Who wants to see the Inuke12000DSP tested? - Page 15 - AVS Forum
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Old 09-26-2014, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
In order to meet it's spec of 1250 @ 8, the 7500 it only needs 100vRMS.

sqrt(1250w * 8ohm) = 100v
sqrt(2022w * 4ohm) = 90v
sqrt(3750w * 2ohm) = 87v
Assuming the power supply could provide the amperes needed.

For the 12k:
sqrt(1700w * 8ohm) = 117v
sqrt(3400w * 4ohm) = 117v
sqrt(6000w * 2ohm) = 110v

So the 12k needs to reach 117v, otherwise it ain't to spec.


The Crown iTech 8000:
sqrt(2100w * 8ohm) = 130v
sqrt(4000w * 4ohm) = 127v
sqrt(3500w * 2ohm) = 87v

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaoTG3mkHV0
What I actually measured from it was 148v, so it has enough voltage to exceed it's spec. It was independently tested as being able to do somewhere around 9-10kW.
If the iTech 8000 had a slightly better SMPS with a less aggressive limiter it would actually beat the PowerSoft K10; and for the first 2 seconds at dual 4-ohms it actually does beat it as-is by 2000watts total.
As far as bursting goes the iTech 8000 is a monster, and for bridging into a 4ohm load the K10 is a monster.



At 8-ohms for the first 80seconds the iTech beats the K10 by about 800watts total.

On Average both of them can do about ~5-6kW for about ~1minute, give or take. Which is a lot of power for a coil to heat up with.
On the K10 are you adding the two channels together to get that power? I measured per channel, both channels driven, 3600 W/2 for 1.5 sec and 1260W/2 after that. The inuke 12000 measured not much less at 2700W/2/ch/both and did not diminish with time. Both are a loooong way from the specified 6000W per channel. I guess the inuke gets off the hook because it is so cheap. It costs a lot to make an amp that actually delivers 6000W/2 per channel, both channels driven for a musically significant period of time.
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Old 09-27-2014, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeakerPower View Post
On the K10 are you adding the two channels together to get that power? I measured per channel, both channels driven, 3600 W/2 for 1.5 sec and 1260W/2 after that. The inuke 12000 measured not much less at 2700W/2/ch/both and did not diminish with time. Both are a loooong way from the specified 6000W per channel. I guess the inuke gets off the hook because it is so cheap. It costs a lot to make an amp that actually delivers 6000W/2 per channel, both channels driven for a musically significant period of time.
Brian,
The tests by Langston that BassThatHz posted are some of the most detailed and comprehensive independent amp tests that have been done IMHO. The results show that the k10 amp does provide the 6000w for 1 second into 2 ohms before the sustained power is reduced. The 6000w rating is at 2 ohms with an unspecified duration. The measurements for the k10 show that it also comes reasonably close to sustaining its ratings at 4ohm and 8ohm both for around 10 seconds. The Itech amp is also pretty close to its ratings for the first couple of seconds before dropping to a lower sustained power indefinitely. A full second at 100% duty cycle into a resistive 2ohm load is pretty good in my book. I don't think anyone should realistically expect a true long term sustained power at that level into low impedances. The typical ac lines can't support the current draw for it long term as we all know. A few seconds of continuous power is a realistic design goal in my opinion because the content actually reproduced in even the most demanding material is not going to be 100% duty for more than that amount of time unless it is a very specialized circumstance. I have nothing but good things to say about the Speakerpower plate amps I have used. They are great. However, I have to take into consideration that you are the manufacturer of products that directly compete with these other brands being discussed. I appreciate your willingness to test amps but what I would like to see is an unbiased third party conducting the testing on your amps against the competitors. Unfortunately I do not know of anyone in a position to provide this service.
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Old 09-28-2014, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post

3790W into 2 ohm is 87V. Note that it takes 50ms to complete one cycle at 20 Hz. Therefore the 4800w, 20ms burst rating is of no value (IMO).

