack of a snare drum rim shot every time music is playing. I know from real life what that sounds like, and it can be very painful.

Others' wants/desires may be different from mine, and that's absolutely OK. cool.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okv View Post

Yes, there is often a very fine line between awesome and too much.

If you have experienced gunfire at close range, you probably would not like to have that reproduced at full level.
The shock wave from a small grenade would probably blow out the windows.
May be that's why most HT's don't have windows..

Using sound only there will be only so much that you can possibly make out of it, but still, for me, the whole sound experience is what makes it interesting and exciting to watch as movie.
And with the audio distribution formats available today, there are possibilities.

Using the whole frequency range is a good starting point for a great experience.
Then you have 24-bit dynamics available.
If used correctly it could provide a very significant improvement of sound effects by having much more impact and realism.

Yes, let's not get carried away with the illustration. eek.gif

Of course the picture on the screen isn't 1:1 scale of an actual freight train as it suddenly appears on the main drag and smashes into Cobb's car…



Of course, we see and hear a scaled down version. The ULF pressure waves are plenty to move seat under me and my windows without breaking them, although a neighbor came to tell me she could hear my HT in her living room across the street and she said when she saw the windows bulging she turned around and went back home.

That's close enough for me. smile.gif
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post #79 of 87 Old 02-23-2014, 07:02 AM
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After pondering this thread, I think I have a answer. DD as far as I know has a 3 Hz floor, so there you have it. For those who say that subs should be capable of producing all the content, your answer is 3 Hz at reference level biggrin.gif
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post #80 of 87 Old 02-23-2014, 11:26 AM
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What about subs down to the minimum audible frequency, then bass shakers/transducers for below? Seems a cheaper and maybe more realistic way to achieve things?

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post #81 of 87 Old 02-23-2014, 01:39 PM
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What about subs down to the minimum audible frequency, then bass shakers/transducers for below? Seems a cheaper and maybe more realistic way to achieve things?

Gary

Well, <20hz generated by shaking transducers and <20hz generated by pressure transducers (subs) is a different feeling effect. So, I'd guess you'd want both, but how much of each, I'm not sure.
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post #82 of 87 Old 02-23-2014, 01:51 PM
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i just made some test tones of ULF.

half second burst each. freq's 8, 10, 12, 16, and 20hz.

this is the 16hz burst:



each is followed by a half second of silence.

each burst is half a second long, so the number of cycles varies by frequency.

there may be an easier way, but i used audacity to create a "chirp". this creates half of the file.

then duplicated it, inverted it, and reversed it. took that piece and copied it onto the first. this creates the full cycle.

then i added half a second of silence.

exported to mp3.

halfsecondULFTESTTONES.zip 166k .zip file

good site for other test tones, here: http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_sinebursts20-200.php
Attached Files
File Type: zip halfsecondULFTESTTONES.zip (166.1 KB, 7 views)

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post #83 of 87 Old 02-24-2014, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

+1. A totally deaf person would be just as aware of the ground conducted vibrations as anyone else. If the aim is to duplicate the real world experience then one must also duplicate the real world method by which said experience occurs.

We experience through sight, sound and feel. It's kinda like Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said, " i know porn when i see it ", i just know when a system has conquered all three sensory receptors..... For now taste, smell have to take a back seat
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post #84 of 87 Old 02-24-2014, 06:50 AM
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I've just entered the 14-15hrz arena and I'm quite satisfied, for the moment.

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post #85 of 87 Old 02-24-2014, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by AlphaPie View Post

I've just entered the 14-15hrz arena and I'm quite satisfied, for the moment.

I'm really glad you qualified your statement at the end. biggrin.gif

I must be guilty because people say I am guilty because they chose to call me guilty because they refuse to see the truth. Much easier to be part of the mob..
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post #86 of 87 Old 02-24-2014, 10:14 AM
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I'm in the 30hz range and I am very unsatisfied.... for the moment and all eternity until I get down below 20hz. Oh wait, I don't have any sub yet eek.gif
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post #87 of 87 Old 02-24-2014, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trepidati0n View Post

I'm really glad you qualified your statement at the end. biggrin.gif

My next step is to add a second sub to increase the dB at 15hz, then I'm sure I'll be itching to get even lower at some point. Possibly in 6 months.. or 1 haha

Pioneer Elite SC-71 - Polk RT20P (w/ 4 8" subs) - Polk CS245i center - Polk Monitor 75T
Custom MartySub, 18" Dayton 460 7cuft' cabinet w/ Inuke3000dsp at 1400 watts over 200lb! For sale : (
Toshiba 55" LED - HTPC - Wii U - Sony BDP-S1100 - Monster HTS3500
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