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post #91 of 411 Old 03-10-2014, 10:22 PM
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I really think I should change my name to John Smith, watcha' think? wink.gif






nobody will notice

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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post #92 of 411 Old 03-11-2014, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Solution.

BassThatHz shall buy every amplifier that is to be tested.

Honestly it makes the most sense....

Absolutely Scott.

Sky's the limit, right?



https://www.cirquedusoleil.com/en/api/cpvs/phoenix/verification.aspx?targetitem=E4B159F6-E535-4024-8FC7-711BAFDBB6F3&partneritem=BD85462A-2625-432B-8C12-90F8C323DCBA&lang=en

It's on me. (Just charge it.) biggrin.gif

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post #93 of 411 Old 03-11-2014, 06:27 AM
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Lol @ that picture of the PC with cigs and beer cans. Just lol.

-

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post #94 of 411 Old 03-11-2014, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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So....as we expected...nobody local to test the amplifier. Do you guys think we can raise $300 for shipping alone to send the amp to bassthathz?

Denon 4311ci with Mini DSP and antimodeL/R -DIYSOUND tempest towers (40" tall towers)C - DIYSOUND alchemy 8LS/RS - community D6MACHTSUB SYSTEM2-Stereo Integrity HST-18 D1 subs (happy dance) in dual 12 cuft ported tuned 16hzSub amp- Speakerpower SP2-12000
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post #95 of 411 Old 03-11-2014, 11:51 AM
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Maybe you could get Brian Oppegaard from Speakerpower to test it. He has done comparative testing on a number of amps. He certainly has the equipment and knowledge, though I doubt has much spare time.

http://www.speakerpower.net/comparative-performance.html
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post #96 of 411 Old 03-11-2014, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paskal9 View Post

care to explain what is a spec-an?
Spectrum analyser.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paskal9 View Post

and also, i find it hard to believe that a soundcard will give less distortion than a signal generator.
Believe whatever you want. I have quite a bit of experience in measuring analog signals, and my experience tells me different. Most signal generators theses days, such as those in an Audio Precision are digital and there are many good soundcards out there such as the MAudio 24/192 and the EMU1212 that better any analog generator I've seen available at a similar price. Much, much more flexible too.
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post #97 of 411 Old 03-11-2014, 12:42 PM
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I PM'd Langston Holland a couple of days ago, but no response frown.gif


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post #98 of 411 Old 03-11-2014, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Spectrum analyser.
Believe whatever you want. I have quite a bit of experience in measuring analog signals, and my experience tells me different. Most signal generators theses days, such as those in an Audio Precision are digital and there are many good soundcards out there such as the MAudio 24/192 and the EMU1212 that better any analog generator I've seen available at a similar price. Much, much more flexible too.
i still have an EMU0404 from my hifi days. which i stored in some box somewhere.
speaking of which, i also have a spectrum analyser.

if measurement precision is the utmost priority, then it's gonna be too expensive for the average person to carry out these tests.
furthermore, it's audio. it makes no difference 0.1% THD and 0.000000001% THD. the human ear can't differentiate that small. the speaker driver and room will add a lot more distortion to it.

it's nice to throw around numbers. but at -120db?

that's 2 microvolt-something. do an average person have access to measure something that low? i do. do you?

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post #99 of 411 Old 03-11-2014, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paskal9 View Post


if measurement precision is the utmost priority, then it's gonna be too expensive for the average person to carry out these tests.
My point was that it takes a decent soundcard and appropriate software to do audio <50kHz BW to high precision.
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Originally Posted by paskal9 View Post

furthermore, it's audio. it makes no difference 0.1% THD and 0.000000001% THD. the human ear can't differentiate that small. the speaker driver and room will add a lot more distortion to it.
The point is to have the measurement gear enough better than the lowest level signal you need to detect reliably. The point of this test is to see how an amplifier performs so doing it with poor test gear defeats the purpose. You also need the test gear to be quiet to do good SNR tests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paskal9 View Post

it's nice to throw around numbers. but at -120db?
Yes, easily.
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Originally Posted by paskal9 View Post

that's 2 microvolt-something. do an average person have access to measure something that low? i do. do you?
Yes. And yes.
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post #100 of 411 Old 03-11-2014, 10:27 PM
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Sine wave test it, no guts, no glory smile.gif

Have the camera rolling to capture any smoke if it manifests.
Scott Simonian and jpmst3 like this.



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #101 of 411 Old 03-11-2014, 10:53 PM
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It was only a matter of time...

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post #102 of 411 Old 03-12-2014, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

My point was that it takes a decent soundcard and appropriate software to do audio <50kHz BW to high precision.
The point is to have the measurement gear enough better than the lowest level signal you need to detect reliably. The point of this test is to see how an amplifier performs so doing it with poor test gear defeats the purpose. You also need the test gear to be quiet to do good SNR tests.
Yes, easily.
Yes. And yes.
then i rest my case.
good luck.

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post #103 of 411 Old 03-12-2014, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

Sine wave test it, no guts, no glory smile.gif

Have the camera rolling to capture any smoke if it manifests.