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I think this is overlooked way too often and BTH hit the nail on the head with his response. Some amps just don't hold enough power long enough to be a good sub amp.
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Old 09-28-2014, 03:45 PM
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Hi Ricci
I remember Langston doing those tests about 4 years ago, but the pictures no longer show up in my browser. I can't explain the difference between my results and his. Part of it may be that he tested at 208-240VAC and I was at 120VAC. Part may be he used water heater elements as a load and I used 2000W noninductive load resistors. The heaters are probably designed to have a high temperature coefficient of resistance so they unload the amp at high power. I tested at low frequencies where the power is. etc. I hope he comes to the Audio Engineering Society meeting in 2 weeks so we can compare notes. I'll be presenting Saturday at 3:30 on Optimizing Powered Loudspeakers.
http://www.aes.org/events/137/productdesign/?ID=4128

I agree that a few seconds hold time at full power is enough. That is what my amps do. Then they smoothly cut back 3-4 dB.

I too would like to see my results verified by an independent third party. That is science! It is really difficult to design a test where all the variables are taken into account and a lot of work. If anyone else wants to take that on I'll be happy to share my experience in how I went about it.
Brian
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Old 09-28-2014, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeakerPower View Post
Hi Ricci
I remember Langston doing those tests about 4 years ago, but the pictures no longer show up in my browser. I can't explain the difference between my results and his. Part of it may be that he tested at 208-240VAC and I was at 120VAC. Part may be he used water heater elements as a load and I used 2000W noninductive load resistors. The heaters are probably designed to have a high temperature coefficient of resistance so they unload the amp at high power. I tested at low frequencies where the power is. etc. I hope he comes to the Audio Engineering Society meeting in 2 weeks so we can compare notes. I'll be presenting Saturday at 3:30 on Optimizing Powered Loudspeakers.
http://www.aes.org/events/137/productdesign/?ID=4128

I agree that a few seconds hold time at full power is enough. That is what my amps do. Then they smoothly cut back 3-4 dB.

I too would like to see my results verified by an independent third party. That is science! It is really difficult to design a test where all the variables are taken into account and a lot of work. If anyone else wants to take that on I'll be happy to share my experience in how I went about it.
Brian

I have his results saved. Cheers.

https://docs.google.com/uc?export=do...GN5NEF2M0s5OXM
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Old 10-14-2014, 05:40 PM
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Sorry guys chiming in late but what are the final results on the 12000dsp. Also if I am reading right the limiter increased on the second return? Is this indicative of what is on the market now or just the unit that was reworked. I have couple 3000 and 6000dsp's and was thinking about the 12000dsp but not at the original wattage stated as I would go with another 6000dsp for my upcoming project
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Old 10-14-2014, 06:48 PM
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@SpeakerPower
"I'll be presenting Saturday at 3:30 on Optimizing Powered Loudspeakers."
Brian, Any chance that you have lecture handouts or PowerPoint type slides that you could share from your presentation?

Listen. It's All Good.
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Old 10-16-2014, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
@SpeakerPower
"I'll be presenting Saturday at 3:30 on Optimizing Powered Loudspeakers."
Brian, Any chance that you have lecture handouts or PowerPoint type slides that you could share from your presentation?
Unfortunately, the slideshow was put together by my co-presenter Scott Leslie so I don't have it.

Regarding the bottom line on the iNuke 12000, buckaman measured the maximum voltage at 103V, just a few more than I measured before the last return to the factory. So even though the knob now lets you set it for a higher limit, the voltage delivered does not match it and is insufficient to meet spec.

I would also like to reinforce what others said above; power is NOT calculated from peak voltage, but from RMS voltage. The only time peak equals RMS is for a square wave and hopefully that is not what we are listening to. There is no such thing as "peak" or "instantaneous" power, regardless of what marketing people say. Meaningful terms are Burst power for a defined but limited time and Continuous power.
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Old 11-10-2014, 01:04 PM
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The iNuke 12,000 DSP is on sale at < $800 at amazon... (or perhaps new price?)
http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-NU12...inuke+dsp+6000

Did anyone run across additional test results on this dsp 12,000?

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Old 11-11-2014, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeakerPower View Post
Unfortunately, the slideshow was put together by my co-presenter Scott Leslie so I don't have it.

