Who wants to see the Inuke12000DSP tested? - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 445 Old 07-03-2014, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
Dang, I was impressed with the inuke 6k numbers, but this one is not worth the price.
They clearly have a firmware issue that needs to get worked out. Pretty sad it went back to them and they were still too inept to fix it. I'm sure they'll get it eventually.

Does the voltage limiter still limit you to 100v?
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post #362 of 445 Old 07-09-2014, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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It's still in transit.
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post #363 of 445 Old 07-10-2014, 09:25 AM
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Even if the problem was resolved on this unit, it makes me wonder how many other units are affected that are sitting around waiting for buyers that wont even realize that they aren't at rated power. Unless they test it, they wont know. If they fix this one, it doesn't mean the next guy wont have an issue.
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post #364 of 445 Old 07-10-2014, 03:48 PM
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post #365 of 445 Old 07-10-2014, 04:42 PM
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Now I'm -not- defending Behringer for inflating power spec, but on second thought I actually think the 12000 is very much in line with what has bees seem from them earlier. The 6000 is rated to 3100w/4ohm and the 12000 is rated to 3400w/4ohm but with the additional capability of driving 2ohm speakers. This points to what has been seen in testing. In 4ohms its not going to be much better than the 6000 because it simply doesn't have much higher voltage swing (limited at 100V). As fas as i understand it wasent tested in 2ohms, but 100V into 2ohms equals 5000W and 2 x 5000 = 10000, not too far of the rated 2 x 6000W. Its all a numbers game and the devil is in the detail.
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post #366 of 445 Old 07-10-2014, 04:48 PM
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[QUOTE=splotten;25645265As fas as i understand it wasent tested in 2ohms, but 100V into 2ohms equals 5000W and 2 x 5000 = 10000, not too far of the rated 2 x 6000W. Its all a numbers game and the devil is in the detail.[/QUOTE]
It was tested at 2 ohms as was confirmed to you on 7/3/14.

2700W/2 mains 82A
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post #367 of 445 Old 07-10-2014, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
It was tested at 2 ohms as was confirmed to you on 7/3/14.

2700W/2 mains 82A
It was only confirmed that it tested the same as in an earlier test. I asked for a link to the results, as I couldnt find them, and still cant. I wasn't answered. If it only does 2700w into 2ohms its a joke.

I see the link thanks.

EDIT: I think these results are a bit embarrassing for Behringer. Its pretty far from official spec. I am little surprised it didn't test better. The internal looks a lot beefier than the 6000.
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post #368 of 445 Old 07-10-2014, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post
It was only confirmed that it tested the same as in an earlier test. I asked for a link to the results, as I couldnt find them, and still cant. I wasn't answered. If it only does 2700w into 2ohms its a joke.

I see the link thanks.

EDIT: I think these results are a bit embarrassing for Behringer. Its pretty far from official spec. I am little surprised it didn't test better. The internal looks a lot beefier than the 6000.
I agree. The internals looked way more capable. I was impressed with the increased component density, but it really didn't do anything close to rated power. I am still waiting on a response from Behringer. I am pretty dissapointed to say the least and am selling it if Behringer can't remedy the issue.
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post #369 of 445 Old 07-11-2014, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Got the amp back today. Brian was correct. The knobs and buttons are all loose on the front panel! Ugh. I immediately called Behringer CARE to talk to someone about this. They got me the technician who did the repairs. I told him about the knobs and he didn't seem surprised. I also stated that the "fixed" amplifier's output the exact same power as before the "repairs." He asked if the testing was done with the proper equipment like they have....I said yes. Then he asked if it was tested with a 20A circuit. I said yes. Her then asked for the contact info of the tester. I asked Brian if he was ok with that and he was. Curious to see where this goes from here.
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post #370 of 445 Old 07-11-2014, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebuckaman View Post
Got the amp back today. Brian was correct. The knobs and buttons are all loose on the front panel! Ugh. I immediately called Behringer CARE to talk to someone about this. They got me the technician who did the repairs. I told him about the knobs and he didn't seem surprised. I also stated that the "fixed" amplifier's output the exact same power as before the "repairs." He asked if the testing was done with the proper equipment like they have....I said yes. Then he asked if it was tested with a 20A circuit. I said yes. Her then asked for the contact info of the tester. I asked Brian if he was ok with that and he was. Curious to see where this goes from here.

Can you set the output limit greater than 100v in software?
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post #371 of 445 Old 07-12-2014, 01:39 PM
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that might actually be the problem 'not.


at least the software that i'm looking at has 100v as the "peak" limit with the limiter turned all the way up. normally, that would just effectively turn it off/bypass any limiting. there doesn't seem to be a separate way to actually turn it off.