Hey! There's thy! smile.gif

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post #104 of 411 Old 03-12-2014, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paskal9 View Post

... it makes no difference 0.1% THD and 0.000000001% THD. the human ear can't differentiate that small.

That may not be as safe as assertion as it seems; IIRC .1% can be audible depending on the fundamental and which harmonic, i.e. 20 Hz and its 6th harmonic at 1280 Hz.

Noah
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post #105 of 411 Old 03-12-2014, 10:50 AM
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^^^^^^^^^^^

I think he was overemphasizing the circumstances but you are right too. wink.gif


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post #106 of 411 Old 03-12-2014, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

That may not be as safe as assertion as it seems; IIRC .1% can be audible depending on the fundamental and which harmonic, i.e. 20 Hz and its 6th harmonic at 1280 Hz.
the thread focusses on measuring an amp for sub duties.
which affectively limit the range to about 5hz - 200hz.

sure, a 500mhz scope, or a spectrum analyzer, or a signal source precise to a single microvolt, or a high end audio precision equipment is nice, and increase the measurement accuracy;
but you don't need to go high end since the bandwidth is low.
realistically speaking, it's gonna be hard to find someone with all that high end measurement gear to do these measurement for free.

0.1% thd vs 0.01% thd doesn't mean a thing when audio is concerned. more so with subs. check the distortion tab in rew.

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post #107 of 411 Old 03-12-2014, 09:10 PM
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^^ There are already a number of amp tests on this site, so why not measure the 12k to the same standards and then let the results be comparable?

And as I've already stated, there is likely very little gear the OP needs beyond s/c and something to interface to get signals within the range of the s/c. Pete Millett has a kit, but it's a bit of overkill.
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post #108 of 411 Old 03-13-2014, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Hey! There's thy! smile.gif

I love it when I am fortunate enough to witness a Thy sighting. Him an his 2ohm, multi-kilowatt arrays.

It's like spotting a rare, white buffalo. biggrin.gif


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post #109 of 411 Old 03-13-2014, 02:49 AM
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I remember him saying he tested the tweeters at 1ohm also. LOL Tonnes of knowledge he has. biggrin.gif


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post #110 of 411 Old 03-13-2014, 03:17 AM
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Anyone contact Steve Meade from www.stevemeadedesigns.com/‎ to test the amp? Easiest way to measure the amp would to use one of his amp dyno's. http://www.wccaraudio.com/smd-amp-dyno-ad-1.html
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post #111 of 411 Old 03-13-2014, 12:39 PM
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You likely won't be able to compare my results with that of others.

1) My scope is entirely different (so it "might" be like comparing apples to oranges).
2) My DAC is entirely different. (Although -130db and flat to at least 3hz +-0db, maybe even 1hz... we will find out soon enough.)
3) Some were holding the voltage steady using variacs.
4) Different heater elements / resistance / thermal handling, blaa blaa
5) Temperature, humidity and altitude. I live over 1000ft above sea-level and humidity can fluctuate between 0% and 100% here.

That said; testing my EP4000 will establish a base-line from which to compare to the other online tests (so not all is lost).

My meter will be here in just a few more days.

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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post #112 of 411 Old 03-14-2014, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic1! View Post

Anyone contact Steve Meade from www.stevemeadedesigns.com/? to test the amp? Easiest way to measure the amp would to use one of his amp dyno's. http://www.wccaraudio.com/smd-amp-dyno-ad-1.html
for $2800?

HELL no, I wouldn't buy that unless I had to:

Water Heater elements = $40-70
Garbage Pale = $10-20
Water = Free
wink.gif

The only expensive part is the measuring device.

Besides, the SMD Dyno doesn't tell you the THD or PF or show the waveform (volts and current) etc; and you have no control over the goings on of things.
and it only measures burst power in RMS.

If it sold for $250 and without the load bank, and that the load bank was externally attached B.Y.O. , then it would be a good deal (for something quick and dirty).

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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post #113 of 411 Old 03-14-2014, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djarchow View Post

Maybe you could get Brian Oppegaard from Speakerpower to test it. He has done comparative testing on a number of amps. He certainly has the equipment and knowledge, though I doubt has much spare time.

http://www.speakerpower.net/comparative-performance.html

Somebody mention my name? There are 1 or fewer people with my name in the U.S.A.

So glad I found this thread! Looks like fun! Can I play too? I have gear:
Audio Precision System 22 with burst generator
Audio Precision AUX-000025 Switching Amplifier Measurement Filter
Valhalla 2301 Digital Power Analyzer
Tektronix 2465B scope
8 x 1500W 8 ohm non inductive load resistors
Powerstat 50A variac
Topaz 5KVA ultra-isolating transformer
50A 120/208VAC mains

And I just created an Audio Precision test that does the 40Hz sine wave versus time sweep like in the new CAF (Common Amplifier Format) http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/apples_vs_apples_introducing_the_common_amplifier_format_caf/

PM me with where to send the UPS call tag and I will test the beast and post the results.