Regarding the bottom line on the iNuke 12000, buckaman measured the maximum voltage at 103V, just a few more than I measured before the last return to the factory. So even though the knob now lets you set it for a higher limit, the voltage delivered does not match it and is insufficient to meet spec.

I would also like to reinforce what others said above; power is NOT calculated from peak voltage, but from RMS voltage. The only time peak equals RMS is for a square wave and hopefully that is not what we are listening to. There is no such thing as "peak" or "instantaneous" power, regardless of what marketing people say. Meaningful terms are Burst power for a defined but limited time and Continuous power.
My guess is you are saying the right things, but I feel there might be some things missing here for the average reader.

I would like to reinforce that what is being stated is only correct in the context of measuring loud speaker amplifiers. Power is volts * amps. Therefore, by definition is "instantaneous" since there is no inference of time. Secondarily there such a thing the call "peak power"; it is the maximum instantaneous power delivered within a measured duration. It doesn't mater if it is 1 femto second or 1 year. It is a very important specification when design power stages for ANY electronics.

So when the markers use the term "peak" or "instantaneous power", they may not be telling a fib because they may be "technically correct". Put it this way, if somebody asked me "did you brush your teeth", I could say yes since I could have done it last year and be "technically correct". The problem with "technically correctness" is that is is often misapplied for the sake of gain. Again if somebody asked me "did you brush your teeth today", I could say yes. But what if I only spent 3 seconds doing it? Again, what I said is "technically correct".

Secondarily, I really get what industry is trying to do, but I feel that the audio industry is still trying to invent "terms". This goes to constantly reading/hearing the term RMS watts. I mean a professor or person with reasonable experience might understand what you are implying...but I know I would be thinking "does this person know what they are really talking about". As a clarification, (Vrms)^2/R or Vrms*Irms (for resistive loads) is AVERAGE power; this is the correct definition. So to simplify, "burst power" and "continuous power" are both not correct enough either since it is not complete. It should be "continuous maximum average power" and "time limited maximum average power" if we want to clear on what is being measured. Even with that, the definitions stated will still allow a degree a specmanship by marketers that will result in disingenuous data which will negatively impact the consumer. I think to further clarify this the measurement cycle should account for several frequencies (e.g. 1 Hz to 20kHz) including sine AND square (we don't listen to this..but we don't listen to pure tones either). But again, this is looking for an absolute "truth" which isn't correct either.

I think it comes down to this, does the amplifier reproduce the desired input within a defined level of distortion? I personally think this is ALL that matters. How to get to this is the trick though. I mean the THX spec gives 85 dB + 20 dB headroom. So why not define the reference to be 0.01% distortion and 0.1% for the +20 dB. Play back "several" sound tracks which could be considered "punishing" for various reasons (e.g. high average or high peaks or both) into resistive loads (8, 4, 2, 1..etc). Once we know this we know the correct gain level for that amplifier and thus correct power. This means if we desire the THX spec, by very simple math we can know if the amplifier we chose will meet our needs. The only bad part of this method is it would require the amplifier industry to "agree" on the test files which would NEVER happen because that makes it HARDER to turn a profit and also pushes industry more towards being a true commodity which will reduce competition. Furthermore I'm not sure it is fair either because movies like edge of tomorrow are outlying cases.

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad people are starting to get a bit more serious on this. I wish some of the same effort was done for the magnetics industry (these guys make politicians and lawyers look honest). Thanks again for doing what you are doing.

I must be guilty because people say I am guilty because they chose to call me guilty because they refuse to see the truth. Much easier to be part of the mob..
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Old 11-11-2014, 02:45 PM
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Trying to find a inuke12000 without DSP is like looking for an endangered species.
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Old 11-11-2014, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Trepidati0n View Post
Power is volts * amps. Therefore, by definition is "instantaneous" since there is no inference of time.
That's an assumption, not the definition.

Without further specification as to whether it's rms, peak, or instantaneous at some particular point on the waveform, it's anybody's guess.

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Old 11-11-2014, 07:05 PM
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That's an assumption, not the definition.