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post #372 of 445 Old 07-12-2014, 01:45 PM
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downloaded the software v1.4 from the 12000 webpage.


no way to "turn off" limiter. maximum setting on limiter is 100v peak.


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post #373 of 445 Old 07-12-2014, 02:05 PM
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Wasn't it confirmed, some time ago, that the limiters in the nukes are -peak- limiters (as opposed to rms). In that case 100V makes even less sense as that is equal to 70.7Vrms and therefore 1250W into 4 ohms . you can see this for yourself if you choose "4 ohm" under the load drop down menu. From what i gather from the test results its limited to 100V rms. Not 100V peak ?!?!


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post #374 of 445 Old 07-12-2014, 06:17 PM
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in the manual, the screen shot of the limiter (if you look closely) is 50 volts peak, suggesting that the voltage peak was meant to be different for the various amps. looks like somebody forgot to change it for the 12000. hopefully it can fixed with software.


"Wasn't it confirmed, some time ago, that the limiters in the nukes are -peak- limiters (as opposed to rms)."


not sure, but it is shown as v sub p, suggesting that you are correct.

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post #375 of 445 Old 07-16-2014, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok. Just got off the phone with Behringer CARE. I talked to Shane. Shane was the technician who worked on my amplifier. Shane stated that the response from Behringer engineers is that the NU12000 is indeed putting out 12,000 watts PEAK.....He then stated the tests performed on the amplifier by Brian were way to strenuous and unlikely in any scenario in which the amplifier would be used (do you know me? or anyone in the DIY forum?!!!). He said the amplifier is 6000x2 peak and more around half of that rating into program (3000x2). He stated that the amplifier is "very intelligent" and will internally limit itself from shutting down during stressful scenarios such as Brian's test as the power supply etc. bog down.

So....everyone....the NU12000DSP is rated in PEAK power....

That being said, they are pre paying shipping both ways to have the front knobs/panel tightened up as they think the loose knobs happened in shipping.

Also, somewhere in the shuffle, my power cord went missing. I checked with Brian and Behringer and both said the amp arrived without a cord. I checked everywhere...didn't think I could lose a bright yellow 10/3 power cord....but I did.

Brian (just a stand up guy) is sending me a cable. Really appreciate what he has done here. Taken his time tested this amp twice and is sending me a cord (which I am still offering to pay for Brian!).

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post #376 of 445 Old 07-16-2014, 01:10 PM
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No surprise there...Behringer has been using peak power for a while.
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post #377 of 445 Old 07-16-2014, 09:19 PM
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The clone is also peak power.
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post #378 of 445 Old 07-16-2014, 11:51 PM
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well, once it gets home. grab a voltmeter, run a full scale sine wave (no sub connected!) and measure the voltage. with zero load, it can't be argued that the "test" is too strenuous and if it only puts out 100v peak, better call uli. :-)

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post #379 of 445 Old 07-17-2014, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebuckaman View Post
Ok. Just got off the phone with Behringer CARE. I talked to Shane. Shane was the technician who worked on my amplifier. Shane stated that the response from Behringer engineers is that the NU12000 is indeed putting out 12,000 watts PEAK.....He then stated the tests performed on the amplifier by Brian were way to strenuous and unlikely in any scenario in which the amplifier would be used (do you know me? or anyone in the DIY forum?!!!). He said the amplifier is 6000x2 peak and more around half of that rating into program (3000x2). He stated that the amplifier is "very intelligent" and will internally limit itself from shutting down during stressful scenarios such as Brian's test as the power supply etc. bog down.
Quick math check: 100 V peak = 70.7 RMS
70.7 @ 2 ohms = 2500 watts RMS per channel at clipping. How on earth can they call that a 12,000 watt amp? Can you get the tech to just admit what the max rail voltage swing is? I think a lot of us were expecting it to be a two inuke 6k frankenstein amp, in other words 200 volt swing.

Further, if the inuke 6ks themselves are 100 V peak, how were they bench testing to ~2000 watts per channel at 4 ohms? That should top out at 1250 W/ch. Time to get out my crappy multimeter and measure mine. Or has this been done???


p.s. clone limiters are peak as well, but isn't the swing on a 14k like 300 V? I'm pretty sure my fp10k is 150 V for the four channels.
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post #380 of 445 Old 07-17-2014, 12:43 PM
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Andy

It was already tested. The 12000 does "Maximum output voltage no load 99.67VAC".