Brian
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post #114 of 411 Old 03-14-2014, 05:29 PM
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If you buy it, he will come. biggrin.gif

Achievement Unlocked

Psychotic Episode Averted

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post #115 of 411 Old 03-14-2014, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeakerPower View Post

Somebody mention my name? There are 1 or fewer people with my name in the U.S.A.

So glad I found this thread! Looks like fun! Can I play too? I have gear:
Audio Precision System 22 with burst generator
Audio Precision AUX-000025 Switching Amplifier Measurement Filter
Valhalla 2301 Digital Power Analyzer
Tektronix 2465B scope
8 x 1500W 8 ohm non inductive load resistors
Powerstat 50A variac
Topaz 5KVA ultra-isolating transformer
50A 120/208VAC mains

And I just created an Audio Precision test that does the 40Hz sine wave versus time sweep like in the new CAF (Common Amplifier Format) http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/apples_vs_apples_introducing_the_common_amplifier_format_caf/

PM me with where to send the UPS call tag and I will test the beast and post the results.

Brian

You win this thread.


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post #116 of 411 Old 03-14-2014, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeakerPower View Post

Somebody mention my name? There are 1 or fewer people with my name in the U.S.A.

So glad I found this thread! Looks like fun! Can I play too? I have gear:
Audio Precision System 22 with burst generator
Audio Precision AUX-000025 Switching Amplifier Measurement Filter
Valhalla 2301 Digital Power Analyzer
Tektronix 2465B scope
8 x 1500W 8 ohm non inductive load resistors
Powerstat 50A variac
Topaz 5KVA ultra-isolating transformer
50A 120/208VAC mains

And I just created an Audio Precision test that does the 40Hz sine wave versus time sweep like in the new CAF (Common Amplifier Format) http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/apples_vs_apples_introducing_the_common_amplifier_format_caf/

PM me with where to send the UPS call tag and I will test the beast and post the results.

Brian

Oh my gosh. Our dreams have come true! I will pm you Brian. You are awesome sir! Awesome! biggrin.gif

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post #117 of 411 Old 03-14-2014, 07:06 PM
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Throw that thing on the bench! now we’re movein.. way to go Brian.

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post #118 of 411 Old 03-14-2014, 07:54 PM
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If you'd like to toss an IPR7500 into the mix I'd be willing to contribute one as well.
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post #119 of 411 Old 03-14-2014, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeakerPower View Post

Can I play too? I have gear:
Audio Precision System 22 with burst generator
Audio Precision AUX-000025 Switching Amplifier Measurement Filter
Valhalla 2301 Digital Power Analyzer
Tektronix 2465B scope
8 x 1500W 8 ohm non inductive load resistors
Powerstat 50A variac
Topaz 5KVA ultra-isolating transformer
50A 120/208VAC mains

Brian

Brian your meter has a lot of nice capabilities.



But why then, with all that nice gear, in this test here you didn't show any of that?
http://www.speakerpower.net/comparative-performance.html

Just the output wattage, for seemingly-random amounts of non-comparative time at mostly-unknown frequencies?
Come on now. wink.gif
Why not post the FULL details here on AVS? the FR, THD, SNR and all that. (If you saved them, that would be awesome.)

Ok, maybe your target audience on your website is meant for the average-joe who would otherwise be confused and overloaded by all the metrics thrown at them. (Fair enough, I could understand that.)

However, when I conduct my tests here on AVS, I will hold nothing back, all will be revealed, good or bad; and it will be fully documented to the maximum detail possible.

Also since we are back on this topic, I don't think you ever did answer my question when I originally asked you why you thought the iTech12k was too "powerful" for the 50amp circuit to seemingly "handle" on the dual 2-ohm test,
does it deliver the juice or doesn't it? Doesn't matter what the efficiency is. So it costs $100 per year more to operate, no biggie, just fully document all the abilities of all the amps wink.gif




No offence but, I can't help but think that you will tend to bias the tests in favor of your SpeakerPower brand amps. (and as you should, being the CEO\CTO of the company and all wink.gifbiggrin.gif)

With all that nice gear, we will all be expecting a test equal-to or better-than the detail provided in the existing AVS measurment-thread of 7 years ago: http://www.avsforum.com/t/855865/measuring-amplifiers

Make it so! biggrin.gif

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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BassThatHz is offline  
post #120 of 411 Old 03-14-2014, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

for $2800?

HELL no, I wouldn't buy that unless I had to:

Water Heater elements = $40-70
Garbage Pale = $10-20
Water = Free
wink.gif

The only expensive part is the measuring device.

Besides, the SMD Dyno doesn't tell you the THD or PF or show the waveform (volts and current) etc; and you have no control over the goings on of things.
and it only measures burst power in RMS.

If it sold for $250 and without the load bank, and that the load bank was externally attached B.Y.O. , then it would be a good deal (for something quick and dirty).

He does amp test Tuesdays on his site where people can sent in amps to get tested.
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