Without further specification as to whether it's rms, peak, or instantaneous at some particular point on the waveform, it's anybody's guess.
In it universal physics definition power = work/time. However, when it comes to electronics power = volts * amps at an instantaneous point in time. This is the definition. It is not mutable. If you do anything other than a P(t) function then it no longer power..it becomes something else..e.g. "average power". "peak power", etc. This is why definitions exist so its not "anybody's guess". However, marketing has gotten very good at, as I said, being "technically correct" when trying to make their product look better.

I must be guilty because people say I am guilty because they chose to call me guilty because they refuse to see the truth. Much easier to be part of the mob..
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Old 11-11-2014, 11:33 PM
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Is Wiki incorrect?:

Electric power, like mechanical power, is the rate of doing work, measured in watts, and represented by the letter P. The term wattage is used colloquially to mean "electric power in watts." The electric power in watts produced by an electric current I consisting of a charge of Q coulombs every t seconds passing through an electric potential (voltage) difference of V is
P = \text{work done per unit time} = \frac {VQ}{t} = VI \,
where
Q is electric charge in coulombs
t is time in seconds
I is electric current in amperes
V is electric potential or voltage in volts

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Old 11-16-2014, 07:17 PM
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is this iNuke DSP 12000 240volt or 120volt,
or can it be either?


The price keeps dropping on Amazon. It's now at $765 and I have 5% off of amazon purchases through Chase credit card.


So that's about $725. It's starting to get lucrative at that price.


I think I could wire my ultimax subs to 1ohm each , then wire three together per side and end up with a 3ohm load per channel.

If it runs off 240volt - then I have a range electrical line run with a 40 amp breaker that is unused that I could easily wire the 12,000 to.

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Old 11-16-2014, 07:27 PM
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Generally how is this going to compare in real world performance to a clone amp like the 14K which sells for around $1000?


Or perhaps the bossobass upgraded 14K that he sells for $1700.

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Old 11-17-2014, 01:13 AM
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The North American version is 120v.

The 14K clone will spank it all day long, 2-ohms bosso would be like 4 times more powerful.

The 12k does 103v RMS, unless they have since fixed their product line (which I doubt).

A 10kQ outputs 105v RMS, so it's like half of a 10kQ.

So it's really just a 2100watt x 2 amp; basically just a 2-ohm stable nu6000DSP; unless I'm missing something here...
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Old 11-17-2014, 01:22 AM
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This is 2100watts @ 4ohms from a clone.

and here is 5000watts from a clone (bridge mode: 2-ohms)
It's a scary amount of power. More-than overkill. A true cone roaster.

Last edited by BassThatHz; 11-17-2014 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 11-17-2014, 10:55 PM
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The peavy 7500 seems to have more power at 2 ohms.

Even at 2 ohms the testing does not show much more than an inuke 6000 at 4 ohm.

The 14000 clone at 4 ohms sure seems stronger than a bridged inuke 3000 though I don't have any kind of measurements.
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Old 11-17-2014, 11:19 PM
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I would like to see a bridged peavy ipr 3000 tested. It may just get close to a single channel of a clone at 4 ohm or greater and about the same price per channel.
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Old 11-18-2014, 11:24 AM
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IPR2's can not be bridged. The clone has much more power as I own both. The clone has more power than most and where it matters to many here, below 20hz.
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Old 11-18-2014, 11:43 AM
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IPR2's can not be bridged. The clone has much more power as I own both. The clone has more power than most and where it matters to many here, below 20hz.
The crest 2.0 and 3.0 can be bridged. There's even a third Speakon on the back just for bridged.
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Old 11-18-2014, 01:25 PM
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I don't know anything about the crest. If you want full bandwidth then you need the power down low and my Sanways never disappointed.

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Old 11-18-2014, 01:32 PM
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Anyone used the Ashly KLR series amps for sub duties?

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Packed with features, KLRs make a great choice when you need to value engineer a distributed sound system.

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Old 11-18-2014, 03:19 PM
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WiSounds uses them for his DJ system. I hear they are very nice.

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