Who wants to see the Inuke12000DSP tested?

That has to be Vrms.
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post #381 of 445 Old 07-17-2014, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy497 View Post
Further, if the inuke 6ks themselves are 100 V peak, how were they bench testing to ~2000 watts per channel at 4 ohms? That should top out at 1250 W/ch. Time to get out my crappy multimeter and measure mine. Or has this been done???
With my multimeter I got 73VRMS with no load on a standard iNuke 6000 (non DSP). Attempts to go higher resulted in the limiter kicking in and lowering voltage.
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post #382 of 445 Old 07-17-2014, 02:01 PM
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If that is the case then the conclusions in this test must be wrong.

http://forum.speakerplans.com/behrin...opic69202.html

There are some scope shots in there that look like you might be right. I didn't notice until now. This is very confusing. If the 6000 really has an un-defeatable 100Vp limiter it is much less powerful than I thought.
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post #383 of 445 Old 07-17-2014, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post
If that is the case then the conclusions in this test must be wrong.

http://forum.speakerplans.com/behrin...opic69202.html

There are some scope shots in there that look like you might be right. I didn't notice until now. This is very confusing. If the 6000 really has an un-defeatable 100Vp limiter it is much less powerful than I thought.
Why, the inuke 6000 is only 3000 watts per channel peak. On a 2 ohm load, it only needs to hit 77 volts.
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post #384 of 445 Old 07-17-2014, 02:08 PM
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Why, the 6000 is only 3000 watts per channel peak on a 2 ohm channel, it only needs to hit 77 volts.
Its not rated for 2Ohm drive.
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post #385 of 445 Old 07-17-2014, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by splotten View Post
Its not rated for 2Ohm drive.
oh right, its 4 ohms. I was thinking of the 3000.

How do the inuke 6000 tests measure it to output that much power if it can't go above 100V then?

The inuke 6000 is two permanently bridged inuke 3000's, could it be that it's doing a 100V to -100V because it's a bridged 3000?

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post #386 of 445 Old 07-17-2014, 02:21 PM
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oh right, its 4 ohms. I was thinking of the 3000.

How do the inuke 6000 tests measure it to output that much power if it can't go above 100V then?

The inuke 6000 is two permanently bridged inuke 3000's, could it be that it's doing a 100V to -100V because it's a bridged 3000?
I dont know. I think its confusing.

Take a look scope shot from the link above. Looks like he multiplies the values from the scope with sqrt2 before calculating the power. That seem wrong or maybe im just over-tired. As of right now i cant make sense of it.

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post #387 of 445 Old 07-17-2014, 02:28 PM
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yeah that picture shows it's 68 volts to -68 volts and 64 to -64 so, yes it's probably 100V peak limiter, if that's what it says, but since it's bridged it can get a 200 volt difference, which is enough to drive 4 ohm to rated power. (154 volts)
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post #388 of 445 Old 07-17-2014, 03:17 PM
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That is not how you calculate Vrms for a sine wave. Vrms = (Vp-p/2)/sqrt2 = Vp/sqrt2. It is not Vp-p/sqrt2
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post #389 of 445 Old 07-17-2014, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post
I dont know. I think its confusing.

Take a look scope shot from the link above. Looks like he multiplies the values from the scope with sqrt2 before calculating the power. That seem wrong or maybe im just over-tired. As of right now i cant make sense of it.
I didn't notice that before. The TEK TDS2024B was used for the measurements. According to the manual, the voltage between the top and bottom lines (called CURSOR 1 and CURSOR 2) is peak-to-peak voltage. The graph is showing 136V. This puts it at 68V peak and 48VRMS.

He says the Kam amp produced 1.12kW at 8 ohms and then shows this picture:


This has 264V peak-to-peak which is 94VRMS and matches the watts at 1.12kW.

Either the wrong graphs were posted for the Behringer, or the power output was calculated wrong.
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post #390 of 445 Old 07-17-2014, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I didn't notice that before. The TEK TDS2024B was used for the measurements. According to the manual, the voltage between the top and bottom lines (called CURSOR 1 and CURSOR 2) is peak-to-peak voltage. The graph is showing 136V. This puts it at 68V peak and 48VRMS.

He says the Kam amp produced 1.12kW at 8 ohms and then shows this picture:


This has 264V peak-to-peak which is 94VRMS and matches the watts at 1.12kW.

Either the wrong graphs were posted for the Behringer, or the power output was calculated wrong.
Agreed. It doesent make sense.
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